Findmall.com
 
 






Minelab Explorer Classroom Forum


Welcome! Log In Register
Re: How fast do they sink in the soil?
Posted by: dippodigger
Date: December 26, 2009 09:32AM
I agree and this information is very useful.

avatar
How dense is the dirt in your area?
Posted by: Rich (Utah)
Date: December 27, 2009 02:54AM
I have a composter in the back yard that I toss grass clippings, garden trimmings and other organic stuff into. It is amazing how much organic material this thing will swallow. It takes quite a bit of organic material to get a relatively small amount of dirt.

As was mentioned in a post above, the organic breakdown process is accomplished through a number of different ways; micro organisms, insects, worms, animals and so forth. It doesn't all happen at once. It would seem that the higher the volume of decaying material the greater the amount of dirt it would be converted into over time. Thus, a well watered and nutrient rich lawn would grow more rapidly than one that is dry and lacking nutrients. This in turn would created more organic material faster that would need to compost making for a thicker layer of material in the process at any given time.

My compost pile, which has a couple feet of organic material not yet composted on the surface, is an extreme example of what is occurring on the ground of a lawn area. As you get deeper into the compost pile, the material becomes heavier and more dense.

If I were to place a coin on the top of the compost pile (and not add any additional organic material) would the coin remain 'on the surface' or would it 'sink or fall' thru the less dense material until it reached some sort of equilibrium with the surrounding dirt matrix?

Also, as I've taken thousands of lawn cores over the years with my hole hog, the average lawn around here has 1/2"-3/4" of thatch and other organic debris in the process of being decomposed on the surface. After that, the dirt is pretty consistent down several inches. The grass roots, which must contribute in some way to all of this, will typically reach from 2" to 5" inches deep, depending on how well the lawn is watered. Dry lawns will have shallower root systems, watered lawns deeper.

Is this what you see out there when you are hunting lawn areas?


Rich (Utah)



:minelab: etrac powered by RNB :thumbup:

avatar
Re: How fast do they sink in the soil?
Posted by: rbholt80
Date: December 27, 2009 02:43PM
coins may not sink much compared to the build up of earth ontop of them but things do sink in soil.
my fathers house was build on cinder blocks as many are done in southeast texas and the house was built in 93. it was 3 feet off the ground when new but now is only 2 feet off the ground. he did bring in dirt around the house to make it look like it sank it actualy has sunk a foot. i had an old trailer on my land when i bought my land. that trailer had wheels lol redneck. but anyway after teen years i sold that junk trailer. the guy that scrapped it couldnt see the wheels and asked me if had any on it. i told him yea and went to show him. well when i got out there i couldnt see any wheels on it so we started digging and found them. the trailer had sank all the way down to the frame covering the wheels.
so things do sink in soil. maybe not as much for coins but there is sinking. i still say its mostly covering from decay and things but there has to be a small amount of sinking.

Nice posts, but all I know is that when I get a signal 6 inch or more in an older area it's usually something good.N/T
Posted by: Andrus(ut)
Date: December 28, 2009 05:58PM

(This message does not contain any text.)


Re: How fast do they sink in the soil?
Posted by: KurtB
Date: December 28, 2009 06:21PM
Tom Dankowski wrote an interesting article about the sink rate. He has a website you could probably find it on there somewhere.

Kurt

Re: How fast do they sink in the soil?
Posted by: Jason illinois
Date: December 28, 2009 07:03PM
I think one thing to consider is whether the place the coin lands when it is lost was compacted by footsteps, horses and wagons etc. before the coin was initially lost. I have found some coins on the surface of old trails sitting right where they dropped 100+ years before.

Then there are areas that have been trampled a little but gravity and rain and worms and roots and freezes and thaws over the years let the heavy coins sink down into the earth.
Then there are areas with 8 inch deep memorials that have never been compressed and swallow coins and suck them down into the deep abyss.

Put a coin on the surface of a cup of dirt full of worms and see if it stays on the top!

avatar
Being dense
Posted by: Rich (Utah)
Date: December 29, 2009 03:26PM
I google'd Dankowski's name and found his website as well as the article you referred to. Very interesting reading.

In a nutshell, Tom D planned to do some detector testing on a beach and brought a womans wedding bad with a long thread attached so it wouldn't get lost. He set it on the wet sand and prepared to begin his testing. When he looked back for the ring, it was gone. Inspecting the thread, he found that within a couple minutes, the gold ring had sunk approx. 24" until it came to a firm base beneath the sand.

From this he suggests that when beach hunting look for areas of hardpan, where heavy items would come to rest, like gold being found on bedrock.

He does some additional testing with coils of various sizes at an inland location that has been undisturbed to the best of his knowledge for over 100 yrs. He begins searching a measured area with a small coil and working his way up to an 8" and then 10.5" coil, He hunts from 3 different directions with each coil. With the two smaller coils, he finds few coins, 2 for each coil at. When he uses the large coil, he finally finds a large number of coins, mostly from the 20's, at a depth of 10-11".

He observed that the coins are layered in depth by age of coin. Deeper he goes, the older the coins become. The bigger the coils he uses, the deeper he goes. After his testing, he returns his detector to the factory for unrelated repairs and when returned, finds that it not only has it been repaired, but fine tuned as well, getting an additional 2" of depth on a dime sized target. He returns to his measured area and finds even more coins, from the late 1800's at depths of 10-13".

He surmises that the sink rate of the coins has everything to do with soil density. In application, coins and jewelry will reach a depth of equalibrium where the density of the dirt surrounding the coin is the same as that of the coin. Surface area of the object must be taken into account as well.

****************

This example makes sense to me. If we want to answer the question of "How coins come to rest where they do?", I think we have the following variables:

1. weight and shape of object
2. density of the ground on which the object is lost.
3. wind and water erosion or deposition
4. accumulation of organic material (location dependant i.e. bare dirt, grass, forest floor, etc)
5. outside forces - digging or dumping of dirt, animals, insects, roots of vegetation,

6. freeze / thaw cycle.

Anything else that should be added?


Anybody care to chime in on the freeze / thaw cycle?

Rich (Utah)



:minelab: etrac powered by RNB :thumbup:

Re: How fast do they sink in the soil?
Posted by: SaltnPeppersPlace
Date: June 12, 2012 01:24PM
Just how important is depth? Why do objects sink at different rates? Ever hear statements like, gold is so-o-o-o elusive? Read on; I think you will be pleasantly surprised with the knowledge of basic physics.

There are so many misconceptions about these questions that I feel the urgency to clarify these questions. I too have heard gross statements / fallacies / misconceptions AND coming from reasonably intelligent people to boot! If there is one word I want you to remember out of this article it would be, without fail, DENSITY! For the hobbyist its moderately important. For the amateur or the professional detectorist it is critical.

Recently, I went to the beach to perform a comparison test between two leading brand detectors. My test target was a womans simple gold band of medium thickness. I had about 35 inches of thin dental floss tied to the ring so I would not loose it. I dropped the ring on the wet sand (holding on to the floss), set my shovel down, placed the headphones on my head and set the controls of the detector. Now, I was ready to dig a measured depth hole in the sand to bury the ring. When I looked down at the ring, it was gone! As I held the floss with only a slight amount of slack, I watched the ring sink slowly to a depth of 23 inches before it stopped sinking. Why did it sink? What made it stop sinking? Was this an unusual, unique circumstance? This couldnt be a better example to demonstrate the principles of density. First, gold is a very dense material in relative comparison to other items we have here on earth. For a better understanding of density here is a correct illustration. Take the new United States clad dime. It weighs 2.27 grams. Now look at a United States quarter-eagle ($2.50 gold piece). It is nearly identical in diameter and thickness compared to the United States dime. In fact, it displaces the exact amount as the dime. But, the quarter eagle weighs 4.18 grams. Thats nearly twice the weight! The gold piece has nearly twice the density as in comparison to the clad piece. Now, which identical size coin do you think would sink faster? ! !

Back to the ring on the beach. It weighs about the same as a dime and is about the same diameter. However, its surface contact area on the ground is dramatically different from a dime. The ring has a hairline thin circle of contact with the ground whereas the dime has about half-an-inch of surface area contact. The ring was sinking at a rate visible to the naked eye. Heres why; Due to the force of gravity, objects will sink in whatever medium they are in. This will continue until the level of density of the medium is the same as the object's density. OR!---Until the object comes in contact with another object in which its sink rate then becomes the same as the obstructing object's sink rate. The semi-liquid state of the sand on the beach is a much less dense medium in comparison to the ring, hence the sink-rate. At 23 inches deep, the ring came to rest. Why? The answer is hardpan! The ring hit a crushed shell/gravel layer at 23 inches within a time period of approximately 3 minutes. This is not an unusual circumstance by any means. Different areas may produce faster or slower results. A coin would take a bit longer due to its surface contact area and decreased density but would also eventually come to rest on the hardpan. A light aluminum pull-tab or a piece of foil has about the same density as its supporting medium (the wet sand) so it may never sink or can be found at any random churned depth. If you are at the beach and you are finding a lot of light/low density items such as foil or pull-tabs, MOVE! Move to other areas to sample until you hit medium density (coins) or high density (gold/lead) items to suit your interest UNLESS your shovel keeps finding hardpan just a few inches deep. Make sense? If you randomly go to the beach and you randomly hunt, your luck will be random. If you intelligently select your beach time, the laws of physics will overrule the so-called elusiveness of gold. What times are these? It is a known fact that violent storms will bring in large volumes of offshore sand and some good items; however, this is not the time to hunt. The high-density items will be out of detectable range. When sand is removed because of riptides or storms this increases the chance of hardpan exposure. It does not happen often but when it does, you will have some of the best detecting times of your life! Incidentally, depth has nearly no relevancy to the age of an item at the beach. A brand new penny can sink several feet deep in just a few hours. As long as your detector is capable of reaching the hardpan, only then does depth become not so critical. Make sure that your detector can attain this depth then the key secret is detectable volume. An 8-inch coil will detect approximately one gallon of ground at any given time. Increase your coil size by just 3 inches (11-inch coil) and you will be detecting about 7 gallons of ground at any given time. Your finds will increase 7-fold. Target separation is very poor with a large coil but on a vast beach, area coverage is much more important and target separation becomes inconsequential.

For the majority of us that do not live near a beach, unsuspectingly, depth is more critical than meets the eye. On a sacred piece of property known to produce good finds in Titusville, Florida I brought several pieces of equipment in the field to prove a theory. Equipment: a 5 inch coil, an 8 inch coil, a 10.5 inch coil, and a Fisher CZ6a metal detector. With the 5-inch coil I searched a 110ft by 95ft area of land. It took 2 days to complete, deliberately searching the land from 3 different directions. I found only 2 coins from the early 1960s at 8.5 inches deep. Keep in mind this property did not consist of any fill-dirt nor was the ground ever disturbed by machinery - its virgin soil. I then switched to the h coil and duplicated my previous steps exactly. The coil change gave me an itional 1.5 inches of depth. At 10 inches I recovered two more coins, both from the early 1950s. Then I put the large 10.5-inch coil on the Fisher and with identical settings on the detector I searched again. This coil gave me yet another one-inch depth increase on a dime. Guess what? I recovered 17 coins just over 11 inches deep and one quarter at 13 inches deep! The 10-inch mark exposed coins from the early 1950s. The 11-inch mark exposed coins, every single one of them, from the 1920s era. One-inch depth increase yielded coins 30 years older. Does depth matter? ! ! ! Were not finished yet! Weeks go by and somehow I damaged my detector, a fault of my own. Fisher repairs the detector and increases the sensitivity. Consequently, they also increase the stability of the unit to which I must say that I have never owned a detector with this much stability. With the 10.5-inch coil installed I, once again, searched the same 110ft by 95ft area. Certain the area was cleaned out; I soon realized my misconception. How about 14 more coins at the 12-inch mark and another quarter just over 13 inches deep, all from the 1890s era. Love is deep! ! ! And to solidify my test I reinstalled the 8-inch coil back on the detector and passed over 4 of the targets before I recovered them. With the 8-inch coil, I never even received a false chatter or any indication that a target existed. With the 10.5-inch coil, the signals were very weak but consistently repeatable. Yes, depth is invisibly critical. How do you know what you are missing, if you do not know that it even exists! As a coin sinks in the earth, the deeper it goes the slower it will sink because the dirt is more compacted at depth. Once again, the coin will stop sinking when it reaches the level in the soil that is compacted enough to equal the density of the coin; and thats deep! How many areas do you think you have passed over and missed good targets? I think that you would be startled if I were to tell you that the answer would be just about every time you turn on your detector. When your favorite manufacturer releases a new detector that goes a little deeper, you will have major things to look forward to.

Re: How fast do they sink in the soil?
Posted by: Hobo lobo
Date: June 12, 2012 08:53PM
According to that theory pull tabs would never sink, the S.G. of alum. is about the same as soil or sand. Im sure all of us have dug pull tabs 5 or 6 inchs deep in places that are not filled or tilled. How abou ancient
cities being uncovered by archeolgist, many feet down. Did they sink and still remain intact? I think sometimes objects do sink ( like on the beach) but in many or most intances they just get covered I used to metal detect for gold nuggets in the desert and I have found them on the surface with desert varnish on the exposed side. I don't know how long it takes for the varnish to form, but its a long time. In the absent of vegatation the nugget was still on the surface, and it is 6 times as dense as sand.

Re: How fast do they sink in the soil?
Posted by: john sullivan
Date: June 13, 2012 09:01PM
i think we are looking too far an object will continue to sink untill the medium it is in ,equals the the weight of the object. have you ever found an alluminum can deep? copper is a hebercide will kill vegatation. figure that into the penny grass thought.

Re: How fast do they sink in the soil?
Posted by: Hobo lobo
Date: June 13, 2012 09:57PM
"an object will continue to sink untill the medium it is in ,equals the the weight of the object"

What does that mean?

Yes I have dug alum cans and lots alum slaw and pull tabs. In areas where there is no vegatation (desert) I have seen heavy objects on the surface for over 100 years.I also have detected galena (natural lead)on the surface that has been trheremuch longer than that, mabee thousands of yrs

avatar
Re: How fast do they sink in the soil?
Posted by: Coilfisher
Date: June 13, 2012 11:59PM
I found an 1891 Indian Head last week that was only an inch down.
Could not believe my eyes.

Re: How fast do they sink in the soil?
Posted by: john sullivan
Date: June 14, 2012 06:51AM
you throw a nickel into a swiming pool it will sink to the bottom, why?

Re: How fast do they sink in the soil?
Posted by: Hobo lobo
Date: June 14, 2012 08:52AM
Quote
john sullivan
you throw a nickel into a swiming pool it will sink to the bottom, why?
???????????????????

Why does a steel battle ship float.?

And someone once said there are no dumb questions.

Re: How fast do they sink in the soil?
Posted by: john sullivan
Date: June 14, 2012 10:39AM
there are some sitting on the bottom

Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login