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R2 swing speed
Posted by: Kapok
Date: April 26, 2017 09:09PM
Getting to know the Racer2 a bit better as this is my first full season with it. Was re-reading the manual and found this head-scratcher:

RACER 2 is a detector with very high detecting speed. When you detect a target with RACER 2, you should make wider passes instead of narrowing the sweeps and making quick sweeps over the target like in other metal detectors, in order to receive an accurate ID from the target. If your swinging speed is not correct, the device may not detect the target accurately and the target ID numbers may bounce.

What are they trying to say here? A slower sweep is required?



Ridding the world of pulltabs, one plug at a time | Makro Racer 2 | Minelab Explorer SE

Re: R2 swing speed
Posted by: NMchaser
Date: April 26, 2017 10:30PM
It sounded confusing to me also 4 months ago when I acquired a Racer 2. I think they are saying that it is okay to swing faster than a normal detector. But, what does faster than a normal detector mean. My normal detector (before the Racer 2) swing speed is variable. For a 4 foot swing in low trash/target area my speed is about 2.5 or 3 seconds. Medium trash/target area maybe a 3 or 4 second swing. High trash/target area swing just fast enough to hear a good target. I have found many good finds in burn sites (burned trash dumps) at ghost towns by swinging very slow maybe 2 or 3 seconds a foot. However the Racer 2 is a different kind of detector. It has such a fast recovery that I have learned to swing a little faster with it.

R2 swing speed
Posted by: Rich (Utah)
Date: April 26, 2017 11:18PM
Find a target and experiment with swing speeds and see what happens. And then find another. I bet before long you'll have a good idea of what the detector does. OH, and try it in different modes as well. I find that DEEP, di3 and di2 respond differently.

Rich -



enjoying the vistas and horizons of the Old West.

Yes, it can be a 'head scratcher,' but I use the ITF Method
Posted by: Monte
Date: April 27, 2017 03:31AM
to determine the ultimate sweep speed for me and for the sites I hunt.

The ITF Method is simply using any detector and coil combination In The Field where I will be dealing with:

• different ground mineral conditions

• site environment, such as an open, unrestricted area compared with a location that has dense brush, rocks, building rubble, etc.

• a sparse-target condition or one that is moderately littered to a very dense trash environment

• encountering smaller-size debris or large pieces of trash, and also know if it is mainly ferrous or non-ferrous discards

• and taking into consideration the type of detector circuitry and the settings used

• and also know the strengths and limitations of the search coil type (Double-D or Concentric) and size (smaller, mid-sized or standard to oversized)

• and we can't forget to consider the size, conductivity, and probable depth of the desired targets we are searching for.


I also like to understand the strengths and limitations of the performance of the detector/coil combination I am using, and in the case of the Makro Racer series and Nokta FORS series and Impact models, they all have the ability to be swept at a somewhat quicker sweep speed than most of the typical double-derivative, slow-motion detectors that have been around. I'll use my personal detector arsenal as a reference, and my Makro and Nokta units can be swept somewhat faster than any of my Tesoro models in most environments, especially if the ground mineral conditions are challenging and the MMI reading is high.

So, as indicated in the cut-and-paste you made from the User Manual, ... YES ... your Racer 2 CAN be used with a somewhat faster sweep speed. The question is, what do all of us consider fast or slow to be? From MY own ITF experiences, in the more mineralized ground I generally hunt in, and with the abundant trashy conditions with an over-supply of iron debris, using any of these models with one of their smaller-size search coils I know my sweep speed capabilities as well as limitations. When conditions are favorable, I might use a little faster sweep.

However, I also determined early on, when using the Nokta FORS CoRe and soon after the original Makro Racer, that these detectors also have the strength of providing me excellent target response, impressive depth of detection, and commendable rejected target recovery to be very functional when I use a reasonably slower sweep speed and methodical search of a site. This is especially true when I have the smaller-size search coils mounted. They let me go slow enough to perform quite well and let me methodically overlap for efficient coverage and even 'scribble' the search coil in and about a small area while I briefly pause when working a site.

Mainly refer to the last sentence they used:

"If your swinging speed is not correct, the device may not detect the target accurately and the target ID numbers may bounce."


That's the reference I relate to, and once I have determined the sweep speed required as well as the slowest sweep rate that I feel still provides me with a 'functional' audio and visual Target ID, them I know the operating range for that detector and settings, with that coil, and in those environments, and I am satisfied. I've done MY part, and if I do MY part well, I have found these detectors to do THEIR part just as efficiently. :thumbup:

Monte



"Your EYES ... the only 100% accurate form of Discrimination!"

Stinkwater Wells
Trading Post

Metal Detector Evaluations and Product Reviews
'How-To' help for Coin & Jewelry Hunting, Relic Hunting and Useful Techniques.

My Regular-Use Detectors:
Nokta: Impact, FORS Relic and FORS CoRe
Tesoro: Vaquero, Silver Sabre µMAX and Mojave
White's: MX-7
Note: Detectors are listed alphabetically by Brand, and chosen as desired based on search site conditions.
Additional search coils. mounted on spare lower-rods, are on-hand in my accessory coil tote.
Pinpointers: Using Nokta and Makro Pointers.
Headphones: Using White's Pro Star w/'tank style' ear cups.
Recovery Tools: Using White's Ground Hawg Shovel and DigMaster digging tools.

*** All working well today to make memories for tomorrow. ***

monte@stinkwaterwells.com .. or .. monte@ahrps.org
(503) 481-8147


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Re: R2 swing speed
Posted by: Kapok
Date: April 27, 2017 07:57AM
Agree totally with what you guys are saying. Valuable input, thank you. I was just confused by the sentence in the manual that says: "you should make wider passes instead of ... making quick sweeps." To me that seems to say the Racer is a slow motion type detector--and as Monte mentioned, it is not. I'm finding that I hunt with the Racer much like I have with my other detectors--using a sweep speed based on in the field conditions. In areas with high concentrations of trash, I go slow and let the Racer's separation ability do its magic. In cleaner areas, I speed up a bit to cover more territory.

Thanks again, everyone.

HH



Ridding the world of pulltabs, one plug at a time | Makro Racer 2 | Minelab Explorer SE

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Re: R2 swing speed
Posted by: TN Mike
Date: April 27, 2017 06:56PM
This much I've witnessed as of a three hour hunt in modern trash today. If your notching and in three tone, your gonna need high gain and a slow swing speed to hit targets with the 7x11. It will pull the coins out of the trash but its a slow swing (5 seconds or more).. I've never hunted so slow.. but I am pulling nickles and dimes out of think trash.. And the places I've hunted are hard hit. You'd be lucky to dig a quarter an hour which is a sign to me the place is cherry picked. But I take the racer into thick trash.. raise the coil up to stop some of the clicks and pops from the notching.. set the gain to about 90 and move slow.. good targets will sing to you.

Now all this being said.. I'll go back bury a dime in that mess and swing the R2 like its a Tesoro with a cleansweep and all you'll hear is pops and clicks.. its fast but something about the notching in three tone slows the machine down. I've not tried two tone with notching yet.

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Re: R2 swing speed
Posted by: Stoof-tabsallday
Date: April 27, 2017 08:14PM
I can't comment to notching as I don't do it.
Every notch is a possible gold ring above 20. I just listen for all of it, and dig alot. You start to learn what numbers are trash and also how they sound. I hate to say it this way but it takes a Tesoro ear to a point. Both a tab and a gold ring may hit at the same number(s) but sound different upon investigating.
On my tesoros I'm discriminating, but on my racer 2 and relic, I'm not. I usually run the I'd filter on my relic and r2 at around 3-5 depending on the site. Then set it on volume halfway or a bit lower if it's infested with nails then all targets below my first tone break grunt but lower by the iron volume. Most times my first tone break on 3 tone is 10-15 on racer and 20-25 on relic (r2 ferrous is 1-10 and relic is 1-20) . But again this changes with the site I'm on.



Stefan (Michigan)

Nokta Fors Relic 7x11", 5.5x10"DD, 5", 5.5x10 Concentric


Makro Racer 2 - 7x11", 5.5x10", 5" DD


:tesoro: Mojave
:tesoro: Deleon - Troy shadow super 7",
:tesoro: Compadre 8
:tesoro: Compadre 5.75
:tesoro: Bandido II Micromax
:tesoro: Outlaw
:tesoro: Cibola- GB/all metal toggle mod
:tesoro: Vaquero
:tesoro: Cutlass Micromax 8

Lots of coils

*Not listed in any special order*

Tools:
Garrett carrot, lesche shovel, Killer B Wasps, my bare hands

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Re: R2 swing speed
Posted by: Kapok
Date: April 27, 2017 08:19PM
Very interesting, Mike. I don't use notching at all. I've just never trusted, or maybe I'm just lazy :wink: However, I have noticed in the high trash areas, two tones is downright irritating due to all the pops and clicks as you described them. It's fatiguing to listen to. Reducing gain to about 50ish helps. I'm starting to appreciate 3 tones much more lately--I don't think the depth loss, if any, matters as much as the improved stability and separation I experience in 3 tones. I can run 3 tones with significantly higher gain. Next I want to try some tweaks to the tone breaks and audio tones.

I did notice in the junky area I was in last night that I was hunting super slow, but I always do when there are a lot of overlapping signals.



Ridding the world of pulltabs, one plug at a time | Makro Racer 2 | Minelab Explorer SE

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Re: R2 swing speed
Posted by: TN Mike
Date: April 27, 2017 10:44PM
All the detector (no matter what brand) is doing is cutting out said signal (notching). Some machines do it differently than others. Some do it better. I cant imagine not using it. From what I can see the Racer doesnt lose depth while notching.. just recovery speed.

The goal for me with the racer was to have the ultimate park gold machine.. so the notching has to work well with the fast recovery.. I believe it does pretty good..

With Tesoro's alone most of the gold I've dug has came in right under or at a nickle, though I have tested 22k rings that came in around beaver tails or slightly lower. This being the case I dug targets with beep and digs (Tesoro) for years solely base on target size and anything above medium foil, not any tonal characteristics, but size. The year before last I dug almost 30 rings (Most junk that hit in the tab range). 3 or 4 were gold 2 were silver. And last year having wrecked my back I only managed a couple of good hunts and a couple rings (1 gold), again digging on the basis of the size of the target. Of all those rings in the last couple years I can say they comprise maybe 1% of all small targets dug. maybe less than 1%..If i didn't dig a thousand tabs in the last two years Im lying, so be it. But I did.. at-least that many. The amount of time wasted bending over recovering trash is insane.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2017 10:47PM by TN Mike.

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Re: R2 swing speed
Posted by: TN Mike
Date: April 28, 2017 12:36PM
Dug what I thought to be a quarter a couple hours ago at about 3"... Tried this [three tone, 70 gain, no notch] .. reburied the coin to a depth of 5" and covered it back up. Took short narrow, quick passes over the coin and got ID's from 80-94. Took long slow passes and got no ID and maybe just a slight blip.. almost unnoticeable. Took fast long passes and got consistent ID's 84-86 and solid high tone hits. I think this machine does better at depth making fast passes. This can be seen with air testing too.

The coin I thought was a quarter like to make me crap myself.. I pulled it out of the re-dug hole and began to wipe it off after noticing the edge had no reed. I saw an 1829 and thought "what the! *&*"




Turned out to be a shell game token from 1968.. still pretty cool..



https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces60143.html



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2017 12:37PM by TN Mike.


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Re: R2 swing speed
Posted by: Stoof-tabsallday
Date: April 28, 2017 12:44PM
The Tesoro Deleon says same thing in manual I guess, not to swing too slow.
Makes sense because it's very similar to the relic and other nokta and they are more like a live feed in 2 tone and very fast snapshots on 3 tone, so I can see how moving a bit faster can help.
It's nice that the manual also says to run the coil off the ground and I'm saying from experience on my relic that you can run that thing 3" off the ground and still be digging 10" haha



Stefan (Michigan)

Nokta Fors Relic 7x11", 5.5x10"DD, 5", 5.5x10 Concentric


Makro Racer 2 - 7x11", 5.5x10", 5" DD


:tesoro: Mojave
:tesoro: Deleon - Troy shadow super 7",
:tesoro: Compadre 8
:tesoro: Compadre 5.75
:tesoro: Bandido II Micromax
:tesoro: Outlaw
:tesoro: Cibola- GB/all metal toggle mod
:tesoro: Vaquero
:tesoro: Cutlass Micromax 8

Lots of coils

*Not listed in any special order*

Tools:
Garrett carrot, lesche shovel, Killer B Wasps, my bare hands

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Re: R2 swing speed
Posted by: TN Mike
Date: April 28, 2017 10:58PM
I know that a detector works by measuring the time delay between the rx and tx signal, and this measurement of phase change shows us whats under the coil..I think I said this right.. That being said, how moving a detector faster makes it easier I'm not sure. I can see how if you move it slowly it could create a false 'time delay' between the rx and tx and cause the circuit or micro-controller ( or microprocessor) to see the phase change incorrectly. If moving it fast helps the detector, it really shows you just how fast the physics of the coils rx and tx phase relationship reset or "recovers" from target to target... I'm not sure but I dont think even modern micro-controllers (maybe microprocessors?) can keep up with the actual physics of the rx tx phase recovery.

Maybe someone with some better insight could fill us in.. The Racer is by far the fastest metal detector I've used.

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Re: R2 swing speed
Posted by: Stoof-tabsallday
Date: April 29, 2017 09:34PM
I'm no expert but I can say that the racer and fors series is the fastest modern digital machine for recovery. But Tesoro being analog is lightning fast. Both are so fast I can't say which is faster but I will say that the fors series seems to have more of a "live feed" quickness compared to other digital machines. Very nice.



Stefan (Michigan)

Nokta Fors Relic 7x11", 5.5x10"DD, 5", 5.5x10 Concentric


Makro Racer 2 - 7x11", 5.5x10", 5" DD


:tesoro: Mojave
:tesoro: Deleon - Troy shadow super 7",
:tesoro: Compadre 8
:tesoro: Compadre 5.75
:tesoro: Bandido II Micromax
:tesoro: Outlaw
:tesoro: Cibola- GB/all metal toggle mod
:tesoro: Vaquero
:tesoro: Cutlass Micromax 8

Lots of coils

*Not listed in any special order*

Tools:
Garrett carrot, lesche shovel, Killer B Wasps, my bare hands

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Re: R2 swing speed
Posted by: Cal_Cobra
Date: May 08, 2017 03:57PM
Last summer we had a pretty good park scrape going, it was detected by probably about a dozen different people on and off as they moved dirt around.

I found that when there was a new dirt movement, that a lot of people would race through the spot and cherry pick the easy targets. I'd go over the same patch of dirt with my Racer2 and go very slow, and low and behold I'd find all kinds of coins that were missed by the CTX, Explorer2, etc. I feel like the Racer2 did great with a normal swing speed, but if you really wanted to clean out a site, low and slow was the name of the game :detecting:

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Re: R2 swing speed
Posted by: Tony N (Michigan)
Date: May 09, 2017 09:50AM
Quote
Rich (Utah)
Find a target and experiment with swing speeds and see what happens. And then find another. I bet before long you'll have a good idea of what the detector does. OH, and try it in different modes as well. I find that DEEP, di3 and di2 respond differently.

Rich -
So right.
Plant a coin garden. Put your coins a couple feet apart at varying depths and bury them. Bury some at 6", some at 8", some at 10" and see how your swing speed affect the recognition of the coin.
Oh, and don't forget where you put your coin garden. LOL

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