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Tracking
Posted by: oleterryg
Date: January 22, 2017 03:45PM
Racer tracking question. In live detecting, is this a selection that's used often?

I take delivery on a Racer this coming Wednesday. I printed the instructions manual and read it pretty throughly. Tracking I'm lost on

Tracking - - - Here's something the original Racer and Racer 2 have in common ...
Posted by: Monte
Date: January 22, 2017 04:17PM
Racer … Pg. 14
TRACKING


It is recommended that you use TRACKING in the All Metal mode and not in the discrimination
modes (Two Tone, Three Tone and Beach) for the best performance.


Racer 2 … Pg. 17
TRACKING


It is recommended that you use TRACKING in the All Metal mode and not in the discrimination
modes (Two Tone, Three Tone, Beach and Deep) for the best performance.

So if you are searching in any of the motion-based Discriminate modes, Manually GB or use the Automated (Ground Grab concept) GB then hunt. Do NOT use Tracking.

Monte



"Your EYES ... the only 100% accurate form of Discrimination!"

Stinkwater Wells
Trading Post

Metal Detector Evaluations and Product Reviews
'How-To' help for Coin & Jewelry Hunting, Relic Hunting and Useful Techniques.

My Regular-Use Detectors:
Nokta: Two each of the following: Impact, FORS Relic and FORS CoRe
Tesoro: Vaquero, Silver Sabre µMAX and Mojave
White's: MX7

Other Specialty-Use Detectors from:
Compass, Makro, Nokta, Tesoro and White's
Note: Detectors are listed alphabetically by Brand, NOT in my order of preference for use. Additional search coils on-hand in accessory bags.

Pinpointers: Using Nokta and Makro Pointers.
Headphones: Using White's Pro Star Headphones w/'tank style' ear cups.
Recovery Tools: Using White's Ground Hawg shovel and Digmaster digging tool

*** All working well today to make memories for tomorrow. ***

monte@stinkwaterwells.com .. or .. monte@ahrps.org
(503) 481-8147


Re: Tracking - - - Here's something the original Racer and Racer 2 have in common ...
Posted by: oleterryg
Date: January 22, 2017 04:54PM
Monte,
Thanks for the info. Pretty straightforward. I guess I was trying to make it difficult. Do you use the all metal mode a lot? I am thinking you wrote that you used 2 tone most of the time. Perhaps not.

All Metal mode use? Yes, on occasion.
Posted by: Monte
Date: January 23, 2017 12:45AM
Quote
oleterryg
Monte,
Thanks for the info. Pretty straightforward. I guess I was trying to make it difficult. Do you use the all metal mode a lot? I am thinking you wrote that you used 2 tone most of the time. Perhaps not.
Yes, like many things we find in a well written User Manual, I have found they often go overlooked by many. You're not alone, I can guarantee you. By the way, the Makro and Nokta User Manuals are some of the best written and thorough manuals I have read from manufacturers in decades.


Yes, again when it comes to trying to comprehend a new-to-use detector because many people do tend to make things more 'difficult' that it should be. I know there are some manuals I have read through the years that can seem a bit 'complex' at times, but often people have more difficulty than I think they should. The best rule of thumb in tying to learn any detectors is:

1.. Read the manual, carefully and completely, front to back.
2.. Take notes while reading the manual of anything you don't quite understand in order to try and get the specific answers your need.
3.. Keep it simple. Don't get ahead of yourself while trying to learn how and why a manufacturer designed ALL of the features, modes and look for 'specialty-use' functions, just keep-it-simple and learn the basics. Then, in time, it will all come to you easily as you use the detector and learn the detector.

I've been using and learning detectors for 5.2 decades so I was fortunate to be part of that mode introduction back in '74 and '75 when we got out first VLF, Threshold-based, All Metal mode detectors. After 9-10 years of using BFO's and TR's and TR-Disc. models it was really beneficial to finally get a detector in-hand that cancelled the ground mineral effects as it made it much easier to search areas of varied ground mineral make-up, especially those that had rough, uneven terrain. Into the latter '70s and, for me, right up to July of '83, I still preferred the 2-mode detectors that incorporated a ground cancelling All Metal mode and a conventional TR-Disc. mode to help 'classify' targets (using Discrimination).

I had used some of the VLF-Disc. models since '78/'79, but I didn't care for the very brisk sweep speed those first models required to ground compensate and Discriminate at the same time. In July of '83 we got our first better slow-motion, silent-search VLF-Disc. model and that's when I started to transition away from a VLF/TR-Disc. model. I still used them, but less and less. I also have eliminated a lot of my use of the traditional Threshold-based All Metal mode, but definitely not completely.

I still use the All Metal mode quite often when hunting larger, open, sparse-target location's such as plowed pastureland, open range land, some fresh-water beaches, and when I am doing some contract Cache Hunting, etc. I mainly Relic Hunt and most often it is in densely iron infested sites .... but .... I also get out and work the fringe areas where target encounters are far less frequent and I then opt for the All Metal mode. I can hear a nearby target on a sweep that can be missed if using a Discriminate mode that usually requires a more 'direct' sweep for the coil to pass over the targets and not just close-by.

Otherwise, if I am Relic Hunting in very dense trash that includes annoying things like rusty tin and such, or for some very trashy modern Coin Hunting places like around picnic sites that have a lot of old bottle caps with other debris, I tend to use a multi-tone Disc. mode, such as the 3-Tone on the Racer 2, FORS CoRe or Relic. Otherwise, for most searches in lower-target sites, or when the primary trash target tends to be iron nails, a 2-Tone search mode is going to be my choice.

I hope that helps.

Monte



"Your EYES ... the only 100% accurate form of Discrimination!"

Stinkwater Wells
Trading Post

Metal Detector Evaluations and Product Reviews
'How-To' help for Coin & Jewelry Hunting, Relic Hunting and Useful Techniques.

My Regular-Use Detectors:
Nokta: Two each of the following: Impact, FORS Relic and FORS CoRe
Tesoro: Vaquero, Silver Sabre µMAX and Mojave
White's: MX7

Other Specialty-Use Detectors from:
Compass, Makro, Nokta, Tesoro and White's
Note: Detectors are listed alphabetically by Brand, NOT in my order of preference for use. Additional search coils on-hand in accessory bags.

Pinpointers: Using Nokta and Makro Pointers.
Headphones: Using White's Pro Star Headphones w/'tank style' ear cups.
Recovery Tools: Using White's Ground Hawg shovel and Digmaster digging tool

*** All working well today to make memories for tomorrow. ***

monte@stinkwaterwells.com .. or .. monte@ahrps.org
(503) 481-8147


Re: All Metal mode use? Yes, on occasion.
Posted by: oleterryg
Date: January 23, 2017 10:37AM
Thanks again, Monte.
Now reading the manual again, yellowing in stuff most important for initial use, and taking notes. I am most happy that you guys like your Makros. Encouraging to a new owner.

Re: Tracking
Posted by: oleterryg
Date: January 23, 2017 06:12PM
I believe GB will prove to be the most difficult to learn on the Racer. I'll get it down, just saying it will take some practice, especially to get the most out of the machine. My ACE 200 doesn't have a GB feature. Pondering.

avatar
Re: Tracking
Posted by: Cal_Cobra
Date: January 23, 2017 06:32PM
Quote
oleterryg
I believe GB will prove to be the most difficult to learn on the Racer. I'll get it down, just saying it will take some practice, especially to get the most out of the machine. My ACE 200 doesn't have a GB feature. Pondering.

The ground grab or auto GB is easy, just pump the coil while holding the trigger in the GB mode, and it'll beep when it's ready. I usually will continue to pump the coil and consider it completed after it's beeped three times.

I know some machines are exceedingly critical when it comes to ground balancing, I haven't thus far noticed that to be the case on the Racers as long as you make sure you do it on clean ground. I did use the auto-tracking feature quite a bit on the Red Racer and thought that it worked pretty well in disc mode, but on my R2 I've only done the ground grab method.

HH,
Cal

Re: Tracking
Posted by: oleterryg
Date: January 23, 2017 07:08PM
Cal, thanks for the information. This is all new to me, and it helps to get repeated or different views. I play music, all muscle and mind memory. Hoping for the same with this detector.

avatar
Re: Tracking
Posted by: Cal_Cobra
Date: January 23, 2017 07:49PM
Quote
oleterryg
Cal, thanks for the information. This is all new to me, and it helps to get repeated or different views. I play music, all muscle and mind memory. Hoping for the same with this detector.

Learn the audio the Racer speaks, and your audio muscle/mind memory will serve you well :thumbup:

Re: Tracking
Posted by: oleterryg
Date: January 23, 2017 08:58PM
Gotcha on that, Cal.

avatar
Re: Tracking - - - Here's something the original Racer and Racer 2 have in common ...
Posted by: Stoof-tabsallday
Date: January 30, 2017 08:17PM
Quote
Monte
Racer … Pg. 14
TRACKING


It is recommended that you use TRACKING in the All Metal mode and not in the discrimination
modes (Two Tone, Three Tone and Beach) for the best performance.


Racer 2 … Pg. 17
TRACKING


It is recommended that you use TRACKING in the All Metal mode and not in the discrimination
modes (Two Tone, Three Tone, Beach and Deep) for the best performance.

So if you are searching in any of the motion-based Discriminate modes, Manually GB or use the Automated (Ground Grab concept) GB then hunt. Do NOT use Tracking.

Monte
Sorry for this being the wrong place to ask you Monte, but is this the same for the first relic? Do they recommend only using ground tracking in Gen allmetal mode?
Again I know it's not the right place but didn't want to start a whole topic for a quick answer.

Great to know for my racer 2 though!!



Stefan (Michigan)

Nokta Fors Relic 7x11", 5.5x10"DD, 5", 5.5x10 Concentric


Makro Racer 2 - 7x11", 5.5x10", 5" DD


:tesoro: Mojave
:tesoro: Deleon - Troy shadow super 7",
:tesoro: Compadre 8
:tesoro: Compadre 5.75
:tesoro: Bandido II Micromax
:tesoro: Outlaw
:tesoro: Cibola- GB/all metal toggle mod
:tesoro: Vaquero
:tesoro: Cutlass Micromax 8

Lots of coils

*Not listed in any special order*

Tools:
Garrett carrot, lesche shovel, Killer B Wasps, my bare hands

'Stoof' here's an easy answer regarding tracking and some other reminders regarding your other model.
Posted by: Monte
Date: January 30, 2017 10:28PM
Quote
Stoof-tabsallday
Sorry for this being the wrong place to ask you Monte, but is this the same for the first relic?
I don't think it is any trouble posting it here because most Nokta users and followers also check out the Makro Forums, and honestly, I know many avid detectorists who own a Racer and/or Racer 2 and also own and use a Nokta FORS CoRe and/or FORS Relic. Yes, it is the same.


Quote
Stoof-tabsallday
Do they recommend only using ground tracking in Gen allmetal mode?
Yes, Ground Tracking suggestions are the same for both the FORS CoRe and FORS Relic.

Here's where you can find their reference in the User Manuals:

FORS CoRe Pg. 19:
For better performance, we recommend you to use Ground Tracking in the General Search
mode and not in the discrimination (DI2, DI3 and COG) modes.



FORS Relic Pg. 18:
For better performance, we recommend you to use Ground Tracking in the General Search
mode and not in the discrimination (DI2, DI3, COG, DEP and SWT) modes.



Quote
Stoof-tabsallday
Again I know it's not the right place but didn't want to start a whole topic for a quick answer.

Great to know for my racer 2 though!!
Here are a couple of other reminders in the User Manuals, and it's the same suggestions for the Makro Racer series models as found in their User Manuals:


FORS CoRe Pg. 6 and FORS Relic Pg. 4
Adjust the height of the shaft so that you are
standing in an upright position, your arm is
relaxed and the search coil is approximately 5cm
(~2'') above the ground.


Many detector users, unfamiliar with such things as ground mineral interference causing an overload or warping the EMF is a search coil is worked too closely to the ground with our modern high-gain detectors errantly 'scrub' the search coils, which is a very bad decision for several reasons, or work it too closely to the ground. The suggestion here, and for the Racer series, is to keep a search coils give-or-take about 2" off the ground.

I usually work my coils in pretty much the 1½"-2" height. Most major manufacturers also suggest keeping the coil close-to but not in contact with the soil, and I have seen Operator Manual suggestions of anywhere from 1" to maybe 1"-2" and even some in the past decade or two that suggested 2"-3" off-the-ground, but, if I recall, they used a larger-size search coil. I feel the 1½-2" distance is very functional and eliminates some in-the-field problems.


FORS CoRe Pg. 19 and FORS Relic Pg. 17
IMPORTANT! Experienced detectorists adjust the ground balance setting to little positive
response (when lowering the search coil a weak but an audible response is heard). This
method may result in positive results for smaller objects in certain regions when used by
experienced users.


The manuals from Makro & Nokta are very complete and well written.

Monte



"Your EYES ... the only 100% accurate form of Discrimination!"

Stinkwater Wells
Trading Post

Metal Detector Evaluations and Product Reviews
'How-To' help for Coin & Jewelry Hunting, Relic Hunting and Useful Techniques.

My Regular-Use Detectors:
Nokta: Two each of the following: Impact, FORS Relic and FORS CoRe
Tesoro: Vaquero, Silver Sabre µMAX and Mojave
White's: MX7

Other Specialty-Use Detectors from:
Compass, Makro, Nokta, Tesoro and White's
Note: Detectors are listed alphabetically by Brand, NOT in my order of preference for use. Additional search coils on-hand in accessory bags.

Pinpointers: Using Nokta and Makro Pointers.
Headphones: Using White's Pro Star Headphones w/'tank style' ear cups.
Recovery Tools: Using White's Ground Hawg shovel and Digmaster digging tool

*** All working well today to make memories for tomorrow. ***

monte@stinkwaterwells.com .. or .. monte@ahrps.org
(503) 481-8147


avatar
Re: 'Stoof' here's an easy answer regarding tracking and some other reminders regarding your other model.
Posted by: Stoof-tabsallday
Date: January 30, 2017 10:32PM
Very nice Monte and thanks.
For my first 2 months with my relic I was using ground tracking lol. But later shut it off because of it going nuts when lying horizontal during digs. Constantly trying to re-adjust.
So turns out I did right, but for a different reason.
As always Monte, thank you.



Stefan (Michigan)

Nokta Fors Relic 7x11", 5.5x10"DD, 5", 5.5x10 Concentric


Makro Racer 2 - 7x11", 5.5x10", 5" DD


:tesoro: Mojave
:tesoro: Deleon - Troy shadow super 7",
:tesoro: Compadre 8
:tesoro: Compadre 5.75
:tesoro: Bandido II Micromax
:tesoro: Outlaw
:tesoro: Cibola- GB/all metal toggle mod
:tesoro: Vaquero
:tesoro: Cutlass Micromax 8

Lots of coils

*Not listed in any special order*

Tools:
Garrett carrot, lesche shovel, Killer B Wasps, my bare hands

Re: Tracking
Posted by: Indotguy
Date: April 07, 2017 04:50AM
I understand that Tracking is not recommended for use in Discrimination modes in the Racers but I can't seem to find out why. Is it because in Tracking mode the detector will GB out a target? Or is it because of what Stoof says in the posting above?

I'll try to answer this for you, Indotguy.
Posted by: Monte
Date: April 08, 2017 01:39PM
Quote
Indotguy
I understand that Tracking is not recommended for use in Discrimination modes in the Racers but I can't seem to find out why. Is it because in Tracking mode the detector will GB out a target? Or is it because of what Stoof says in the posting above?
A quote from the Nokta/Makro User Manuals:

"IMPORTANT! Ensure that TRACKING is off during air tests. Otherwise, the device attempts to perform ground balance on the target and the depth is reduced.
"

If the depth is reduced, the target responsiveness is reduced, or the quality of the response can be effected. So when doing an 'air test,' regardless of the search mode, you want to have Tracking turned 'Off.'

In the real world of detecting, the use of Ground Balance Tracking might be helpful when searching in the Threshold-based All Metal mode. It can sometimes help keep the GB adjusted when working challenging or non-uniform ground mineral make-up, and the operator can monitor how well the Tracking is working as well as many abrupt ground mineral changes or slopes they might encounter.

But you wonder about the motion-based Discriminate modes and the use of Tracking, and there are some additional reasons why it is suggested to NOT use Tracking in the Disc. modes. First we have to note that they caution us that a detector is attempting to read and analyze the target and adjust the GB. It will not 'track' to non-ferrous metal as the tracking is designed to read and analyze and adjust for mineralized and magnetic particulate ground matter as well as rocks, etc.

Rusty decayed matter from ferrous metal objects behaves similar to very mineralized ground, and if searching such a site the detector might try to adjust the GB for the rusted decayed matter. It can also try to adjust the GB for a smaller iron object, and since most 'average' hobbyists tend to use a lot of Discrimination, thus rejecting most or all iron, they wouldn't hear any GB adjusting taking place because there is no Threshold-audio reference in the silent-search Discriminate modes.

Want another reason? Okay, try this one. The detector can only be asked to do so much for us and at some point we might ask too much of it, such as trying to work in a silent search Discriminate mode, use Discrimination to reject unwanted lower-conductive trash targets, and also pass along to us a good-target 'beep.'

This is being accomplished in the Ground Balanced Discriminate mode, and that means the detector is busy trying to filter out the ground mineral signal from the combined ground and metal target signal, and pass along a detected-target response. And it gets a bit trickier for the detector when it is also busy with signal processing to provide us with visual Target ID information, audio Tone ID information, MMI read-out info, etc..

Asking these detectors to also work at reading and analyzing the ground mineral make-up and adjust for that at the same time is kind of like asking a professional drummer to also play the piano at the same time, or a chef to work at making a supreme omelet and also whip up a batch of cookies at the same time. Besides, it also means the Ground Balance Discriminate mode is trying to read the composite ground and targets and filter the ground signal to pass along the target response, and do so while the detector might be busy trying to change the ground signal by Tracking.

There's more to it than that, and I am not an engineer, but I believe I touched on the main points in an understandable, non-technical way that suggests why this manufacturer includes a solid recommendation to NOT use Tracking in a Discriminate mode. I'll conclude with a statement that could be argued, but I know I am right having experienced such problems in the past, and that is most auto-tracking detectors can have some difficulty at times by 'off-tracking' to a target, especially ferrous-based (iron) junk. I've hunted old sites with very deteriorated iron nails and other small iron debris and noted the GB shifting of some auto-tracking models. It has happened to me before, so I know I don't want to, or like to, use Tracking in a motion Discriminate mode.

Monte



"Your EYES ... the only 100% accurate form of Discrimination!"

Stinkwater Wells
Trading Post

Metal Detector Evaluations and Product Reviews
'How-To' help for Coin & Jewelry Hunting, Relic Hunting and Useful Techniques.

My Regular-Use Detectors:
Nokta: Two each of the following: Impact, FORS Relic and FORS CoRe
Tesoro: Vaquero, Silver Sabre µMAX and Mojave
White's: MX7

Other Specialty-Use Detectors from:
Compass, Makro, Nokta, Tesoro and White's
Note: Detectors are listed alphabetically by Brand, NOT in my order of preference for use. Additional search coils on-hand in accessory bags.

Pinpointers: Using Nokta and Makro Pointers.
Headphones: Using White's Pro Star Headphones w/'tank style' ear cups.
Recovery Tools: Using White's Ground Hawg shovel and Digmaster digging tool

*** All working well today to make memories for tomorrow. ***

monte@stinkwaterwells.com .. or .. monte@ahrps.org
(503) 481-8147


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