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Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: October 02, 2017 03:03AM
I hear you, Charles, on your preference for the smartfind screen. Me, I've always been a "numbers" guy -- my brain seems to like numbers and always has, and so when I started using the Explorer, I started on the digital screen and just never left it. But my point of view on that has always been that both methods, digital or smartfind, show the same thing (since pixels on the smartfind screen have a one-to-one correlation to number pairs on the digital screen). While you look for cursor positions, and patterns in the jumping/movement/fluttering of the cursor on the smartfind screen, I look for numerical values, and jumping/movement/fluttering on the digital screen. The patterns are revealed in both, it's just a matter of which way your brain can visualize best, I think.

So, along those lines, I think my point still stands. Here's what I mean.

It is my belief, based on experience using FBS, that the "magic" inherent in that platform is that instead of having target ferrous or non-ferrous information, and ground mineralization effects, all "wrapped into one receive signal from a single-frequency transmission," (which then needs to be "unwrapped" and broken into pieces as best as possible by the single-frequency machine's software), Minelab has found a way using FBS to "figure out" ferrous/non-ferrous information kind of "on the side," and then just feeding non-ferrous (let's call it conductive) target information (received as a result of multiple frequency EM wave transmissions), back to the user via the screen. And the only reason that we can't get a PERFECT conductive ID for a given target, is because soil mineralization messes with things, and some of the received "soil signal" (which includes both ferrous and conductive type signals) simply can't be stopped from "bleeding into" the algorithm outputting target ID numbers, ESPECIALLY on the FE side, and thus giving us the deterioration of ID number with depth that is common to ALL VLF frequency domain machines. It's just that FBS does a MUCH better job of keeping that contamination OUT of the target ID CO number as compared to other machines, especially on deep targets.

Now, this may not be exactly correct, technically, but it's what I've come up with after years of seeing how an Explorer "behaves," combined with some basic understanding of how metal detectors work. So, what I'm saying is, IF Minelab were to somehow succeed at accounting for ground mineralization in a even more accurate way, they could theoretically pull a large majority of, if not nearly all, ground effects OUT OF the target return signal, such that the return signal was nearly PURE TARGET INFO. And in that case, I could then see a lack of importance in having both FE and CO numbers, but instead just displaying a pure, uncontaminated-by-ground-mineralization conductive ID number...no need for FE/CO, no need for 2D smartfind screen, because there is nothing in the ID but nearly PURE conductive target characteristic info.

Obviously, this is easier said than done, easier to calculate mathematically in a lab than to accomplish in a real-world setting, but theoretically, I guess I could conceive of some future detecting platform being SO GOOD at separating ground info from target info, that the "2D" idea becomes superfluous and unnecessary. Is the Equinox representative of some "breakthrough" in this regard? Doubtful, but that seems to be some of what's being claimed by Minelab that they have, in fact, accomplished (at least in a more accurate way than before)...

Steve



Minelab Explorer SE Pro, Fisher F19
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche 38D "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

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Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: dewcon4414
Date: October 02, 2017 05:09AM
Many of us use tone as a deciding factor and we love our smart screens which can give a good deal of information quick as you learn what your targets tend to do at depth. There comes a point where its all FERR thou and the machine can only say theres something there. The CTX has really improved TID, doing away with the smart screen to me is a step backward. Its what i liked over the whites single digit screen. none the less, id live with those digits why........ because like the CTX that screen is covered most of the time out there waist to neck deep in the water. As far as the price........is just that tech has made these components cheaper and more accessible?

Dew



Xcal II, Blue Xcal 1000, Sov GT, Exp SE
Whatever you do in life, surround yourself with smart people who'll argue with you.... John Wooden.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2017 05:12AM by dewcon4414.

Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: GazinUK
Date: October 02, 2017 05:31AM
What is it you really want from this machine?

OK I'm in the UK and we are fortunate enough to be in the position to be able to dig nearly everything due to the amount of history. I can't discrim out things like ring pulls as I would lose small hammered silver coins.

I am amazed at the amount of videos with screens blacked out with discrimination only to here the operator still say things like "it doesn't sound right or the numbers are jumping"

It is not a magic wand, and to get back to my original question, how are you going to manage with something that appears to be a technological step forward, but ultimately a beep and dig set up?

Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: Charles (Upstate NY)
Date: October 02, 2017 08:24AM
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sgoss66
Me, I've always been a "numbers" guy -- my brain seems to like numbers and always has, and so when I started using the Explorer, I started on the digital screen and just never left it. Steve

I'll reprogram your Explorer for depth, then you will switch to the Smartfind screen. :biggrin:

Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: dbado1
Date: October 02, 2017 08:32AM
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GazinUK
What is it you really want from this machine?

OK I'm in the UK and we are fortunate enough to be in the position to be able to dig nearly everything due to the amount of history. I can't discrim out things like ring pulls as I would lose small hammered silver coins.

I am amazed at the amount of videos with screens blacked out with discrimination only to here the operator still say things like "it doesn't sound right or the numbers are jumping"

It is not a magic wand, and to get back to my original question, how are you going to manage with something that appears to be a technological step forward, but ultimately a beep and dig set up?

Excellent question!
I think what matters is what is the operator's application ? Me, I'm a relic hunter. I want a fast multi freq unit that separates ferrous front non ferrous. That's it. I dig all non ferrous targets. Numbers are just a loose guide. I could care less about hunting in a park trying to discriminate a pull tab from a gold ear ring. So, I guess it is all in the application as to what a guy wants from a machine. Like you, I never understood why some guys load up on the discrimination and expect the machine to run well.

Dean

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Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: October 02, 2017 09:43AM
Reprogram it for depth? Sounds good to me... :)

Can I at least "peek" at the numbers sometimes? :)

Steve



Minelab Explorer SE Pro, Fisher F19
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche 38D "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: Charles (Upstate NY)
Date: October 02, 2017 01:19PM
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sgoss66
Reprogram it for depth? Sounds good to me... :)

Can I at least "peek" at the numbers sometimes? :)

Steve

The numeric display is fine up to a certain point, a bit further for someone like you experienced watching bouncing numbers. Beyond that, in that zone near and to the machines absolute limits I don't see how anyone could use the numeric display. At the machine's limits where you may not even get an ID but every 3rd swing and a tone every 2nd swing, and when you do the ID is in no mans land far from known coin areas and jumping around, mixed with jumps to iron, bobby pins, its all over the place. At its limits you know there's something down there but you know not what. Its going to be a best guess ferrous/non-ferrous over multiple swings watching how the cursor behaves.

So just how bad will this signal be? In another thread we have been discussing coil balance, here at the machine's limits you are talking about a target that just barely upsets the coils balance. This is why its good to know how coils are built and something about coil balance. So when something upsets this balance you know the why behind what's going on. These signals are so slight they resemble a whisper that's been reduced by 75%. They are not even as strong as noise or chatter, faint in volume, short in width, a soft pillow of almost nothing. All you really know is something is upsetting the balance of the coil every so slightly and that it repeats in the same spot. It may not repeat every swing but if its repeating every 2nd or 3rd swing its a target. That's the machine at its limits.

I spent years hunting inland and I would never dig such a signal or even be looking for one. Then I spent several years hunting beaches. Its so fast and easy to dig targets in wet beach sand with a scoop that you will dig almost anything. That targets can be very deep or very small on a beach, and potentially silver or gold is another reason why you might dig them. What I found was its a great way to learn just what the limits of the machine are. I long ago lost count of the number of astonished expressions I had after digging some nothing of a signal.

Where does a huge Spanish 8 reale silver coin ID, over with silver dollars right. Would it surprise you to hear I have dug them with the above nothing type signals that ID just above nickel, and that was only on the swings where I got an ID at all.

Don't abandon the numeric screen for most of your hunting, you know it, your brain is trained on it. Instead dedicate 30 minutes of your hunt to the above type of signals, its one of those things you just have to prove to yourself in the field. Spend 30 minutes looking for and digging the above type of signals then report back. :thumbup:

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Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: Southwind
Date: October 02, 2017 01:34PM
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I think what matters is what is the operator's application ?
and then
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I never understood why some guys load up on the discrimination and expect the machine to run well.

You answered your own question LOL.

Personally I run my E-Trac, most of the time, with a very aggressive discrimination pattern. Fact is I do quite well actually.

This pattern would scare the hell out of most people, but have you ever hunted and old bar parking lot or Drive In theater?

Right pattern for the right job.





The real treasure is in the hunt...


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Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: Wayfarer
Date: October 02, 2017 01:35PM
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sgoss66
Very interesting stuff, Wayfarer. Will be interesting to see what your analyzer shows on an FBS machine, and on the Equinox. Like you said, this tells us nothing about how these signals are being processed, but it does reveal some interesting stuff about the transmit frequencies...

What's the unit on the x-axis? Milliseconds?

Steve

X-axis is frequency in kHz. The 5, 10, 15, etc. across the bottom is the frequency that the detector is operating at.

Y-axis is signal strength. The jagged line that goes all the way across the bottom at about -110 dBm is just the natural background noise, or "static." The vertical spikes are the actual measured real-time transmit frequencies of the detector.

I'm trying to borrow a CTX to measure it, I've got the word out, so maybe sometime this week, I hope, I'll have some results for the FBS output frequencies.



Current detectors: White's V3i, MXT, XL Pro
Past: White's XLT, 6000D Series 3, Coinmaster 2DB, Minelab CTX 3030, Fisher Gold Bug Pro
Location: Western Idaho

Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: coinhunterseth
Date: October 02, 2017 02:15PM
There's a very informative thread on another forum regarding this. the conclusion they reach is "It uses alternate bursts of 1 cycle of 3.125kHz then 8 cycles of 25kHz". The 28 frequencies is a marketing claim. Only those two frequencies are actually processed.

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Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: Wayfarer
Date: October 02, 2017 03:14PM
Quote
coinhunterseth
There's a very informative thread on another forum regarding this. the conclusion they reach is "It uses alternate bursts of 1 cycle of 3.125kHz then 8 cycles of 25kHz". The 28 frequencies is a marketing claim. Only those two frequencies are actually processed.

Thanks for the link. Great read, although much of it was over my head. I'm not an electrical engineer by any stretch, just someone who likes to tinker with radiated RF energy...aka a ham radio guy. Bottom line is what you already said: that FBS is really just two frequencies that alternate in quick pulses. The magic is in the timing of the pulses and the digital processing of the incoming signals.

The spectrum analyzer and technique I am using is better than the method the original poster in that thread was using, so maybe I can add something to the body of knowledge with my results. As soon as I get 'em, I'll post 'em up here for any and all to see and then draw their own conclusions.

Here's the link to the thread, btw: http://www.dankowskidetectors.com/discussions/read.php?2,24272



Current detectors: White's V3i, MXT, XL Pro
Past: White's XLT, 6000D Series 3, Coinmaster 2DB, Minelab CTX 3030, Fisher Gold Bug Pro
Location: Western Idaho

Try 20-30 years going back to the sovereign, explorer was 1999 I think?
Posted by: jtalley007
Date: October 02, 2017 09:05PM
I think electronics guys kind of understand but nobody seems to be able to duplicate what Minelab does.

I thought for sure when I heard the sovereign patent expired, someone would be all over it.

Since that didn't happen, glad to see Minelab may meet our needs without taking out an equity line to buy their machines.

I've spent a small fortune over the years myself, bought the 3030 when it first arrived and was sick when I took it on vacation to the beach and it wouldn't work.

I won't ever buy a first run machine again, my sovereign, Excalibur, and 3030 will be fine until I know from Minelab and all the social media hype the bugs are not present.

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Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: Wayfarer
Date: October 06, 2017 08:32PM
I was able to borrow a CTX *and* a Safari. Nothing new here. The CTX transmits primarily on on 3.125 kHz and 25 kHz (the strongest vertical spikes on the spectrum). The spikes at 30, 45, and 90 kHz are some kind of EMI noise and is not part of the CTX's output, so you can disregard those.

As a bonus, I measured the output as I shifted the Noise cancel channel from Ch 1 to Ch 11. You can see that the output frequency is shifted as a percentage, not as an absolute number. Very interesting and maybe a clue to how the output frequencies are generated.



Current detectors: White's V3i, MXT, XL Pro
Past: White's XLT, 6000D Series 3, Coinmaster 2DB, Minelab CTX 3030, Fisher Gold Bug Pro
Location: Western Idaho




Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: Ksdirt
Date: October 06, 2017 09:13PM
You seem to be very good at what you do..must have some interesting equip..... So the etrac probly does about the same thing as the ctx.
And runs on the 2 friq. ...so the 28 friq. Talked about ..what's up with that..are they just reflections off the 2 main ones used ..sorta speak..

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Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: amberjack
Date: October 06, 2017 09:19PM
I know I used more than 1 frig at time when out detecting does that count as a friq :buds:

AJ

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