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Re: " Multi-IQ copes with saltwater and beach conditions ALMOST as well as BBS/FBS, however BBS/FBS still have an advantage for finding high conductive silver coins in all conditions."
Posted by: Rich (Utah)
Date: October 26, 2017 02:33AM
I’ve read lots of theories on what frequencies are being transmitted on FBS and BBS. I currently own one of each. Carl Moreland just answered some questions Debated here, complete with diagrams. Two sequential frequencies (not simultaneous) 3.125 kHz and 25kHz that can be offset by noise cancel to reduce effects of emi, but always remaining in a 1 to 8 ratio.

The Equinox is advertised at 5 kHz, 10kHz, 15kHz, 20kHz and 40kHz; different frequencies than its’ BBS and FBS siblings. Being that pairs of frequencies were used for BBS and FBS, the question for me is whether the Equinox can use more than a pair of frequencies for each of the search modes to optimize results?

Rich



enjoying the vistas and horizons of the Old West.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2017 02:37AM by Rich (Utah).

avatar
Re: " Multi-IQ copes with saltwater and beach conditions ALMOST as well as BBS/FBS, however BBS/FBS still have an advantage for finding high conductive silver coins in all conditions."
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: October 26, 2017 10:35PM
Rich --

I agree with almost everything you wrote, but -- and I may have missed it -- but I didn't see where Mr. Moreland said the two frequencies were not "simultaneous..."

I guess maybe, there is some ambiguity regarding the word "simultaneous." By "simultaneous," what I personally take it to mean is that you don't have to "switch over" to a different setting or coil to run another frequency. A machine where you have to switch things to utilize other frequencies is, to me, a single-frequency machine -- just one that is capable of running at more than one frequency. Meanwhile, a machine that can run more than one frequency at one time -- i.e. without flipping a switch or changing out a coil -- is a multi-frequency machine. That's how I define it, and from that perspective, I think everyone would agree that FBS is "simultaneous multifrequency."

Now, whether the FBS coil transmits two pulses of two different frequencies at exactly precisely the same time -- who knows. But, either way, if the machine is taking information from both transmissions, and gleaning relevant information from both frequencies, or even "combining" them through software or algorithms, or whatever, to me that's still "simultaneous." In other words, the output to the user (tones, ID, etc.) is originating from data gleaned from two different frequencies being used by the detector "at the same time."

I think "simultaneous" is verbiage that is being added to try and further clarify the differences between different types of machines. In other words, some might call the Deus a "multi-frequency machine," but it's obviously not the same "multifrequency" as a V3i or an E-Trac. One runs one frequency until you swap out coils or flip a switch or whatever, and the other operates using more than one frequency "at once" -- and thus the additional word "simultaneous" is needed to differentiate between a machine like a Deus and a machine like an E-Trac.

I guess I'm just not sure why you said "not simultaneous."

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
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Multi-IQ is ????
Posted by: Rich (Utah)
Date: October 27, 2017 01:16AM
Hi Steve,

I get what you're saying Steve.

In his diagrams, Carl demonstrates that the signals are not at the same time (simultaneous), but happening sequentially, one and then the other.

If you go back and look at the diagrams he posted, you can see that the transmission times of the two frequencies are not overlapping or on top of each other, but sequential, meaning there is one cycle of 3.125kHz followed by 8 cycles of 25kHz followed by 1 cycle of 3.125kHz followed by 8 cycles of 25kHz and so forth. They are all part of the same overall signal from the machine, but the signals aren't happening all at the same instant, they are sequential or serial, first one and then the other. The signal transmissions are very fast of course, 3,125 times a second and 25,000 times a second. You can see the wave forms in both drawings and on the oscilloscope; the upper picture being the voltage measurement and the lower picture being the current measurement.

If you think about it musically, (I'm no musician btw) all of the notes are NOT being played at the same time, rather you have 1 longer note of 3.125kHz followed by 8 shorter notes of 25kHz. It is a pattern. Of interest is the 1 to 8 ratio of the frequencies and the pattern of 1 cycle of 3.125kHz and 8 cycles of 25kHz. If you divide 8 into 25,000 you get 3,125, so you have 1 period of 3.125kHz (1x) and 1 period of 25kHz (8x), back and forth, back and forth. each period is 0.32 milliseconds long. So this pattern is repeating 1562.5 times a second. (hope the math is right)

I hope that makes sense. To most of us, it is all happening so fast, thousands of times a second, that it may appear to be happening all at once, but technically, it isn't.

I found all of this quite enlightening. Over the years, I've looked in the door of some of the heated online debates about BBS and FBS, but never really wanted to walk into the fray. It was quite refreshing to have Carl Moreland take the position of professor and explain it and demonstrate it. Ended the arguments.

Hope that helps.


Rich -



enjoying the vistas and horizons of the Old West.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2017 01:20AM by Rich (Utah).

Multi-IQ, BBS/FBS, What?
Posted by: Rich (Utah)
Date: October 27, 2017 03:15AM
Last note Steve. Yes, you are right, the bbs and fbs and multi-IQ will be doing their multi frequency pattern without anybody having to go to the panel and change from freq a to b to c and so forth. The detector will handle it. It is just that to the engineers, which Carl is, the correct terminology is important.

Rich



enjoying the vistas and horizons of the Old West.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2017 03:21AM by Rich (Utah).

Re: Multi-IQ is ????
Posted by: Charles (Upstate NY)
Date: October 27, 2017 09:45AM
Quote
Rich (Utah)
Hi Steve,

I get what you're saying Steve.

In his diagrams, Carl demonstrates that the signals are not at the same time (simultaneous), but happening sequentially, one and then the other.

If you go back and look at the diagrams he posted, you can see that the transmission times of the two frequencies are not overlapping or on top of each other, but sequential, meaning there is one cycle of 3.125kHz followed by 8 cycles of 25kHz followed by 1 cycle of 3.125kHz followed by 8 cycles of 25kHz and so forth. They are all part of the same overall signal from the machine, but the signals aren't happening all at the same instant, they are sequential or serial, first one and then the other. The signal transmissions are very fast of course, 3,125 times a second and 25,000 times a second. You can see the wave forms in both drawings and on the oscilloscope; the upper picture being the voltage measurement and the lower picture being the current measurement.

If you think about it musically, (I'm no musician btw) all of the notes are NOT being played at the same time, rather you have 1 longer note of 3.125kHz followed by 8 shorter notes of 25kHz. It is a pattern. Of interest is the 1 to 8 ratio of the frequencies and the pattern of 1 cycle of 3.125kHz and 8 cycles of 25kHz. If you divide 8 into 25,000 you get 3,125, so you have 1 period of 3.125kHz (1x) and 1 period of 25kHz (8x), back and forth, back and forth. each period is 0.32 milliseconds long. So this pattern is repeating 1562.5 times a second. (hope the math is right)

I hope that makes sense. To most of us, it is all happening so fast, thousands of times a second, that it may appear to be happening all at once, but technically, it isn't.

I found all of this quite enlightening. Over the years, I've looked in the door of some of the heated online debates about BBS and FBS, but never really wanted to walk into the fray. It was quite refreshing to have Carl Moreland take the position of professor and explain it and demonstrate it. Ended the arguments.

Hope that helps.


Rich -

Do you have a link to Carl's post(s)?

avatar
Re: Multi-IQ is ????
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: October 27, 2017 05:39PM
I get what you are saying, Rich, and I agree. It's just that to a NON-engineer, saying that an FBS unit is "not simultaneous multifrequency" probably "muddies the water" for your average, non-technical detectorist, as it makes it more difficult to understand the differences between, say, a Deus and an E-Trac. But I get what you are saying...

Charles -- there IS a link, but we are not allowed to post it here! ;)

Would you like a PM?

Steve

Quote
Charles (Upstate NY)
Quote
Rich (Utah)
Hi Steve,

I get what you're saying Steve.

In his diagrams, Carl demonstrates that the signals are not at the same time (simultaneous), but happening sequentially, one and then the other.

If you go back and look at the diagrams he posted, you can see that the transmission times of the two frequencies are not overlapping or on top of each other, but sequential, meaning there is one cycle of 3.125kHz followed by 8 cycles of 25kHz followed by 1 cycle of 3.125kHz followed by 8 cycles of 25kHz and so forth. They are all part of the same overall signal from the machine, but the signals aren't happening all at the same instant, they are sequential or serial, first one and then the other. The signal transmissions are very fast of course, 3,125 times a second and 25,000 times a second. You can see the wave forms in both drawings and on the oscilloscope; the upper picture being the voltage measurement and the lower picture being the current measurement.

If you think about it musically, (I'm no musician btw) all of the notes are NOT being played at the same time, rather you have 1 longer note of 3.125kHz followed by 8 shorter notes of 25kHz. It is a pattern. Of interest is the 1 to 8 ratio of the frequencies and the pattern of 1 cycle of 3.125kHz and 8 cycles of 25kHz. If you divide 8 into 25,000 you get 3,125, so you have 1 period of 3.125kHz (1x) and 1 period of 25kHz (8x), back and forth, back and forth. each period is 0.32 milliseconds long. So this pattern is repeating 1562.5 times a second. (hope the math is right)

I hope that makes sense. To most of us, it is all happening so fast, thousands of times a second, that it may appear to be happening all at once, but technically, it isn't.

I found all of this quite enlightening. Over the years, I've looked in the door of some of the heated online debates about BBS and FBS, but never really wanted to walk into the fray. It was quite refreshing to have Carl Moreland take the position of professor and explain it and demonstrate it. Ended the arguments.

Hope that helps.


Rich -

Do you have a link to Carl's post(s)?



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Explorer SE Pro
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

Re: Multi-IQ is ????
Posted by: Rich (Utah)
Date: October 27, 2017 08:58PM
Steve,

For the time being I am going to look at the two types as Multi-Frequency Detectors and Selectable Frequency Detectors. I guess that the equinox, since it can be both multi-frequency and selectable frequency, will be a cross between the two. :blink:

Rich -

Quote
sgoss66
I get what you are saying, Rich, and I agree. It's just that to a NON-engineer, saying that an FBS unit is "not simultaneous multifrequency" probably "muddies the water" for your average, non-technical detectorist, as it makes it more difficult to understand the differences between, say, a Deus and an E-Trac. But I get what you are saying...

Charles -- there IS a link, but we are not allowed to post it here! ;)

Would you like a PM?

Steve

Quote
Charles (Upstate NY)
Quote
Rich (Utah)
Hi Steve,

I get what you're saying Steve.

In his diagrams, Carl demonstrates that the signals are not at the same time (simultaneous), but happening sequentially, one and then the other.

If you go back and look at the diagrams he posted, you can see that the transmission times of the two frequencies are not overlapping or on top of each other, but sequential, meaning there is one cycle of 3.125kHz followed by 8 cycles of 25kHz followed by 1 cycle of 3.125kHz followed by 8 cycles of 25kHz and so forth. They are all part of the same overall signal from the machine, but the signals aren't happening all at the same instant, they are sequential or serial, first one and then the other. The signal transmissions are very fast of course, 3,125 times a second and 25,000 times a second. You can see the wave forms in both drawings and on the oscilloscope; the upper picture being the voltage measurement and the lower picture being the current measurement.

If you think about it musically, (I'm no musician btw) all of the notes are NOT being played at the same time, rather you have 1 longer note of 3.125kHz followed by 8 shorter notes of 25kHz. It is a pattern. Of interest is the 1 to 8 ratio of the frequencies and the pattern of 1 cycle of 3.125kHz and 8 cycles of 25kHz. If you divide 8 into 25,000 you get 3,125, so you have 1 period of 3.125kHz (1x) and 1 period of 25kHz (8x), back and forth, back and forth. each period is 0.32 milliseconds long. So this pattern is repeating 1562.5 times a second. (hope the math is right)

I hope that makes sense. To most of us, it is all happening so fast, thousands of times a second, that it may appear to be happening all at once, but technically, it isn't.

I found all of this quite enlightening. Over the years, I've looked in the door of some of the heated online debates about BBS and FBS, but never really wanted to walk into the fray. It was quite refreshing to have Carl Moreland take the position of professor and explain it and demonstrate it. Ended the arguments.

Hope that helps.


Rich -

Do you have a link to Carl's post(s)?



enjoying the vistas and horizons of the Old West.

avatar
Re: " Multi-IQ copes with saltwater and beach conditions ALMOST as well as BBS/FBS, however BBS/FBS still have an advantage for finding high conductive silver coins in all conditions."
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: October 28, 2017 12:21AM
Rich --

Sounds quite reasonable to me! "Selectable" and "Multi" are good descriptions, but then the Equinox, as you say, would even be a hybrid of that! :)

I guess to me, in my mind, I'm not worried about this nuance because it seems like "semantics." The "simultaneous vs. sequential" thing is really a moot point in my mind, for anyone BUT an engineer. For the detectorist -- since information from MULTIPLE (two, or more) frequencies is being combined/calculated/compared (whatever it is, exactly, that is being done to extract target info from the returned EM energy) and then included as "combined output" to the detectorist (tone, ID number, target trace, cursor on a 2-D screen, whatever), then to me that's where the "simultaneous" part is "proper to say," and "relevant" to my detecting. I'm getting information from the multiple frequencies "simultaneously," that improves my detecting.

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Explorer SE Pro
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

Re: " Multi-IQ copes with saltwater and beach conditions ALMOST as well as BBS/FBS, however BBS/FBS still have an advantage for finding high conductive silver coins in all conditions."
Posted by: Charles (Upstate NY)
Date: October 28, 2017 09:20AM
Simultaneous multi frequency...since even 1 of the 2 fundamental square wave frequencies FBS transmits ALSO transmits an infinite number of odd order harmonic frequencies 2nd, 3rd, 4th, order etc. a claim of simultaneous multi frequency transmission is technically correct.

avatar
Re: " Multi-IQ copes with saltwater and beach conditions ALMOST as well as BBS/FBS, however BBS/FBS still have an advantage for finding high conductive silver coins in all conditions."
Posted by: Jackpine Savage
Date: October 29, 2017 08:45PM
Quote
sgoss66
Rich --

I agree with almost everything you wrote, but -- and I may have missed it -- but I didn't see where Mr. Moreland said the two frequencies were not "simultaneous..."

I guess maybe, there is some ambiguity regarding the word "simultaneous." By "simultaneous," what I personally take it to mean is that you don't have to "switch over" to a different setting or coil to run another frequency. A machine where you have to switch things to utilize other frequencies is, to me, a single-frequency machine -- just one that is capable of running at more than one frequency. Meanwhile, a machine that can run more than one frequency at one time -- i.e. without flipping a switch or changing out a coil -- is a multi-frequency machine. That's how I define it, and from that perspective, I think everyone would agree that FBS is "simultaneous multifrequency."

Now, whether the FBS coil transmits two pulses of two different frequencies at exactly precisely the same time -- who knows. But, either way, if the machine is taking information from both transmissions, and gleaning relevant information from both frequencies, or even "combining" them through software or algorithms, or whatever, to me that's still "simultaneous." In other words, the output to the user (tones, ID, etc.) is originating from data gleaned from two different frequencies being used by the detector "at the same time."

I think "simultaneous" is verbiage that is being added to try and further clarify the differences between different types of machines. In other words, some might call the Deus a "multi-frequency machine," but it's obviously not the same "multifrequency" as a V3i or an E-Trac. One runs one frequency until you swap out coils or flip a switch or whatever, and the other operates using more than one frequency "at once" -- and thus the additional word "simultaneous" is needed to differentiate between a machine like a Deus and a machine like an E-Trac.

I guess I'm just not sure why you said "not simultaneous."

Steve

If you take this quote from the ML Treasure blog on its face and they (ML) know the definition of concurrently then the question "should" be answered... It is not FBS but true simultaneous transmission and processing of more than one frequency.

Quote. "When Minelab use the term “multi-frequency” we mean “simultaneous” – i.e. more than one frequency is transmitted, received AND processed concurrently." end quote

If they didn't add concurrently and only used simultaneous in parenthesis that would leave the door open for speculation, but adding concurrently to the sentence would leave them open to ridicule if it turned out it was a train of frequencies rather then simultaneous.

So then according to ML "multi-frequency" has two definitions, one for BBS/FBS and another for Multi-Eq. Either that or it's just marketing speak. LOL

Tom



Save the Concentrics


Minelab Advantage, G2, Omega 8500, X-Terra 705, F75 DST and a Fisher ID Edge

Re: " Multi-IQ copes with saltwater and beach conditions ALMOST as well as BBS/FBS, however BBS/FBS still have an advantage for finding high conductive silver coins in all conditions."
Posted by: Charles (Upstate NY)
Date: October 29, 2017 09:07PM
Quote
Jackpine Savage
Quote
sgoss66
Rich --

I agree with almost everything you wrote, but -- and I may have missed it -- but I didn't see where Mr. Moreland said the two frequencies were not "simultaneous..."

I guess maybe, there is some ambiguity regarding the word "simultaneous." By "simultaneous," what I personally take it to mean is that you don't have to "switch over" to a different setting or coil to run another frequency. A machine where you have to switch things to utilize other frequencies is, to me, a single-frequency machine -- just one that is capable of running at more than one frequency. Meanwhile, a machine that can run more than one frequency at one time -- i.e. without flipping a switch or changing out a coil -- is a multi-frequency machine. That's how I define it, and from that perspective, I think everyone would agree that FBS is "simultaneous multifrequency."

Now, whether the FBS coil transmits two pulses of two different frequencies at exactly precisely the same time -- who knows. But, either way, if the machine is taking information from both transmissions, and gleaning relevant information from both frequencies, or even "combining" them through software or algorithms, or whatever, to me that's still "simultaneous." In other words, the output to the user (tones, ID, etc.) is originating from data gleaned from two different frequencies being used by the detector "at the same time."

I think "simultaneous" is verbiage that is being added to try and further clarify the differences between different types of machines. In other words, some might call the Deus a "multi-frequency machine," but it's obviously not the same "multifrequency" as a V3i or an E-Trac. One runs one frequency until you swap out coils or flip a switch or whatever, and the other operates using more than one frequency "at once" -- and thus the additional word "simultaneous" is needed to differentiate between a machine like a Deus and a machine like an E-Trac.

I guess I'm just not sure why you said "not simultaneous."

Steve

If you take this quote from the ML Treasure blog on its face and they (ML) know the definition of concurrently then the question "should" be answered... It is not FBS but true simultaneous transmission and processing of more than one frequency.

Quote. "When Minelab use the term “multi-frequency” we mean “simultaneous” – i.e. more than one frequency is transmitted, received AND processed concurrently." end quote

If they didn't add concurrently and only used simultaneous in parenthesis that would leave the door open for speculation, but adding concurrently to the sentence would leave them open to ridicule if it turned out it was a train of frequencies rather then simultaneous.

So then according to ML "multi-frequency" has two definitions, one for BBS/FBS and another for Multi-Eq. Either that or it's just marketing speak. LOL

Tom

Even if you only transmit 1 fundamental square wave, you also transmit an infinite number of odd order harmonic frequencies concurrently.

avatar
Re: " Multi-IQ copes with saltwater and beach conditions ALMOST as well as BBS/FBS, however BBS/FBS still have an advantage for finding high conductive silver coins in all conditions."
Posted by: Jackpine Savage
Date: October 30, 2017 03:47AM
Yes, but the claim is " transmitted, received AND processed concurrently"

True statement or fiction?

Tom



Save the Concentrics


Minelab Advantage, G2, Omega 8500, X-Terra 705, F75 DST and a Fisher ID Edge

Re: " Multi-IQ copes with saltwater and beach conditions ALMOST as well as BBS/FBS, however BBS/FBS still have an advantage for finding high conductive silver coins in all conditions."
Posted by: Charles (Upstate NY)
Date: October 30, 2017 08:22AM
Quote
Jackpine Savage
Yes, but the claim is " transmitted, received AND processed concurrently"

True statement or fiction?

Tom

Yes, yes, and yes.

avatar
Re: " Multi-IQ copes with saltwater and beach conditions ALMOST as well as BBS/FBS, however BBS/FBS still have an advantage for finding high conductive silver coins in all conditions."
Posted by: Jackpine Savage
Date: October 30, 2017 11:01AM
Very doubtful ML are processing the harmonics. Irregardless, for my neutral to mild ground conditions I'm simply looking for something that will beat the 705 and F75. BBS/FBS doesn't enter into the equation for my conditions. I believe the Equinox is THE answer

Tom



Save the Concentrics


Minelab Advantage, G2, Omega 8500, X-Terra 705, F75 DST and a Fisher ID Edge



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2017 11:11AM by Jackpine Savage.

Re: " Multi-IQ copes with saltwater and beach conditions ALMOST as well as BBS/FBS, however BBS/FBS still have an advantage for finding high conductive silver coins in all conditions."
Posted by: Rich (Utah)
Date: October 30, 2017 11:41AM
Quote
Jackpine Savage
Very doubtful ML are processing the harmonics. Irregardless, for my neutral to mild ground conditions I'm simply looking for something that will beat the 705 and F75. BBS/FBS doesn't enter into the equation for my conditions. I believe the Equinox is THE answer

Tom


From Minelab’s statement you quoted it does appear that the MultiIQ technology is going to be very different from its FBS and BBS relatives.



Rich



enjoying the vistas and horizons of the Old West.

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