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Re: Trashy Park
Posted by: Tom_in_CA
Date: October 04, 2017 08:50AM
Quote
sgoss66
.... I need some lessons, ....

I know you're just joking around, but let's go with that: You would want those lessons from a tutor who has the skills to do the task. Lest how could they teach a student to do it ? So here's what you do, take them out to a junky blighted park, and say "show me". Grant that their tone systems are not 100% perfect. Ok, so ... 1 in 50 ? 1 in 100 ? I don't think you'll get anyone to take you up on the challenge. Instead, you will hear the sound of crickets.

I had this debate with a dealer here in CA , that tells newbies they can ,.... if they try hard enough, .... attain a skill level where "gold sound different than aluminum". But each time they dig the items that fool them, then ... of course .... it's "except those type items" and "except these items", etc... At a certain point, you have to honestly ask yourselves and them: "At what point does it become random chance?" Or realize that they're actually just notching (nothing wrong with that). And that aluminum and alloyed gold do NOT have "different sounds"

Re: Trashy Park
Posted by: Tom_in_CA
Date: October 04, 2017 08:56AM
Quote
sgoss66
.... That said, think about a Memorial cent, a wheat cent, and an Indian Head. ALL are supposed to be the same composition (or at least, the same amount of copper in each), but BOY do they read different. An 04-28 or 05-28 is a memorial penny on an Explorer (air test) while an Indian is an 07-24. Wheats are usually somewhere between, usually closer to the Memorial than the Indian Head. Makes no sense. .....

This has been an oft-discussed topic. Ie.: if the coin-book shows exact same composition of teens wheaties vs 40s/50s wheaties, then why do they sound different ? Same Q for IH's vs wheaties. In theory then, the sound should be the same , right ? But as we've all experienced, they read different.

Here's why: The source of the copper , over the differing decades, comes from different places. So for example Uncle Sam might be buying copper , on the open market, from Montana mining. And a few decades later, then next copper strike source could Arizona. And so forth. Therefore, since all metals contain trace elements even-after refining, those trace elements affect the TID. For example, notice that not all gold is the same. There's rose gold vs yellow gold, depending on where it was mined from. And the TID's can skew slightly between them, on a size-per-size basis comparison.

Re: Trashy Park
Posted by: Charles (Upstate NY)
Date: October 04, 2017 09:00AM
Quote
Southwind
Yes, I understand the gold concept. I can hear that. But I've had many barbers ring up with the exact same numbers as mercs. The tone generated by the E-Trac comes from one of the 1500 ID segments generated by the FE & CO. In principal there should be little difference between the tone of two coins with the same ID segment. I.E. 11-42 barber vs 11-42 merc. I would think the tone generator circuit would produce the same tone for an ID of 1142 be it a barber or merc. Unless I have the concept all wrong.

There is shape in the tone as the target is swept its not about pitch of the tone 1-1500. I can't speak for the eTrac I hate that machine, no offense.

Re: Trashy Park
Posted by: Tom_in_CA
Date: October 04, 2017 09:01AM
Quote
dbado1
I swing a GPX for gold nuggets and use a mono coil %99.99 of the time...no disc. Over time a guy develops "an ear" for the "gold "tones". I can tell prior to digging the target, with great accuracy, if it's gold or not.
It has a sweet, mellow sound that is just slightly different than anything else.

Dean

Did you mean just for nugget hunting ? (where the enemy is iron, or birdshot pellets, etc... in nugget hunt environs). Or did you mean you could apply this learned skill to park hunting too ? If you meant it for parks too, then I would LOVE to see this skill in action. I would fly you out, at my expense, take you to Golden gate park's hippy-hill, and turn you loose. Heck, I'd even treat you to a 6 pack of your favorite brew, spring for your hotel expenses, etc... Deal ? :cheers:

Re: Trashy Park
Posted by: Charles (Upstate NY)
Date: October 04, 2017 09:05AM
Quote
Tom_in_CA
Quote
sgoss66
.... I need some lessons, ....

I know you're just joking around, but let's go with that: You would want those lessons from a tutor who has the skills to do the task. Lest how could they teach a student to do it ? So here's what you do, take them out to a junky blighted park, and say "show me". Grant that their tone systems are not 100% perfect. Ok, so ... 1 in 50 ? 1 in 100 ? I don't think you'll get anyone to take you up on the challenge. Instead, you will hear the sound of crickets.

I had this debate with a dealer here in CA , that tells newbies they can ,.... if they try hard enough, .... attain a skill level where "gold sound different than aluminum". But each time they dig the items that fool them, then ... of course .... it's "except those type items" and "except these items", etc... At a certain point, you have to honestly ask yourselves and them: "At what point does it become random chance?" Or realize that they're actually just notching (nothing wrong with that). And that aluminum and alloyed gold do NOT have "different sounds"

Several users of different machines have now chimed in that they can call their shot on gold with some degree of accuracy.

avatar
Re: Trashy Park
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: October 04, 2017 09:06AM
Quote
Charles (Upstate NY)
Do you have FAST on or off? What about DEEP on or off? Are you running in all metal? Swing speed and swing technique on the target? I let the Explorer feed on the target signal, short 1-3 inch wide swings not fast, not slow motion but a slight dragging across the target. The faster you swing the less target information, FAST On will make this much worse. DEEP on will do the opposite fattening up targets 6 inches and below. So Fast On Deep Off is the double whammy in the opposite direction. When I hit a target I zoom in and let the Explorer feast on the signal with short moderate speed swings.

A gold wedding band signal is HUGE. The thing is like 2 feet wide in long tones, long tones show you just how large the signal is you can detect it outside the side/front of your coil its that large. Now start applying your settings, first switch to normal tones what just happened, yes it chopped off a whole bunch of the target signal to make it "appear" smaller as you sweep it. Obviously this helps with pin pointing and long tones in trash well forget it right but you did just lose a bunch of target signal by chopping it down to size with normal tones. Fast On chops off more of the target signal making it even smaller. Deep off if the target is 6 inches or deeper is similar to Fast On, the target seems smaller as you sweep it just due to depth, Deep on boosts the signal fattening it up.

Discrimination vs all metal, if you have a solid threshold and no nulling then it shouldn't matter. But if the machine is nulling then target then nulling, or trying to null or bits of null the I'd switch to iron mask setup as all metal and sweep the target again all metal getting rid of the nulls.

The RX (receive) winding in the coil delivers the best fullest possible signal to the control box. The TX (transmit) winding transmits at full power, always, no matter what your settings are. So here comes the full 100% signal from RX, after Minelab filters out the soil part of the signal, your settings take over. Your settings further chop pieces of this signal off, whittling it down. That's how to think about your settings. The more aggressive you are with your settings the more chunks of the target signal you chop off. You can boost what's left with gain and volume but you are boosting the chopped up part of the signal that's left.

This is where a lot of people get the Explorer backwards. They increase their gain then decrease their sensitivity because running their gain too high is boosting small false signals so high in volume they sound like targets. But what happens when you lower the sensitivity? Yes you chop off parts of the signal and frequently you chop off the entire target. That's the gotcha because your sensitivity setting is applied FIRST, then gain SECOND. So if you lower your sensitivity, deleting the target completely, there's nothing left for the gain to boost. Crank the gain to 10 it doesn't matter, the deep target is long gone due to lowering the sensitivity. It doesn't take much, a solid signal on a deep target can break up lowering your sensitivity 2 points and vanish lowering it 4 points.

Charles, I always run fast off, deep off, and almost always Iron Mask 22. But I can clearly see how it could matter, tonally. I also do that "Minelab wiggle" that you describe, when I hit a good signal, allowing the machine to really "interrogate" the target. I run max manual sensitivity, and then run my gain at 8 (just to make deeper targets sound a tad "quieter" -- it's like using the depth gauge without having to look at it). That's the way I normally run my machine.

THANKS for the info on that the Tx, Rx, and then sensitivity, gain, etc. work with respect to the target signal. I roughly knew that, but it's great to be reminded...

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Explorer SE Pro
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

avatar
Re: Trashy Park
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: October 04, 2017 09:08AM
Quote
Tom_in_CA
Quote
sgoss66
.... I need some lessons, ....

I know you're just joking around, but let's go with that: You would want those lessons from a tutor who has the skills to do the task. Lest how could they teach a student to do it ? So here's what you do, take them out to a junky blighted park, and say "show me". Grant that their tone systems are not 100% perfect. Ok, so ... 1 in 50 ? 1 in 100 ? I don't think you'll get anyone to take you up on the challenge. Instead, you will hear the sound of crickets.

I had this debate with a dealer here in CA , that tells newbies they can ,.... if they try hard enough, .... attain a skill level where "gold sound different than aluminum". But each time they dig the items that fool them, then ... of course .... it's "except those type items" and "except these items", etc... At a certain point, you have to honestly ask yourselves and them: "At what point does it become random chance?" Or realize that they're actually just notching (nothing wrong with that). And that aluminum and alloyed gold do NOT have "different sounds"

I tend to agree with this, though Charles may really have ears that can do this...



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Explorer SE Pro
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

Re: Trashy Park
Posted by: Charles (Upstate NY)
Date: October 04, 2017 09:22AM
Quote
sgoss66
Charles, I always run fast off, deep off, and almost always Iron Mask 22. But I can clearly see how it could matter, tonally. I also do that "Minelab wiggle" that you describe, when I hit a good signal, allowing the machine to really "interrogate" the target. I run max manual sensitivity, and then run my gain at 8 (just to make deeper targets sound a tad "quieter" -- it's like using the depth gauge without having to look at it). That's the way I normally run my machine.

THANKS for the info on that the Tx, Rx, and then sensitivity, gain, etc. work with respect to the target signal. I roughly knew that, but it's great to be reminded...

Steve

Your settings sound perfect, I prefer deep on to boost deep targets, on the east coast stuff is deep really deep. I'd run my gain at 8 if the soil and rotted bits of iron allowed it, most times I have to lower it to 7 due to soil and bits of iron falsing. Gain of 8 will boost the signal on deep silver dimes from whisper to solid in volume so if I could run my gain at 8 without having to lower my sensitivity definitely. My sensitivity at most sites is between 26 and 28 manual. I try not to go lower than 26. 29 to 30 and I run into issues with rotted iron and mineralization falsing, you get where you can't see the forest for the trees.

I forgot to ask, Ferrous tones or Conductive?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2017 09:23AM by Charles (Upstate NY).

Re: Trashy Park
Posted by: Tom_in_CA
Date: October 04, 2017 09:59AM
Quote
Charles (Upstate NY)
.... Several users of different machines have now chimed in that they can call their shot on gold with some degree of accuracy.

Yes, I see that. And when the subject comes up on forums, yes, there will always be a few who believe there is sound differences.

But as I have suggested: This notion is probably due to the subconscious mental trick of selective memory bias. Each time any of us goes to dig a signal, we think "this one sounds different". And we promptly forget our premonitions when it turns out to be trash. Or say to ourselves "yeah, come to think of it, it DID sound junky". But ONLY when it turns out to be a gold ring, do we THEN remember our premonitions and say "aha! I knew it !"

It's the same thing for when you wake up to your radio alarm clock, that's playing the EXACT song you were just dreaming about. So think "aha! I'm psychic". When actually what's happened is that you dream hundreds of dreams per night, none of which come true. And promptly forget them within 30 seconds of waking up. But if one coincidentally comes true, then you remember only-that-one.

So too do I think the same thing is at play with the gold vs aluminum discussion. And if I'm wrong, as I say, I would LOVE to see it in action. If someone can come to CA to show it, I'll pay for airline flight, hotel stay, etc.... I will take them straight to various urban parks, and ..... let's see it.

Re: Trashy Park
Posted by: Tom_in_CA
Date: October 04, 2017 10:03AM
Quote
sgoss66
... I tend to agree with this, though Charles may really have ears that can do this...

I too wish I was wrong. And while I don't believe it can be done (better than notching and guessing and luck), I'm willing to be proven wrong. The dealer in CA who tells newbies (who promptly go beat their brains out digging trash "looking for the sound the dealer told them about") will not put a # on the ratios. I asked him : 1 in 50 ? 1 in 100 ? etc... He would not put a # on it. To which I then asked: At what point does it become random chance ? And ..... get the sound of crickets.

Here's what I ought to do, gold vs aluminum sounds debate:
Posted by: Tom_in_CA
Date: October 04, 2017 10:09AM
Hey guys, as you can see, I love the topic of whether or not someone can really learn the sounds of gold vs aluminum. To achieve ratios that exceed random chance, and that are not merely "notching" :

I should put a public reward out there ($10,000 or whatever) for anyone who can demonstrate the ability to show the difference, in a staged double blind test. Kind of like how the Amazing Randi put out his prize for anyone who could demonstrate psychic abilities.

So for example, a test garden of planted targets would be done with XX # of aluminum objects, and XX # of gold rings. And if the person does indeed get, a defined certain percent correct, (say, 2 out of 3), then the stage II of the test is to take the person to a junky urban park. Because, in theory, wouldn't they be able to have a 2 out of 3 ratio there too ?

Re: Trashy Park
Posted by: Charles (Upstate NY)
Date: October 04, 2017 10:34AM
All...it depends on how much gold you have dug which I noted in my original post. Who can call their shot on silver? Probably most everyone because most everyone has dug enough silver now to learn how it sounds. I have dug POUNDS of gold jewelry on iron/trash infested 200 plus year old east coast beaches. At some point during this process I picked up on how at least some gold sounds distinct to the point that I can point and say that sounds like gold with a reasonable degree of accuracy. Again as I pointed out in my original post its not 100%, there are gold targets I cannot distinguish.

Don't make the mistake I made. After a few years I felt I had mastered the Explorer and nobody could tell me any different. I knew it all, learned everything there was to learn, written in stone. Then proved myself ignorant over the next 10 years breaking down or finding exceptions to many things I had thought were rock solid. Today I'd like to think I'm more open to learning something new and pay more attention to other people's field reports.

Re: Trashy ParkN/T
Posted by: Charles (Upstate NY)
Date: October 04, 2017 10:36AM

(This message does not contain any text.)

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2017 10:53AM by Charles (Upstate NY).

Re: Trashy Park
Posted by: Tom_in_CA
Date: October 04, 2017 10:43AM
Quote
Charles (Upstate NY)
.... Again as I pointed out in my original post its not 100%, there are gold targets I cannot distinguish.....

Can you venture a ratio guesstimate ? Eg.: 1 in 50 ? etc....

I will fly out on my tab to SF, spring for your hotel and meals, if you can show the ability. My treat. But if it turns out to be random chance odds, then .... your treat. Deal ?

Re: Trashy Park
Posted by: Charles (Upstate NY)
Date: October 04, 2017 11:05AM
Quote
Tom_in_CA
Quote
Charles (Upstate NY)
.... Again as I pointed out in my original post its not 100%, there are gold targets I cannot distinguish.....

Can you venture a ratio guesstimate ? Eg.: 1 in 50 ? etc....

I will fly out on my tab to SF, spring for your hotel and meals, if you can show the ability. My treat. But if it turns out to be random chance odds, then .... your treat. Deal ?

I'd rather not guess as I never documented this while hunting east coast beaches. Consider this, in my day job I have to identify complex patterns so my brain has become wired to notice them. At some point digging gold I began picking up on a subtle difference in how a gold ring sounds vs trash or nickel. Then I began listening for this, and it was happening frequently enough that my pattern radar went off. It was frequent enough that I began thinking about tonal qualities of metals in my guitar amp building.

Forget gold for a moment, lets talk platinum rings. Guitar players will get this analogy, if you added a fuzz effect to a gold ring that's how a platinum ring sounds. Unlike gold which the sound is subtle, the unique sound platinum produces that fuzzy gold sound is so distinct it will blow your headphones off. And platinum rings ID between foil and nickel. Get an Excalibur coil over a platinum ring WOW! So metals can have a distinct sound. Silver sounds distinct to me. Copper pennies sound distinct from silver.

Anyway food for thought.

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