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Re: What is Muti-IQ
Posted by: dewcon4414
Date: October 18, 2017 05:33AM
ML has always said their machines IGNORES the ground and for the most part CON digits have always been more accurate than FE. Maybe they have found a way to reduce wrap around from iron/minerals improving the CON digits even more. They may have just found a better way to filter/process signals. No matter what it is or does....... the end result ...... sensitivity, separation, and depth will dictate how well this machine sells. Is it just a $900 machine........or will we get more than our moneys worth on this one?

Dew



Xcal II, Blue Xcal 1000, Sov GT, Exp SE
Whatever you do in life, surround yourself with smart people who'll argue with you.... John Wooden.
D. Meeker

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Re: What is Muti-IQ
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: October 18, 2017 08:27AM
Quote
metalpopper
[
Hi Sube !

Note the highlighted / underlined part of your post (quote}.

(1) My reply to that statement is:- 'Pulse' doesn't ignore the effect of FERROUS.
(2) Note the fact also, that the search-coil illustrated on the Equinox, appears to be a normal Induction Balanced DD design,
.......which also DOESN'T IGNORE THE EFFECT OF IRON/FERROUS.

What's the crap about "You don't need the FE part of a target's ID?

"What the hell is the significance of the PLUS and MINUS then"?

With respect Sube; you need to spend more time on learning about the basics, rather than posting questionable 'facts' of the physics involved in metal detecting.....matt

Matt, if a pulse machine is, as I understand it, based on the premise that induced electromagnetic fields in both soil, and in metal targets of varying compositions, will decay at a certain, roughly "known" rate after being exposed to a transmitted electromagnetic pulse, and if then you set your "timing" so as to be longer than the electromagnetic field decay rate associated with soil minerals, then could it not be roughly, loosely said that you are "ignoring" soil mineralization, which is what I think sube is alluding to?

I might also add, Matt, that it sounds to me like -- while criticizing sube's understanding of the "basics," -- you really didn't understand what he was saying. If I understand the "plus" and "minus" numbers correctly, the "minus" numbers indicate ferrous targets, and the plus values "non-ferrous" targets. That has nothing to do with what sube was referring to when talking about maybe "not needing" the FE number. He wasn't saying you won't need to know whether a target is ferrous or not, which is what you implied he was saying. That is not the purpose of the FE number. The FE number, based on my understanding of how detectors work in general, and on my experience in using FBS units and gaining a sense for what the FE/CO numbers do, is that ground contamination of a target's "conductivity" is "dealt with" separately -- most likely on a separate frequency or frequencies in some way -- by FBS and its signal-processing algorithms. This "stripped out" conductivity is then "included in" or "moved over to" the FE side of the target ID value, allowing what remains to be a more "pure" target conductivity, and is displayed in the CO number. All sube was saying, as I understand it, is that maybe Multi-IQ offers even better "removal" of target conductivity "bias" caused by soil "conductivity," such that displaying the FE number isn't really necessary as much -- just a relatively pure "target CO" number will suffice...

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Explorer SE Pro
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D "King of Spades"

Norman, OK



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/2017 08:48AM by sgoss66.

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Re: What is Muti-IQ
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: October 18, 2017 08:36AM
Quote
dewcon4414
ML has always said their machines IGNORES the ground and for the most part CON digits have always been more accurate than FE. Maybe they have found a way to reduce wrap around from iron/minerals improving the CON digits even more. They may have just found a better way to filter/process signals. No matter what it is or does....... the end result ...... sensitivity, separation, and depth will dictate how well this machine sells. Is it just a $900 machine........or will we get more than our moneys worth on this one?

Dew

Excellent post, Dew. Totally agree.

One last thing, regarding the "ML has always said their machines ignore the ground," and which I alluded to in my prior post. I have heard it said that FBS is sort of a VLF/Pulse hybrid. I don't know how that works exactly, but it appears to me that somehow the soil mineral effects (conductivity) which -- as I understand it, are sort of "mixed in," to some degree, with returned target "conductivity" signal on a single frequency VLF unit -- are somehow "dealt with separately" by FBS, presumably "comparing" signals from different frequencies in some sort of "time domain," and then "removing" to some degree the soil "conductivity" contamination that would otherwise be included within the "target conductivity." Then, this "contamination" is apparently "moved into and included within" the FE number, leaving a more "pure" or "uncontaminated" CO number.

IF my basic, loose understanding above is correct, I would expect that what you said is true -- that Minelab, in Multi-IQ, has found a way to improve further upon this ability to "deal with" and "separate out" soil conductivity from target conductivity...and from that perspective, it is at least within the realm of plausibility that what sube is alluding to could be correct, that it could be conceivable that this would reduce the need to display an "FE" number at all. Just a good, relatively "clean" CO number (either indicating ferrous targets, or non-ferrous targets).



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Explorer SE Pro
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D "King of Spades"

Norman, OK



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/2017 08:51AM by sgoss66.

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Re: What is Muti-IQ
Posted by: Jason in Enid
Date: October 18, 2017 10:48AM
Quote
sgoss66
I have heard it said that FBS is sort of a VLF/Pulse hybrid. I don't know how that works exactly,

Because they completely changed HOW the signal was transmitted and read. A "standard VLF" (which lots of people falsely claim FBS is) puts out a round sine wave RF signal. Think of that like an ocean wave constantly going up and down. The target is charged with RF, which it re-emits. The return signal is read solely based on the signal shift from the baseline of the transmitted signal. This is also how standard VLF ground balance works. You are really only adjusting the base signal that the detector is comparing to.

FBS sends out square wave pulses (like ON and OFF) it does with multiple frequencies for differing time durations. Then it reads the RF return from the TIME DOMAIN, which is how pulse induction detectors read the signal.

This is why FBS detectors are unique and truly like a kind of hybrid PI and VLF.

Re: What is Muti-IQ
Posted by: "Carolina"
Date: October 18, 2017 11:12AM
Square waves can be analyzed as a sum of multiple frequencies and it appears that is what Minelab does. Nothing new there. I do however think they are the best detectors on the market and therefore look forward to the Eqinox. I do not however think it can or will replace the CTX or ET. We will just have to wait and see.



MINELAB CTX 3030
MINELAB Excalibur II
MINELAB Excalibur 1000
MINELAB Excalibur Gold Sword
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Re: What is Muti-IQ
Posted by: dewcon4414
Date: October 18, 2017 05:30PM
It may not in the dirt......ill settle for a lessor machine, but it may well be competitive in salt water with the CTX. I use both the Xcals and CTX....... and the Xcal holds it own as a lessor machine so they say. There is a lot of advantages i see in this machine starting with simplicity.



Xcal II, Blue Xcal 1000, Sov GT, Exp SE
Whatever you do in life, surround yourself with smart people who'll argue with you.... John Wooden.
D. Meeker

Re: What is Muti-IQ
Posted by: sube
Date: October 18, 2017 06:46PM
Maybe I should of said reduces the effect of ferrous and not ignore :blink:. Steve you kind of got what I was implying you can run the CTX in ferrous or conductive same for the explorers but now the CTX can run in combine (new) better ferrous #s and better conduct #s at the same time . All I am saying is maybe they have refined this even more to the point that the ferrous # is not needed . Looking at the etrac the ferrous #s are not as refined as the CTX the Ctx wants to get everything up to the 12 line if they refined this even more everything would go to the 12 line except iron . So why would you need the ferrous #s part of it . Remember this is a new technology they already had combine and now maybe it's been refined even further with the ability to get rid of the ferrous part of the signal and give a better conduct #.

If you read this I said maybe I don't know just guessing and hoping for the best from minelab . sube

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Yes. Wait and see.....N/T
Posted by: Greg (E.Tn)
Date: October 18, 2017 08:28PM

(This message does not contain any text.)


Re: What is Muti-IQ
Posted by: IDXMonster
Date: October 18, 2017 09:29PM
That's an interesting analysis Sube. There may be ways of zeroing in even more on target ID which should be beneficial. Personally,I always look at HOW the target responds,and does it respond the SAME WAY most of the time. I think most of us do this...how repetitive the target is. If the Equinox has a way of cleaning up the RESPONSE ITSELF more than what we have now,it'll certainly be a winner for many.
Today after work I stopped for a short hunt at an old village commons that has given me some good coins. I was using the CTX and stock coil. A solid 2 way 12-42 at 7" produced a first year wheat and a mid sized unbent square nail at about the same level. This happens all the time,it's just old hat now. I'm assuming there are situations in which the response wouldn't be so obvious with co-located objects,and the CTX may not give such a good signal. If the Equinox can be even more exact and reliable in finding such targets,I would guess that many people are going to be re-working some worked out places.
Minelab has made some of the best machines ever for coin hunting,really. It's not even opinion driven,it's a RESULTS driven statement. If this new one is indeed of the same lineage as far as "spectacular detectors" go,they'll have a hard time building them fast enough. But it HAS to deliver the goods.

Re: What is Muti-IQ
Posted by: "Carolina"
Date: October 19, 2017 03:49AM
Dew: Funny for me, my thoughts are just the reverse. I feel like the Equinox will be a better dirt machine ( coins ) than a salt water beach machine. It appeared to be released in the UK for a reason maybe. I think it is to compete with the "other" light weight wireless dirt machine. Guess we will just have to wait and see. On a side note, I too feel like my Excal. BBS is the better machine for chest deep water hunting and the CTX shines on damp sand and in the wash. Funny how we all have our own thoughts. One thing for shire is, we all agree on one thing. Minelab is the best detectors in the world.



MINELAB CTX 3030
MINELAB Excalibur II
MINELAB Excalibur 1000
MINELAB Excalibur Gold Sword
VALLON VMH3CS
WHITES Dual Field

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Re: What is Muti-IQ
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: October 19, 2017 09:37AM
dew and Carolina,

Here is something that might apply to what you two are discussing, from Minelab's latest release of info on the Equinox...

"When Minelab use the term “multi-frequency” we mean “simultaneous” – i.e. more than one frequency is transmitted, received AND processed concurrently. This enables maximum target sensitivity across all target types and sizes, while minimising ground noise (especially in saltwater)."

I think this makes it clear that Minelab is using the simultaneous multi-frequency approach to NOT ONLY achieve superior ID accuracy with depth (quote from the same article says "Multi-IQ achieves a high level of target ID accuracy at depth much better than any single frequency detector can achieve"), BUT ALSO, at the same time, using the simultaneous multi-frequency approach to handle/mitigate ground mineralization issues.

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Explorer SE Pro
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

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