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your choice of vocabulary
Posted by: Tom_in_CA
Date: May 24, 2017 07:11PM
Quote
asiandigger
.... a shovel to dig up parks and school....

Why (oh why oh why) do you use that vernacular to describe md'ing (and the evil process of extraction) ? Let's be totally honest here asian-digger: What is the connotation/implication of that ?? HOLES. Of course. Ok, do you leave holes ? If so, whomever is leaving holes needs to return to recovery-101 class.

Because a person can do JUST as much damage ("digging up") with a screwdriver than he can with a shovel or lesche or whatever. In fact, I would argue that the larger digger (lesche or shovel) does LESS damage. Because you can cut nice and evenly, while retaining the maximum root ball in place so the divot remains intact to re-grow.

So let's be brutally honest here: What was the real intent of your question ? IMAGE. Because you and I know we'll leave no trace right ? Fine then: go at low traffic times and avoid such lookie-lous. It's gotten to where I do most of my turf-hunting at nights nowadays. So peaceful. So serene.

More under George's post below.

I don't buy it.
Posted by: Tom_in_CA
Date: May 24, 2017 07:22PM
Quote
GeorgeinSC
.... informed me that I was breaking the law by "Digging" in any of the city parks. ....

I got news for ya: You are "breaking the law" in ANY city park by "digging" (yup, even the ones where no one ever "cared less"). It will fall under "deface" , "alter", "molest", "dig", etc.... But all such statutes INHERENTLY refer to the end result (ie.: deface versus defacED , etc....) I would even go so far as to argue dig vs dug. Since they too are merely English present tense vs past tense. It's just that we don't say "digged". And instead say "dug".

But in any case, if such verbiage that he says is "breaking the law" applies automatically to md'ing , then we can all just sit at home and take up needle point. Yup, even in places where you can md till you're blue in the face. I guarantee you they have something similar.

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GeorgeinSC
.... due to people "Digging up their soccer fields with SHOVELS....

I say BS. Sure, they can SAY it's "due to" people who showed up with shovels. Or people who left holes etc.... But I'll bet you dollars to donuts no one can ever cite a case of holes/marks left. Here's what I mean: Be honest: What is the immediate knee-jerk connotation/image when a non-md'r is faced with the scene of a man swinging a metal detector ? HOLES, OF COURSE. So the passing busy-body sees a man detecting and thinks "aha ! He's gonna leave holes!". So he starts booting other people (like happened to you). And guess what he's going to say ? "No, because of holes" (or shovels or whatever). Does that mean he ever saw any holes ?? NO! It's just his/their mental perception when tasked with thinking of the subject-matter. WHETHER OR NOT they ever saw "holes" or a true-full-blue-shovel . In their mind's eyes , a lesche or screwdriver could be a "shovel".

Because think of it George: When that guy was kicking you out, do you *really* think he was going to say "I'm just feeling in a bad mood today, so I'm going to kick you out" ? No. Of course not. They will ALWAYS allude to "holes" as their "go-to" reason. And you are left muttering under your breath: "Durned those guys that must've left holes". But as you can see, it's often just the go-to reason, JUST because they simply saw a dude md'ing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2017 07:23PM by Tom_in_CA.

Re: Shovels at Parks or School
Posted by: Listener
Date: May 24, 2017 07:23PM
I was at a park Monday morning and noticed a guy that was hacking away at the ground. I spotted a detector on the ground and stopped my detecting and went over to check this out. The guy had an older Bounty Hunter and a claw hammer and was hacking away trying to find the metal object he had detected. I said Man don't ruin it for the rest of us, for God's sake go get yourself a trowel like mine and dig a plug. He said he was putting it back. I repeated what I said and told him he just killed a good square foot of grass. He headed off towards the parking area and I detected a while longer and left. I have become friends with a lot of the park staff and always use only a screwdriver and a 6" steel Garrett digger. They have never objected or shown any indifference towards my hunting there.

Conclusion
Posted by: Tom_in_CA
Date: May 24, 2017 07:28PM
So George, to me, the lesson in such cases as this (*if* there is not specific true "no md'ing" rule), is:

A) give lip service to the one-lone-griper

B) come back later when said-person is not around.

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Re: Shovels at Parks or School
Posted by: MarkCZ
Date: May 24, 2017 09:41PM
True! there are some people who can make as much of a mess with a hand digger as some with a shovel. But, the real problem with the shovel is on lookers see it as a BIGGER deal and thus it can draw extra unwanted attention to the hobby when there used in public settings like parks.

Mark



Avatar, Me and my two brothers from left to right!

WV62 - MarkCZ - Still Looking 52

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Re: Shovels at Parks or School
Posted by: amberjack
Date: May 24, 2017 10:58PM
we go over and over this old chestnut and we are all still out there detecting..

had someone approach me one day saying you cant dig holes here i said what's your definition of a hole obviously that question struck a nerve and i was then attacked with a barrage of outrageous accusations none of which were or are true..

my point is nothing i say or do is going to change someone's mind who has it made up, except now i will not accept that behaviour ever again..

another example a park 2 soccer fields never been detected in a nice quite spot talked with the guy who was in the same game as me garbage removal except he was the grounds keeper or what ever one wants to call them neither of us own the park and neither of us don't not own the park, he was very happy to see me spend every day except game day, spending 4 hrs a day cleaning out the park and it took me 4 months to get 95% out of there 1000's of tabs coins rings you name it it was in there. my point is if you go to that park today and try to find evidence of me doing what i did there is NONE and i did a community service.

the only crime committed would be in the eyes of someone who (doesn't like what i am doing) and as stated above timing is key and also understanding that 99% of people don't care less what i am doing its the 1% who see a target that are to be avoided like the plague, i turn my back and walk away now, if they persist i do quote civil harassment laws and they will be charged after all is not my personal safety above all else the most important or is someone taking out their bad day on me ok??

as i said before i am not responsible for anyone else's happiness, what i am responsible for is taking care of myself..

AJ

Re: your choice of vocabulary
Posted by: RLOH
Date: May 25, 2017 06:13AM
Tom, as an experienced detectorist(both of us), you know that a shovel can cause less damage than a smaller digging tool. That is find and dandy among people in the know. The problem with "in the know" is who is in the know? The authorities are generally not "in the know". Unfortunately, the authorities are the people who call the shots and can ban all digging. With that said, please do not ask for trouble by showing up at any park, school, or fairgrounds with a shovel. Places to detect are hard to come by for me.

Re: Conclusion
Posted by: GeorgeinSC
Date: May 25, 2017 06:47AM
Since I checked to see if the law had been passed (It Had) I decided that I would stay out of sight and not hit that park where there were city employees. I went to other parks. Yes I was breaking the law. But out of sight out of mind.



Minelab Sovereign GT With an assortment of coils
Garrett Pro Pointer
Leche digging tool
Minelab Excalibur II
T-Rex 9.5 wet sand scoop

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Re: your choice of vocabulary
Posted by: Elton
Date: May 25, 2017 07:34AM
Quote
RLOH
Tom, as an experienced detectorist(both of us), you know that a shovel can cause less damage than a smaller digging tool. That is find and dandy among people in the know. The problem with "in the know" is who is in the know? The authorities are generally not "in the know". Unfortunately, the authorities are the people who call the shots and can ban all digging. With that said, please do not ask for trouble by showing up at any park, school, or fairgrounds with a shovel. Places to detect are hard to come by for me.

I agree........We are limited enough without causing issues with a shovel. I promise you..A shovel in RLOH's and my area of the world will get you thrown out and even banned.
In the day time, or the night time. In fact most places around us will not allow night time entry... My suggestion is don't detect using anything that makes issues..and don't detect at the wrong times of the day, or night.
If you want to be confrontational show them so to say, and do what you want while detecting..You will lose in our area. End of the story.



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Re: your choice of vocabulary
Posted by: Tom_in_CA
Date: May 25, 2017 09:58AM
Quote
RLOH
Tom, as an experienced detectorist(both of us), you know that a shovel can cause less damage than a smaller digging tool. That is find and dandy among people in the know. The problem with "in the know" is who is in the know? The authorities are generally not "in the know". Unfortunately, the authorities are the people who call the shots and can ban all digging. With that said, please do not ask for trouble by showing up at any park, school, or fairgrounds with a shovel. Places to detect are hard to come by for me.

Yes. I agreed that it's all an "image" thing. Not a reality thing. I was just taking issue with the phrase of "digging up". While it's true we must "dig", yet .... the immediate connotation of that (like if this is bandied around at city hall in conjunction with someone inquiring about md'ing their parks) is .... holes. Even though, yes, you and I will leave no holes.

So when a question like this comes up on the forums: "Gee is it ok for us to go digging up the park?", I cringe. Sure we'll dig, but let's not let that characterization of our hobby, or choice of words be used outside our own ranks. To anyone outside the hobby it is an immediate connotation of "geeks leaving holes". :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2017 09:59AM by Tom_in_CA.

clarify please
Posted by: Tom_in_CA
Date: May 25, 2017 10:09AM
Quote
GeorgeinSC
Since I checked to see if the law had been passed (It Had)....

What "law" are you referring to ? A law that says "no digging" ? Or a law that says "no md'ing" ?

If you're referring to a law that says "no digging", then that has always been there, in some form or fashion. ("alter", "deface", "vandalize", "molest" , "cut", "move", etc....) Yes I agree that if they come along and add the SPECIFIC word "dig" (especially if they claim that was done in direct conjunction/reaction to md'rs), then that becomes more problematic. But I'm just saying that , *ultimately*, the prohibition of us digging can come EVEN without their having been the exact word "dig".

As long as it doesn't specifically say "no md'ing", I'm still going. Heck, there's even been md'rs (skittish ones mind you) who feel they can wriggle around these semantics by going out their with a screwdriver and just making a "slit", and "popping/fishing" the coin out. Thus not a "hole" and thus not "digging". But let's be dreadfully honest: This semantics game might pass technical muster, but you know full well that even if the park worker simply SEES an md'r (even if you're just swinging, and not retrieving at all), he's going to think "aha! *dig* and *holes* and still boot you. Then all the semantics are a moot point. You will still loose that debate with them.

So ... solution is: Out of sight is out of mind. The way I figure it, is if 1 person in a town of 100,000 "has an issue", I can beat my brains out trying to convert him to my semantics/definitions. Or .... I can simply avoid that one singular person. We had to do this at one city near us, where md'ing wasn't prohibited. But a single park worker in a single city would boot md'rs. Rather than figure "all the parks are off-limits" or "rush to city hall to seek clarification", several of us just made note of which days he was on-staff at that park. Then simply don't go on those days. Presto. Problem solved. Why swat hornet's nests ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2017 10:10AM by Tom_in_CA.

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Re: Shovels at Parks or School
Posted by: amberjack
Date: May 25, 2017 10:41AM
see all the part with no green bits I can swing a shovel in it all, all day long :clapping:

time is coming faster with each passing day when those who detect parks is gone the way of the dodo mostly because there's not much left and the greenies are taking over the cities but they wont go outback cause they don't like dirt :lmfao:

so until then I agree stay away from the watermelons all green on the outside and red in the middle...don't let their exterior baffle you !!

AJ




Re: clarify please
Posted by: GeorgeinSC
Date: May 25, 2017 02:36PM
The law in question was written to prohibit any excavation of dirt, sod, or other items in any city park. It did not prohibit metal detecting and the grounds keeper at that park said he had no problem with me detecting but they could not allow anything below the surface of the ground to be excavated.



Minelab Sovereign GT With an assortment of coils
Garrett Pro Pointer
Leche digging tool
Minelab Excalibur II
T-Rex 9.5 wet sand scoop

Re: clarify please
Posted by: Tom_in_CA
Date: May 26, 2017 10:38AM
Quote
GeorgeinSC
The law in question was written to prohibit any excavation of dirt, sod, or other items in any city park. It did not prohibit metal detecting and the grounds keeper at that park said he had no problem with me detecting but they could not allow anything below the surface of the ground to be excavated.

thanx for clarifying. Realize that that law was no doubt already there in some form or fashion. Even before explicit words like "excavation" or whatever might have been added. All/any park has verbiage to those effects (for someone who cares to gripe about us, anyhow). Eg.: "Alter", "deface", etc... And I do not consider them to mean we can't dig our targets. Because if we leave no trace, then we're within the implied spirit of said laws, IMHO. If we conclude otherwise, then every single park in the USA is off-limits.

Yes a "power-that-be" can certainly come up and alert you or I to a "princely decision". That we're falling afoul of ancillary catch-all verbiage. Heck, they can say you're "bothering earthworms", or "taking and harvesting", etc.... It's never-ending. Therefore, as long as a law doesn't explicitly say "no md'ing", I do not construe other boiler-plate catch-all stuff to apply to us.

As for isolated flukes like you encountered: Nor do I consider them to constitute law from then-on-forward. Sure: You give that one person lip service. And sure, you "give it a rest". But for all you know he's just having a bad-hair day. In my 40 yrs. of this I have had many such "scrams" at various parks that were never a problem before . And have never been a problem since that. We might "give it a rest" and come back at a more opportune time.

Or I might have heard of some friend of mine who 'caught flack' at a certain park of ours. Does that constitute "law" now for me too ? After all, no one in authority has said anything to me ?? So I continue to go, broad daylight for a year, and never hear "boo". So I tell my friend "must've been a fluke", and he too resumes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2017 10:40AM by Tom_in_CA.

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Re: Shovels at Parks or School
Posted by: amberjack
Date: May 26, 2017 10:57AM
to much pontdigifcating now I think :buds: if your still on the right side of the bars after 40 years should be able to see it through to the end from here :clapping:

so to dig or not to dig that is the question :poke:

simple one word answers from now on out :biggrin:


dig..

AJ

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