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pardon me if this has already been mused....
Posted by: Tom_in_CA
Date: September 26, 2017 07:48PM
I love my Explorer and Excalibur for wet salt beach. However, as most of you know, the Exp. and Excal . start to suffer in nastier mineralized black sand. And I've even seen it so bad on a few occasions, that you can even put a coin right on top of the ground, and not get a signal.

Fortunately, those occasions are rare and limited in geographic locales where I'm at. If you bump into them, you can usually just move further away from the base of the cut, to escape it. Or get out of the gully-wash where it's occurring, etc... Yet, you can bet that nagging doubts always have you wondering what's in the zones. And wishing "what I wouldn't give for a pulse at this exact moment". It's infrequent enough that I've never bought a pulse.

I know it's a tall order (because this isn't a pulse machine after all), but I wonder if the Ox will be any better with wet salt black minerals than the current Sov. and Exp's ?

Re: pardon me if this has already been mused....
Posted by: IDXMonster
Date: September 26, 2017 07:57PM
Nope. Nobody's thinking about it Tom. Besides,I'm sure you could just cruise right on over to Bill Lahrs place and pick up a pulse cheap, he must have a whole gross of them in his garage...:smoke:

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I don't think so either, for exactly the reason you gave--NOT a pulse machine.N/T
Posted by: Greg (E.Tn)
Date: September 26, 2017 10:40PM

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Re: pardon me if this has already been mused....
Posted by: Tyber0z
Date: September 26, 2017 11:57PM
Tom, here is something I saw on Dankowski:


Here is some info on Multi-IQ from Minelab, taken from the November issue of The Searcher, in response to the a question about FBS/BBS and Multi-IQ...

How is Multi-IQ different from BBS/FBS?

Multi-IQ uses a different group of fundamental frequencies than BBS or FBS to generate a wide-band multi-frequency transmission signal that is more
sensitive to high-frequency targets and slightly less sensitive to low-frequency targets. Multi-IQ uses the latest high-speed processor(s) and advanced
digital filtering techniques for a much faster recovery speed than BBS or FBS technologies. Multi-IQ copes with saltwater and beach conditions just as
well as BBS/BFS, however BBS/FBS still have an advantage for finding high-conductive silver coins in all conditions.


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Re: pardon me if this has already been mused....
Posted by: WaterWalker
Date: September 27, 2017 03:51AM
Nice, now that is the kind of explanations that are helpful in understanding "new" technology.
Thanks

Re: pardon me if this has already been mused....
Posted by: Tom_in_CA
Date: September 27, 2017 05:54AM
Quote
Tyber0z
.....copes with saltwater and beach conditions just as well as BBS/BFS,.....[/i]

Thanx tyberOz. I guess it doesn't make pulse machines obsolete :wacko:

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Re: pardon me if this has already been mused....
Posted by: lytle78
Date: September 27, 2017 08:11AM
Currently there are three non-PI waterproof multifrequency beach detectors, two from ML and one from Fisher. All of them suffer from two inherent defects. They are limited by black sand as described above - secondly, they are relatively insensitive to small gold. This insensitivity is a result of having to ground balance to the wet salt.

Current PI beach detectors are more capable in black sand, but they run a relatively high pulse delays which make them also relatively insensitive to small gold. Pulse delays of less than 10 miroseconds are necessary to detect small low conductor obkects like earrings, small charms, thin chains. Unfortunately no production PI detector has this short a pulse delay because seawater starts acting like a target at short pulse delays. Of course they all suffer from not having a useful iron ID capability.

The Equinox has a beach multifreq mode, but apparently doesn’t utilize the two highest freqs. I would expect it’s saltwater performance in this mode to approximate that of the Excalibur or CTX.

Tom Dankowski has pointed out that the loss rate of small gold jewelry is vastly greater than the rate for large jewelry. Also, per Tom D. - NO current detector can find most small,jewelry in salt water - not multifreq VLF’s (because of the effects of ground balancing to salt) and not current PI’s. (Because of the inability to operate under 10 microseconds pulse delay in salt water).

My money (so to speak) is on the development of a short pulse delay salt water PI - hopefully with usable iron ID.



Rick Kempf

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Re: pardon me if this has already been mused....
Posted by: lytle78
Date: September 27, 2017 09:00AM
What I posted above is mostly a distillation of material posted 5 years ago on another forum. Google - “ CZ owners - salt training 101” to find it. It explains in detail the effect on depth of detection of low conductors of ground balancing a VLF IB multifrequency (or single frequency) detector to wet salt also the effects of minimum pulse delay on PI detectors.



Rick Kempf

Re: pardon me if this has already been mused....
Posted by: Tom_in_CA
Date: September 27, 2017 11:53AM
Quote
lytle78
Currently there are three non-PI waterproof multifrequency beach detectors, two from ML and one from Fisher. All of them suffer from two inherent defects. They are limited by black sand as described above - secondly, they are relatively insensitive to small gold. This insensitivity is a result of having to ground balance to the wet salt.

Current PI beach detectors are more capable in black sand, but they run a relatively high pulse delays which make them also relatively insensitive to small gold. Pulse delays of less than 10 miroseconds are necessary to detect small low conductor obkects like earrings, small charms, thin chains. Unfortunately no production PI detector has this short a pulse delay because seawater starts acting like a target at short pulse delays. Of course they all suffer from not having a useful iron ID capability.

The Equinox has a beach multifreq mode, but apparently doesn’t utilize the two highest freqs. I would expect it’s saltwater performance in this mode to approximate that of the Excalibur or CTX.

Tom Dankowski has pointed out that the loss rate of small gold jewelry is vastly greater than the rate for large jewelry. Also, per Tom D. - NO current detector can find most small,jewelry in salt water - not multifreq VLF’s (because of the effects of ground balancing to salt) and not current PI’s. (Because of the inability to operate under 10 microseconds pulse delay in salt water).

My money (so to speak) is on the development of a short pulse delay salt water PI - hopefully with usable iron ID.

Absolutely excellent write-up. Thanx for that contribution lytle78.

And .... I know this sounds irresponsible, but here goes: When it comes to "dainty fine tinsel thin chains" or "earing studs" etc.... I almost have ask: "SO WHAT ?" In other words, if the cost is 1000 nails to find a single earing stud or tinsel thin chain, ... ok, who cares ? And let's be painfully honest: since we typically recoup our investments via scrap metal sales, then (doh!) the "tinsel thin chains" are feather weight !

The only possible exception , to arose some hard-on for micro-jewelry like this, is if (an off-chance) that an earring could have a diamond in it. But unless we're talking .5 carat or more, I STILL say "so what ?". When was the last time you saw a gal wearing a 1 carat diamond in an ear ? Hence if I gain nail discrimination at the cost of an occasional loss of a tinsel thin chain or earring stud, I say " Bring it on !"

Re: pardon me if this has already been mused....
Posted by: Tom_in_CA
Date: September 27, 2017 11:55AM
excellent distillation !

Re: pardon me if this has already been mused....
Posted by: Charles (Upstate NY)
Date: September 27, 2017 01:08PM
Quote
Tom_in_CA
is if (an off-chance) that an earring could have a diamond in it. But unless we're talking .5 carat or more, I STILL say "so what ?". When was the last time you saw a gal wearing a 1 carat diamond in an ear ? Hence if I gain nail discrimination at the cost of an occasional loss of a tinsel thin chain or earring stud, I say " Bring it on !"

You are forgetting about diamond solitaire wedding rings which are rarely dug. The theory is they settle stone down tipping the ring straight up on edge which has about the same detectability as a diamond stud earring. As for gold chains many medium weight chains which weigh more than your average gold wedding band are undetectable, the detector only sees individual chain links or the clasp. I think many that are dug it was the charm or something hanging on the chain that was actually detected.

Now imagine how many of diamond rings, diamond stud earrings, and chains have piled up on beaches for decades undetected. I sold this ring below to a jeweler, they pay maybe 25% of retail, it sold for over $3,000.




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Re: pardon me if this has already been mused....
Posted by: lytle78
Date: September 27, 2017 02:23PM
Tom, you referred to a “cost of 1000 nails” - point taken, when it comes to today’s PI’s - but what if the cost was ZERO nails?

Don’t forget to add iron ID to the mix.

The holy grail of beach detectors - a waterproof PI

full power to depths achieved now by the most powerful PI detectors.

Useful Iron ID to full depth - even if the “ID on” depth is slightly less than all metal ( this takes care of the 1000 nails, bobbie pons, fishooks, etc).

Pulse delay below 10 Milliseconds and this delay level usable even in the surf (need special design to cope with both salt and surge effects)

As with most PI’s sees through black sand.

Maybe even detect non ferrous targets dorectly below or adjacent to iron

You can’t buy one today. That could change. I’ll be 71 this winter - I hope I will see one for sale while I can still swing the darned thing!



Rick Kempf



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2017 02:33PM by lytle78.

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Re: pardon me if this has already been mused....
Posted by: lytle78
Date: September 27, 2017 02:46PM
One more thing. Here’s the definitions for gold sizes at the beach Tom D. described - note “small gold” is a lot bigger than earring studs and tinsel chains. Prndants the size of a dime or fairly large gold chains are something I definately scoop for!

The electrical conductivity of wet salt is 'nearly identical' to the electrical conductivity of 'small' gold. ALL VLF detectors that can properly compensate for wet salt have the same problem. The Sov/Excal/Explorer have the same failure............they are not immune.

"Small" gold = These would be pendents about the size of a dime....or a bit smaller. Fairly large gold chains. Large 'open' hoop gold earrings. Anklets/bracelets of fairly heavy links. Large 'charms'.

"Tiny" gold = Long and fairly (pencil lead) thin gold chains/anklets/bracelets. Medium size 'open' hoop earrings (about half-dollar to silver-dollar diameter). Medium sized charms (half-dime size).

"Micro-jewelry" = Small/medium/large single post earrings. Thin chains/anklets/bracelets. Nickel-diameter (or smaller) 'open' hoop earrings. Charms about the diameter of a U.S. 3-Cent silver trime.




Rick Kempf

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Re: pardon me if this has already been mused....
Posted by: Cal_Cobra
Date: September 27, 2017 05:30PM
Quote
Tom_in_CA
I love my Explorer and Excalibur for wet salt beach. However, as most of you know, the Exp. and Excal . start to suffer in nastier mineralized black sand. And I've even seen it so bad on a few occasions, that you can even put a coin right on top of the ground, and not get a signal.

Fortunately, those occasions are rare and limited in geographic locales where I'm at. If you bump into them, you can usually just move further away from the base of the cut, to escape it. Or get out of the gully-wash where it's occurring, etc... Yet, you can bet that nagging doubts always have you wondering what's in the zones. And wishing "what I wouldn't give for a pulse at this exact moment". It's infrequent enough that I've never bought a pulse.

I know it's a tall order (because this isn't a pulse machine after all), but I wonder if the Ox will be any better with wet salt black minerals than the current Sov. and Exp's ?

Wouldn't detecting in 40kHz cut through that black sand?

Ahhh, gonna play tough, eh ? :ranting: :rofl:
Posted by: Tom_in_CA
Date: September 27, 2017 06:36PM
Charles, that was very well written . Ok wise guy: Yes: Even husky men's gold bracelets are ALSO seen by the detector as "individual gold links". And a Mr. T Rope gold chain can also be seen by the detector as individual links. And in those those cases: Yes, the sum total of gold is going to be a lot. Good point.

And when you talk about a small dainty gold ring, be aware that the Explorer and Excal have no problem getting those tin-foil signals. However, you bring up a good point about how the CROWN end (of any ring) tends to eventually be downwards in the ground. A buddy of mine did a several month long study in a certain old urban park (where several decades of hunters had "cherry picked" and done quite well). He reasoned that there a) must be a lot of nickels missed, and b) must be gold jewelry missed.

So he made it his mission to strip-mine a certain section which had always been their favorite. Every few nights, after work, for a few hours, he would go there with nothing but iron-disc. and strip-mine every single whisper, no matter how much it tortured him. He filled apron after apron-full of teensy foil, tabs, etc..... And ... Over a month or two, took detailed notes and records. So that he could make an eventual computer charts and such. Even down to detail of how deep, etc...

Eventually, yes, he got a few gold rings. And yes, some micro-jewelry. And yes, some sickly brownish-orange V's and buffalos. In the end, he decided that if gold rings were his goal, then his time would have been MUCH better spent by simply going to the beach. Doh! But an interesting side discovery came-about by this experiment: He noticed that in the gold rings from-the-turf that he got this way, that .... If there were a CROWN (heavier side), that the ring would be tilted towards the heavy end (if not utterly vertical). Hmmm. He would never have noticed this , if it hadn't been for his slow methodical digs, in-order to be studying the exact GPS and depth of each item. (hence digging super carefully, instead of haphazardly just removing handfuls of dirt).


So you might be right about the tendency of a ring, with a heavier end, tending to eventually be tilted or vertical.

HOWEVER, when the discussion is the wet-beach (especially after erosion events), I don't know if that's necessarily the case. They have been "deposited" there by the tide and swells and sand-movement of just the night before or whatever.

But cutting to the chase and answering each of these "gotchas" :

1) To the extent that my "so what?" post failed to account for larger chains too (since the machine sees individual links) : I have seen many many pulse users, in their attempts to pass nails, will learn-the-sounds of nails. And they DO INDEED often pass some signals. They describe them as double-beeps. And I have often asked myself: Wait a minute, if a long-straight nail has a "double-beep", then wouldn't a gold stick-pin ? And elongated gold chain ? etc....

2) And to the extent that even if/when it's true that a goodie is snared by the pulse machine that, admittedly, the standard-machine guy misses: I have see scores of guys show up on our beaches with pulse machines. Smug and happy that they will not miss chains or earring studs, and can cut black sand with ease. But ... within a few months, they are sporting standard machines so they can pass nails. Or you see them on nail riddled beaches , pulling their hair out, so they "leave for greener grounds" (going to try nearby beaches they hope aren't so nail-ridden).

So again: While my "so what?" post had its weakness, yet there are times that even when you have to make tough choices. And in the game of beach erosion, speed becomes the name of the game. Depth becomes a non-issue. It's "how many targets can you dig before the incoming tide chases you out?". And if that's going to be 400 targets, then ... heaven-help-you if 300 of them were nails.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2017 06:37PM by Tom_in_CA.

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