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Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: muttandjeeps
Date: October 01, 2017 09:28AM
I'm hoping the "new economic reality" answer is the right one. I for one may be putting too much trust in ML to do the right thing and deliver on the perceived promises of the limited information so far. All I do know, is that they have done right by me so far, from the XT,ET, and the CTX. Pretty sure I'm going to give it a shot, just my .02.

Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: Charles (Upstate NY)
Date: October 01, 2017 09:39AM
Quote
sgoss66
Charles -- just about the time I say I don't understand, along you come to put things into layman's terms enough that I can understand it!

My question -- is there enough power in a transmitted "6th harmonic" to induce enough "eddy current" in a target, such that the electrical field then induced in the target can be "heard" by the receive coil?

As for the price point and your "what's the catch" radar, I totally agree. Totally. The only answer I've come up with so far is, either the price reflects what the performance will be (mid range), OR ELSE, the amount of competition that has come into the market over the last several years has forced -- through competition/capitalism arguments -- an environment where $2500 flagship machines aren't going to work anymore. Perhaps Minelab is being drug, kicking and screaming, into a reality where in order to maintain market share, they have had to accept a reality that there aren't enough $2500 customers out there, because there are other folks offering high performance, for far less cost. So, you need to draw in the much wider pool of $900 customers -- while giving them high-end performance in this otherwise "mid-level" price range because if you don't include that PERFORMANCE with your attractive price point ,there is lots of competition out there who are doing so...

Steve

Steve I don't think Minelab would waste their time processing harmonic frequencies unless they are providing target and soil information that's useful. The flip side of that is, that's probably why FBS is 28 frequencies and not 104 frequencies right. Looking at this a different way, if you have a harmonic giving you 100 kHz information is there value in processing a harmonic that gives you 95 kHz information and 97 kHz information, doubtful. They may have selected a span of 28 frequencies that cover the full bandwidth needed for detecting.

But what if Minelab has figured out, or modern electronics, batteries have enabled them to transmit 4 fundamental frequencies instead of just 2, providing full strength information at those two additional frequencies plus strengthening the harmonic frequencies at those spots on the band. Pure theory.

If I had to make a guess I think the Equinox is probably partially about frequencies, and a whole lot more about processing SPEED. Look at the timings on a PI machine, you are dealing with very small periods of time during the cycle of transmitting a signal, receiving a signal back, all the while the induced signal in the target is fading fast. Increase the processing speed 400% and it may open up a whole new level of things that can be done during this tiny period of time via electronics and software.

Yes it could be market pressure forcing Minelab to bring a machine like this to market at that price point. I'm still not hearing the Equinox has both conductive and ferrous target information like the Explorer/eTrac/CTX so maybe that's something they are holding back. The Equinox competitors don't seem to be offering that. TBD how the Equinox compares to the flagship machines in the accuracy of its target ID. It probably doesn't have all the GPS type bells and whistles of the CTX which I don't really care about. Doesn't have a color screen. Still it seems confusing, but your explanation makes the most sense just market pressure.

Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: synthnut
Date: October 01, 2017 10:44AM
I would have to think that ML has done their homework, and has determined what the magic number is whereby they can sell the most detectors to the most people and still turn a good profit......The technology is probably all figured out......All that's left now is basically wait and see......

" Believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear "

Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: "Carolina"
Date: October 01, 2017 10:44AM
Charles, thank you for your thoughtful input. I would remind you though, that soil, contains EMI, at varying strength and varies from area to area. This is why I noise cancel with my coil near or on the ground, not waist high in the air. This is where I hunt. Noise cancel is about EMI & RFI but it exists in the ground as well as the air. As far as the channel or frequencies chosen, I probably should have discussed mineralization as well. Wish you all the luck with your hunts!

Carolina



MINELAB CTX 3030
MINELAB Excalibur II
MINELAB Excalibur 1000
MINELAB Excalibur Gold Sword
VALLON VMH3CS
WHITES Dual Field



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2017 11:11AM by "Carolina".

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Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: October 01, 2017 11:28AM
Quote
Charles (Upstate NY)
Quote
sgoss66
Charles -- just about the time I say I don't understand, along you come to put things into layman's terms enough that I can understand it!

My question -- is there enough power in a transmitted "6th harmonic" to induce enough "eddy current" in a target, such that the electrical field then induced in the target can be "heard" by the receive coil?

As for the price point and your "what's the catch" radar, I totally agree. Totally. The only answer I've come up with so far is, either the price reflects what the performance will be (mid range), OR ELSE, the amount of competition that has come into the market over the last several years has forced -- through competition/capitalism arguments -- an environment where $2500 flagship machines aren't going to work anymore. Perhaps Minelab is being drug, kicking and screaming, into a reality where in order to maintain market share, they have had to accept a reality that there aren't enough $2500 customers out there, because there are other folks offering high performance, for far less cost. So, you need to draw in the much wider pool of $900 customers -- while giving them high-end performance in this otherwise "mid-level" price range because if you don't include that PERFORMANCE with your attractive price point ,there is lots of competition out there who are doing so...

Steve

Steve I don't think Minelab would waste their time processing harmonic frequencies unless they are providing target and soil information that's useful. The flip side of that is, that's probably why FBS is 28 frequencies and not 104 frequencies right. Looking at this a different way, if you have a harmonic giving you 100 kHz information is there value in processing a harmonic that gives you 95 kHz information and 97 kHz information, doubtful. They may have selected a span of 28 frequencies that cover the full bandwidth needed for detecting.

But what if Minelab has figured out, or modern electronics, batteries have enabled them to transmit 4 fundamental frequencies instead of just 2, providing full strength information at those two additional frequencies plus strengthening the harmonic frequencies at those spots on the band. Pure theory.

If I had to make a guess I think the Equinox is probably partially about frequencies, and a whole lot more about processing SPEED. Look at the timings on a PI machine, you are dealing with very small periods of time during the cycle of transmitting a signal, receiving a signal back, all the while the induced signal in the target is fading fast. Increase the processing speed 400% and it may open up a whole new level of things that can be done during this tiny period of time via electronics and software.

Yes it could be market pressure forcing Minelab to bring a machine like this to market at that price point. I'm still not hearing the Equinox has both conductive and ferrous target information like the Explorer/eTrac/CTX so maybe that's something they are holding back. The Equinox competitors don't seem to be offering that. TBD how the Equinox compares to the flagship machines in the accuracy of its target ID. It probably doesn't have all the GPS type bells and whistles of the CTX which I don't really care about. Doesn't have a color screen. Still it seems confusing, but your explanation makes the most sense just market pressure.

Very interesting stuff there, Charles. Thought-provoking.

As for the CO/FE stuff, I fully agree with you...I love having both numbers, and the extra info they provide in terms of understanding what's under the coil. BUT...

Here's a thought. I feel that the FE number is MUCH more useful on the Explorer, than the E-Trac. On the Explorer, how the FE number varies tells you a lot about target type, depth, etc. BUT, look at what they did to the FE number on the E-Trac...they tried to "normalize" everything on the FE side to "12". That number will still "move" some, on a deep target, so there is still some information to glean there, but "normalizing" the FE number to "12" made it less useful, to me. Then, as I have heard, the FE number is even MORE stable, on the CTX. Apparently, "12" is pretty solid on most targets. And I guess, if you think about it, if they PERFECTLY normalized FE to "12," it could be argued then, that the "12" -- i.e. the FE number overall -- is not necessary anymore. If a quarter is ALWAYS a 12-45 or 46, a Merc is ALWAYS a 12-44 or 45, a nickel is ALWAYS a 12-12 or 13, then at some point that "12" is superfluous, and you might as well just say the quarter is a 45 or 46, etc.

I don't necessarily AGREE with this approach, but I guess it is possible that IF they are able to more effectively pull the "contamination" that happens to the FE number on deep targets (due to mineralized ground) OUT of the target ID -- in other words, more perfectly compensate for ground minerals such that they don't contaminate the target ID, then I guess you could theoretically give a pure TARGET ID, without the need for "FE" information, right? Is the Equinox THAT good, that it has made the need for FE information "obsolete" (by effectively dealing with ground mineralization behind the scenes SO WELL, that it doesn't contaminate target ID anymore??)

Steve



Minelab Explorer SE Pro, Fisher F19
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche 38D "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: Charles (Upstate NY)
Date: October 01, 2017 12:02PM
Quote
"Carolina"
Charles, thank you for your thoughtful input. I would remind you though, that soil, contains EMI, at varying strength and varies from area to area. This is why I noise cancel with my coil near or on the ground, not waist high in the air. This is where I hunt. Noise cancel is about EMI & RFI but it exists in the ground as well as the air. As far as the channel or frequencies chosen, I probably should have discussed mineralization as well. Wish you all the luck with your hunts!

Carolina

Ditto I always noise cancel with my coil sitting on the ground, motionless. But I do so because holding the coil waste high in the air, the coil basically being a big copper wire antenna, would catch EMI it won't see flat on the ground on edge to the EMI in the air.

I once detecting a site near Boston, off in the distance was some kind of radio transmission station. I was mostly fine with the EMI when my coil was flat to the ground, but when I put my machine down to dig a target and the coil front was tipped up slightly I could dang near hear Lady Gaga in my headphones. Even my X probe if I pointed it at the station would pick this up.

EMI in the soil, yes of course but this is going to be 60 cycle power line EMI most often from underground power cables, though if you are detecting in the area of overhead power lines it can come from above. Noise cancel doesn't help too much 60 cycle EMI, I crank back the sensitivity in those situations. Wireless dog fences are another example if buried in the ground of from below EMI. But agree with you fully any EMI that may be present in the ground, good practice doing your noise cancel with the coil on the ground. :thumbup:

Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: Charles (Upstate NY)
Date: October 01, 2017 12:10PM
Quote
sgoss66
I feel that the FE number is MUCH more useful on the Explorer, than the E-Trac. On the Explorer, how the FE number varies tells you a lot about target type, depth, etc. BUT, look at what they did to the FE number on the E-Trac...they tried to "normalize" everything on the FE side to "12".Steve

Hence my hatred of the eDud and why I kick its ass on a routine basis with my Se Pro, Minelab went full retard on that change, don't get me started. LOL

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Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: Wayfarer
Date: October 01, 2017 01:14PM
I wish I still had my CTX or my Sovereign, I could easily tell you guys what frequencies BBS and FBS uses. I have a VLF spectrum analyzer here as part of my ham radio calibration and test equipment, but unfortunately I didn't have that back when I had my BBS/FBS detectors.

I just measured my V3i and was surprised to find that 22/5 kHz was the cleanest signal with the fewest harmonics, 7.5 next cleanest with a couple harmonics, and 2.5 kHz had by far the most harmonics. No wonder some V3i guys say that 7.5 is the best overall frequency for coinshooting, it is putting out the cleanest signal yet at a decently low frequency for high conductors.

Now I really can't wait to get my Equinox and see exactly what frequencies it is putting out. I preordered one last week and am supposedly one of the first in line in Idaho (behind Brandon of course!).



Current detectors: White's V3i, MXT, XL Pro
Past: White's XLT, 6000D Series 3, Coinmaster 2DB, Minelab CTX 3030, Fisher Gold Bug Pro
Location: Western Idaho

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Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: October 01, 2017 01:19PM
Quote
Charles (Upstate NY)
Quote
sgoss66
I feel that the FE number is MUCH more useful on the Explorer, than the E-Trac. On the Explorer, how the FE number varies tells you a lot about target type, depth, etc. BUT, look at what they did to the FE number on the E-Trac...they tried to "normalize" everything on the FE side to "12".Steve

Hence my hatred of the eDud and why I kick its ass on a routine basis with my Se Pro, Minelab went full retard on that change, don't get me started. LOL

LOL! I can't say I disagree with you... :)

But, like I said, if they really could compensate PERFECTLY for ground minerals (which is likely impossible), then I could see where having an FE number would not be all that necessary, right? I mean, as I see it, FBS is "good" at -- better than any other VLF platform I am aware of -- at separating mineralized ground contamination out of and away from "conductive target ID info." And then, what relatively small amount of ground mineralization DOES "bleed through," they do a good job of keeping it pretty much confined to the "FE" side of things, not affecting the CO number much. Now, if they could make it PERFECT, such that they compensate for ground nearly perfectly such that NO ground mineralization information "bled into" target ID, then perhaps, maybe, it would work to eliminate the FE number, and just give us a single, "pure" CO value. I just don't know. Maybe they think that's where they are at, with the Equinox? That it copes with bad ground SO well, that they've managed with this platform to separate target from ground SO WELL, that they don't NEED to display target info in a 2D, FE/CO manner?

Steve



Minelab Explorer SE Pro, Fisher F19
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche 38D "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

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Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: October 01, 2017 01:20PM
Wayfarer -- I'll be interested to see what you come up with...

Steve



Minelab Explorer SE Pro, Fisher F19
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche 38D "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

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Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: Wayfarer
Date: October 01, 2017 01:37PM
I don't want to veer too far off topic of the FBS frequencies, but here is an example of how I can use my spectrum analyzer to determine frequencies, and what the output looks like. This is what I just looked at for my V3i in 2.5, 7.5, 22.5, and 3-freq. The harmonics don't seem to affect the output signal strength, they all are about -60 dBm on the fundamental frequency, regardless of the harmonics. However, you can clearly see that in 3-frequency mode, each of the three fundamental frequencies are down in strength to -65 dBm to -70 dBm, confirming that multi-freq mode "spreads" the output power among the three frequencies.

The V3i is probably the closest to how the Equinox operates, so it should be easy to do a similar measurement of the Equinox when the time comes.








Current detectors: White's V3i, MXT, XL Pro
Past: White's XLT, 6000D Series 3, Coinmaster 2DB, Minelab CTX 3030, Fisher Gold Bug Pro
Location: Western Idaho


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Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: Wayfarer
Date: October 01, 2017 02:30PM
Looking at my results with the V3i, it dawned on me that these aren't harmonics at all, but most likely just the results of taking the 22.5 kHz frequency and dividing it to obtain the desired "other" frequencies and suppressing, but not entirely eliminating, the undesired freqs with filters. It seems the V3i operates primarily at 22.5 kHz and 7.5 and 2.5 are simply the result of dividing, For example, 22.5/3=7.5, which also includes a 15 kHz signal which is suppressed. And the 2.5 kHz freq is simply 22.5 divided by 9 with the intermediate freqs suppressed. Very interesting!

So using this technique, it would be easy to determine the transmitting frequencies of the Equinox or FBS machines. However, we still wouldn't know how the received frequencies are being digitally processed. Some transmitted frequencies could be ignored, like with the V3i. But it would still be very revealing to at least know which exact frequencies FBS machines were being transmitted on. I may try to borrow a CTX or etrac and conduct the same measurements.

Or maybe somebody with a CTX could borrow an RF spectrum analyzer and run this measurement, which would also answer the OP's question.



Current detectors: White's V3i, MXT, XL Pro
Past: White's XLT, 6000D Series 3, Coinmaster 2DB, Minelab CTX 3030, Fisher Gold Bug Pro
Location: Western Idaho



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2017 02:53PM by Wayfarer.

Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: Charles (Upstate NY)
Date: October 01, 2017 02:38PM
Quote
sgoss66
then I could see where having an FE number would not be all that necessary, right? Steve

I don't use the numeric display on my SE Pro, its the display of fail. Hats off to Minelab the SE Pro feeds your brain a LOT of target information. But the information is too complex and coming at you too fast to process with the numeric display imo, for that your brain needs the Smartfind screen in all metal.

Complexity...target orientation and co-location of targets with trash, nails, rotted iron remnants and mineralization. Fortunately the greatest discrimination circuit ever created is available, your human brain. Able to simultaneously process multiple targets, the cursor locations and bounce patterns, in unison with tone ID, target shape and depth in the tones as you sweep. Take away the Smartfind screen and I'm half blind.

The FE axis of the Smartfind screen is important to me for hunting gold. Probably the most variable target out there, 9k, 10k, 14k, 18k, white gold, yellow gold, comes in all shapes and sizes. FE can also be important for hunting silver coins, you ever dig a silver coin way over near rusty nail area close (but not in) the top left corner of the screen? They are there, also buttons up in that top/left corner area. Without FE all I have is conductivity to go on. Bobby pins way over in the bottom left corner of the screen but you can find some interesting jewelry and relics over there, again not buried right in the corner, but to the right of that.

Wait, I'm back to why I hate the eTrac lol.

Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: Ksdirt
Date: October 01, 2017 05:38PM
Sgoss66 I think you are on the right track as far as the price point...what if the price was say around the $1700 mark would this make it a high end machine then...? ..or would they just fill better about there $2500 machine ...how dare they sell a better machine then mine for $900... Or even equal to it...

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Re: how many diff. friq. does fbs use at one time?
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: October 02, 2017 02:35AM
Very interesting stuff, Wayfarer. Will be interesting to see what your analyzer shows on an FBS machine, and on the Equinox. Like you said, this tells us nothing about how these signals are being processed, but it does reveal some interesting stuff about the transmit frequencies...

What's the unit on the x-axis? Milliseconds?

Steve



Minelab Explorer SE Pro, Fisher F19
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche 38D "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

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