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Lots of deception so far.
Posted by: Greg (E.Tn)
Date: September 23, 2017 08:09PM
The video where the guy comments of the mineralization of the soil and iron content, then digs a foot deep hole and puts a coin in the bottom, but doesn't fill the hole back in...........

........why not fill the hole?

Re: Lots of deception so far.
Posted by: Tyber0z
Date: September 23, 2017 08:14PM
Because it's not realistic to try to detect a buried target at 13 inches. We can hear targets at 13 inches in the field because they've had time to sit in the ground and develop a halo. This is pretty basic metal detecting knowledge. Like Metal Detecting 101. If someone buried a target that deep and didn't hear it, I'd take those results with a grain of salt just as you took this test, which you called "deception". What a bizarre outlook to have, where you think you're being deceived into buying something. Get real.

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Did you even see the video, Tyber?
Posted by: Greg (E.Tn)
Date: September 23, 2017 09:21PM
They dug an open hole and placed a coin in the bottom of it.

They didn't fill the hole.

It's not a reliable test of depth.

THAT'S detecting 101. :drinking:



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2017 09:23PM by Greg (E.Tn).

Re: Did you even see the video, Tyber?
Posted by: Tyber0z
Date: September 24, 2017 02:33AM
My comment sailed completely over your head, didn't it? The reason we can hear coins at great depth in real-world conditions is because coins that are that deep have had time to permeate the soil around them and develop a "halo". This amplifies the strength of the target. Often, once the ground is disturbed, the "halo" is broken and the signal gets lost. Digging a hole, putting a coin at the bottom of the hole, and then covering it with dirt would make for UNREALISTIC conditions, given that there was no time for the halo to form. Therefor, for you to call this "deception" without being able to understand that you preferred method is deeply flawed demonstrates your lack of knowledge about these things. Personally, I'm impressed that the machine can ping off a target 13 inches through air while being surrounded by mineralized ground. But if you want to call this "deception" because you're too dense to understand, that's your prerogative.

Re: Equinox iron trick?
Posted by: Blank Planet
Date: September 24, 2017 03:24AM
halo is an xbox game...

gentlemen gentlemen gentlemen
Posted by: Tom_in_CA
Date: September 24, 2017 03:59AM
gentlemen, If I could step in here to be see "each of yours sides" :

Yes: an air test won't exactly mimic in-ground test (nor will an "open un-filled" hole mimic in-ground/covered). So I can see Greg's point.

But no: simply filling in the hole will ALSO not "mimic an in-ground" test either. So I can see tyberoz point. Reason is: that ground is a) still disturbed . Not packed samely as surrounding ground. And b) has not had time to develop a halo. So no matter WHAT you do, it's going to be nearly impossible to mimic a true 100 yr. in-the-ground test.

For example: On the wet salt beach, whenever I do machine depth testing, I make sure to do it right at the ebbing surf zone. So that I can let the rolling surf come up and cover, and uniformly pack my spot ("halos" a non-issue when doing wet-beach-moving sand hunting). In this way, the sand will immediately mimic the 'pack' of the surrounding sand.

Also: I agree with Tyberoz that an air test is NOT altogether useless. While it's true that in-ground can vary, yet if ANY machine can get a dime or quarter sized target to 13" in what-is-effectively an air-test, then at least it has a FIGHTING CHANCE to replicate that in the ground. If you COULDN'T get a coin to air test at 13", then seems-to-me you'll fare no better in the ground.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2017 04:01AM by Tom_in_CA.

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Re: gentlemen gentlemen gentlemen
Posted by: lytle78
Date: September 24, 2017 06:15AM
Jalo - much discussed topic and the existence and effect on detection of targets is far from being a settled fact - much less “detecting 101”. Here’s what Dave Johnson wrote aboit the subject a while back

http://www.fisherlab.com/hobby/davejohnson/HaloEffect.pdf



Rick Kempf

Re: gentlemen gentlemen gentlemen
Posted by: Tom_in_CA
Date: September 24, 2017 06:33AM
lytle78, thanx for the link. This part of Dave's writings seems to agree with what I'd mused:

" Soil disturbance
I believe that many reports of “halo effect” are actually a misinterpretation of soil disturbance. When an object is buried, the act of digging and refilling the hole creates a localized soil anomaly which causes the detected signal to either add to or subtract from the signal from the metal object. What actually happens depends on the kind of soil and the details of how the detector processes signals, but most often the detectability of the target is reduced. Over time the disturbed soil settles and becomes mixed with
surrounding soil by earthworm activity etc. such that the anomaly is gradually erased. "


So even filling in the whole on the Ox video, would not have made it equivalent to an un-dug target. No as to whether it's an improvement over an air test can be debated, haha

Re: gentlemen gentlemen gentlemen
Posted by: "Carolina"
Date: September 24, 2017 09:15AM
So my suggestion is--------- bury a gold ring and show me the depth. No halo with gold I think.



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Re: gentlemen gentlemen gentlemen
Posted by: dbado1
Date: September 24, 2017 09:57AM
Quote
"Carolina"
So my suggestion is--------- bury a gold ring and show me the depth. No halo with gold I think.

Re-read what Dave Johnson said. It's about soil disturbance. Not what's buried.

Re: gentlemen gentlemen gentlemen
Posted by: Flbchbm
Date: September 24, 2017 10:22AM
Excellent article, thanks for the link Lytle78.

So the premise is that we are being intentionally misled about the capabilities of this detector. That is what deception is, intentional, planned. Why on God's green earth would a company with the reputation of Minelab do anything intentionally that would affect their brand negatively? Reputations are far easier to damage than they are to repair. Ask Whites! Take a breath and think about this for a few minutes. Do you honestly believe Minelab is that stupid? I do not. They would lose far more than they would gain.

Yes, there a ton of unanswered questions about this detector. Information is very sparse and anything related to this detector is being microscopicly analyzed (and over analyzed). No doubt the introduction timing was about freezing some consumer purchasing, which is actually pretty smart on their part. I know it made me pull back on some purchase plans. However, all this over analysis is causing people to lose their minds. Since the final design and capabilities of this detector has yet to be determined, it is not reasonable to expect the company to allow the testers to post videos of the capabilities of the detector. It is also not reasonable to believe that the company planned for the iron test and the open-hole test as a way of fooling people into believing the detector has superior capabilities. It is much more likely that these tests were put together on the fly by the people that performed them. Bottom line is, just like with any other new detector, we will have to wait until they have a finalized version before they will release information about the capabilities of the detector. Until then, some of us need to increase our medication!

Re: Equinox iron trick?
Posted by: Blank Planet
Date: September 24, 2017 11:19AM
i am selling not buying have more than enough pulltab machines :lmfao:

its a vlf that cant tell me if its gold or aluminium, what else do i need to know?

Old tech that's all it is in a new case.

Re: Equinox iron trick?
Posted by: Tom_in_CA
Date: September 24, 2017 12:11PM
Quote
Blank Planet
....Old tech that's all it is in a new case.

I haven't read a single musing that it would tell aluminum apart from gold. In that sense, sure: it's old tech.

I currently carry around 2 machines to accomplish my variety of hunting. And I should technically be carrying 3. So just hoping this solves those 3 venues.

Re: gentlemen gentlemen gentlemen
Posted by: Dale(Ia)
Date: September 24, 2017 02:45PM
Quote
Flbchbm
Excellent article, thanks for the link Lytle78.

So the premise is that we are being intentionally misled about the capabilities of this detector. That is what deception is, intentional, planned. Why on God's green earth would a company with the reputation of Minelab do anything intentionally that would affect their brand negatively? Reputations are far easier to damage than they are to repair. Ask Whites! Take a breath and think about this for a few minutes. Do you honestly believe Minelab is that stupid? I do not. They would lose far more than they would gain.

Yes, there a ton of unanswered questions about this detector. Information is very sparse and anything related to this detector is being microscopicly analyzed (and over analyzed). No doubt the introduction timing was about freezing some consumer purchasing, which is actually pretty smart on their part. I know it made me pull back on some purchase plans. However, all this over analysis is causing people to lose their minds. Since the final design and capabilities of this detector has yet to be determined, it is not reasonable to expect the company to allow the testers to post videos of the capabilities of the detector. It is also not reasonable to believe that the company planned for the iron test and the open-hole test as a way of fooling people into believing the detector has superior capabilities. It is much more likely that these tests were put together on the fly by the people that performed them. Bottom line is, just like with any other new detector, we will have to wait until they have a finalized version before they will release information about the capabilities of the detector. Until then, some of us need to increase our medication!
Here! Here! Excellent ,sensible, post !!

Iowa Dale

Re: gentlemen gentlemen gentlemen
Posted by: Tyber0z
Date: September 24, 2017 09:06PM
Quote
Flbchbm
Excellent article, thanks for the link Lytle78.

So the premise is that we are being intentionally misled about the capabilities of this detector. That is what deception is, intentional, planned. Why on God's green earth would a company with the reputation of Minelab do anything intentionally that would affect their brand negatively? Reputations are far easier to damage than they are to repair. Ask Whites! Take a breath and think about this for a few minutes. Do you honestly believe Minelab is that stupid? I do not. They would lose far more than they would gain.

Yes, there a ton of unanswered questions about this detector. Information is very sparse and anything related to this detector is being microscopicly analyzed (and over analyzed). No doubt the introduction timing was about freezing some consumer purchasing, which is actually pretty smart on their part. I know it made me pull back on some purchase plans. However, all this over analysis is causing people to lose their minds. Since the final design and capabilities of this detector has yet to be determined, it is not reasonable to expect the company to allow the testers to post videos of the capabilities of the detector. It is also not reasonable to believe that the company planned for the iron test and the open-hole test as a way of fooling people into believing the detector has superior capabilities. It is much more likely that these tests were put together on the fly by the people that performed them. Bottom line is, just like with any other new detector, we will have to wait until they have a finalized version before they will release information about the capabilities of the detector. Until then, some of us need to increase our medication!

We have a toxin in our culture which compels people to look for the conspiracy theory, or the evil plot, or the deceit, even if no such thing exists. The news plays into it and the internet fuels the compulsion even more. Likeminded theorists get together and validate each other's bizarre fairy tales. The Nox was announced EIGHT days ago and people are already posting on multiple forums that there's "deception", "sleight-of-hand", "trickery", or some kind of weird plot by Minelab to screw us out of our money. It's so disgusting to me that instead of just saying "I think the test was flawed" or "I'd like to see this test", people suggest there's a conspiracy or that the testers and company are withholding.

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