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I didn't find much this summer
Posted by: Ted S
Date: September 04, 2017 09:10AM
No silver a few clads and a wheatie. But that may change soon! I bought a new 11" Pro coil off e-bay for 142.00. After I put it on my SE I will hunt the same private property that I found those few coins on. Fall is just around the corner and I can't wait to hit the fields with this new coil! Is there any tips that I should be aware off when changing to the new coil? Thanks!! Ted

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Location,location,location........
Posted by: Elton
Date: September 04, 2017 10:11AM
Sure hunt areas you have tried..it's rare we get it all.......That said, look for "new productive" areas too.

Don't be content going to the same old sites........Sometimes we drive right by old coin laden spots thinking Naaaaaaaaaaaaaa nothing could be there.

You may be very surprised.



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Re: I didn't find much this summer
Posted by: Charles (Upstate NY)
Date: September 04, 2017 01:01PM
The SE Pro coil is a legend, it requires no special technique. That said if you are struggling to make finds, SLOW DOWN, overlap your swings half a coil, pick at and around the iron and trash. Don't swing slow, swing speed is important, not too slow, not too fast, but just right about medium speed there's a sweet spot. Throw a dime on the ground, lift your coil about 6 inches until it starts to break up, experiment with slower and faster swings you will see what I mean.

Re: I didn't find much this summer
Posted by: Ted S
Date: September 05, 2017 05:10AM
Thanks Elton! I have notes from the late 70s that I have kept. One spot in particular I didn't find its exact location till just this year. Glad I keep those notes! Thanks for the tips Charles. I know you are a big fan of the Pro coil!!

Re: I didn't find much this summer
Posted by: IDXMonster
Date: September 05, 2017 06:54AM
What Charles said about the "sweet spot" is critical....it HAS to be right. What Elton said about the "location" is critical....it HAS to be right.

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Re: I didn't find much this summer
Posted by: Tony N (Michigan)
Date: September 06, 2017 09:25AM
If you were me and I were you, I'd open up the screen into all metal to hear everything.
Sweep a little slower than normal. If you are hearing a low iron thump thump thump as
you swing and then a higher sound arises out of the low thumps, investigate.
Use the front of the coil to sneak in on the higher signal, moving just an inch left and right sneaking up on it.
Often I have found coins hiding like that.

Re: I didn't find much this summer
Posted by: IDXMonster
Date: September 06, 2017 06:06PM
Hey Tony you know what's kinda funny? The CTX has tone bins,I use 5 bins. These are adjustable so you can put the "copper silver" bin at a high tone and all the others really low so it sounds just like you describe. My coin tone is 1200khz all other targets are 75khz. Of course all of these bins are tone adjustable but I just use two tones...good or not. Work slow,investigate all! That way you can run wide open without hearing all of the various tones...just two. If you know someone with one,try it out. It's a gas!

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Re: I didn't find much this summer
Posted by: Tony N (Michigan)
Date: September 07, 2017 06:11AM
Quote
IDXMonster
Hey Tony you know what's kinda funny? The CTX has tone bins,I use 5 bins. These are adjustable so you can put the "copper silver" bin at a high tone and all the others really low so it sounds just like you describe. My coin tone is 1200khz all other targets are 75khz. Of course all of these bins are tone adjustable but I just use two tones...good or not. Work slow,investigate all! That way you can run wide open without hearing all of the various tones...just two. If you know someone with one,try it out. It's a gas!

Sounds like you have it down to a science. When I disc out iron, I often lose my threshold and sometimes it takes too long for the detector to reset itself. That's another reason I like to hunt in a wide open screen.
If the thumping is driving me crazy, I'll put just a couple slices of disc on the far left of the open screen.

I tried something with the E-trac the other day just for fun. I disced absolutely everything out except a small copper/silver area on the screen. I wanted to see if this caused me to lose depth. Nope. Still hit the coins at 9+ inches in coin garden.

Re: I didn't find much this summer
Posted by: IDXMonster
Date: September 07, 2017 11:10AM
I don't know about a science but it works. Yanked an 1886 Indian this morning. The perception that depth is lost with high disc comes from the possibility of the signal getting skewed at depth from mineralization and it gets disced out! Depth remains unchanged no matter the disc...which is exactly what you saw. Coil size and sensitivity govern actual operational depth.

Re: I didn't find much this summer
Posted by: Ted S
Date: September 08, 2017 11:36AM
The coil showed up today! Had it on in 5 minutes with the wife's help. Can't wait to get some rain. It is too dry out.

Re: I didn't find much this summer
Posted by: Charles (Upstate NY)
Date: September 08, 2017 12:56PM
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IDXMonster
I don't know about a science but it works. Yanked an 1886 Indian this morning. The perception that depth is lost with high disc comes from the possibility of the signal getting skewed at depth from mineralization and it gets disced out! Depth remains unchanged no matter the disc...which is exactly what you saw. Coil size and sensitivity govern actual operational depth.

BINGO!! Discrimination has no effect on depth, where did that even come from?

Power Tip - Go into the menu and switch the Response to Long and test some targets. Its important to understand just how large targets are, they are much larger than you think. The coil is actually getting a hit on the target before the coil is even over the target. (cough beach hunting tip cough) Response set to Normal hacks off part of the signal which is why it seems shorter and more focused to a smaller area. Fast further narrows the "perceived" target separation but its a head fake in software the area of ground polluted by the target signal is pretty large.

Now consider discrimination, your typical rusty nail for example, it pollutes a large area of ground especially when the soil is wet. Lets say an 18 inch circle around the nail, you are trying to sneak in there and get a hit on a silver dime within that 18 inch circle. The issue with discrimination is Explorers love to latch onto rusty nails when discriminated and not let go. They are sticky and gooey like a rubber band. All metal seems to better allow the Explorer to let go of that nail and latch onto a nearby silver dime because it doesn't have to contend with nulls on the discriminated sticky nail.

In dry soil much less of an issue as dry soil shuts iron up. Near surface trash targets also play this game, polluting a large surface area around themselves, an umbrella of trash signal or if discriminated out an umbrella of null.

Nothing wrong with using discrimination, the odds favor running in all metal vs discrimination patterns but, okay don't faint all metal guys but there are targets the Explorer will miss in all metal that hit just fine when iron and trash is discriminated. You will miss targets in all metal, you will miss targets running discrimination, you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. lol

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Re: I didn't find much this summer
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: September 08, 2017 01:21PM
I enjoy reading your stuff, Charles. You do a good job of communicating the intricacies and subtleties of Explorers -- clearly you are a long-time user and "expert" on this platform.

I like your description above of "iron masking" -- the "sticky, gooey, like a rubber band" description that explains how iron in wet ground has a "radius" around it where detectors want to "see the nail" and not any other "good" target that may be lying nearby. Interesting that you feel that an Explorer will tend to "stick to" that rusty nail more, when it set up to be discriminating iron (and thus presenting a threshold null), than it will when running all-metal. Interesting that you feel that in all-metal, the machine is more capable of "letting go" of that "sticky" nail and "latching onto" the good target. I wouldn't have expected that. From a machine's processor perspective, I would have thought that it would take the same amount of time/computing power to send a "blank out the audio" command, when hitting a rusty nail that is discriminated, as it would to send a "make a low-tone grunt" command, on that same nail, when running open screen/all-metal. I guess what you are implying is that it takes a bit more time/processing effort to run the nail through the discrimination circuit, and during that processing time, there's less ability to process and signal on the good target. If that's true -- and I don't doubt you, I just have never tested the theory -- then that would suggest I should be running open screen and Ferrous sounds on my machine, when hunting in iron trash, versus Conductive sounds and some Iron Mask.

I will have to ponder that awhile. Bryce Brown always preached "don't fear the nulls," as good targets have no trouble "sneaking through" the null and sounding off with a high tone. And, along those lines, I have, indeed, dug lots of good targets from within a deep, sustained null, (as he said) where I did hear the hint of a high tone that I was then able to slow down and investigate. BUT, that doesn't mean that I haven't missed several MORE good targets in proximity to iron, that I might NOT have, if I was NOT asking the machine to take the time to discriminate and produce a null on the rusty iron...

Hmm...

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Explorer SE Pro
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

Re: I didn't find much this summer
Posted by: Charles (Upstate NY)
Date: September 08, 2017 04:01PM
Steve seeing is believing and this is one of those things you can prove to yourself pretty easily in the field, here's how...

I discovered the sticky null by accident really. When I was first switching from discrimination to all metal, there was so much iron the low iron tones gave me a wicked headache. I could only stand all metal for an hour or so before my head was pounding. So once I got a good headache going I switch backed to discrimination for the remainder of my hunt.

BUT because I totally sucked at pin pointing and mutilated many a silver coin with my digger when I got a signal running discrimination, I'd switch back to all metal in Iron Mask to pin point the target. Thus I scanned hundreds of coins BOTH with iron rejected and in all metal. For the vast majority of targets all metal gave me a much better signal, better target separation, and much easier to pinpoint. Hence I noticed how nulls seemed large and sticky.

Which makes perfect sense. In all metal the Explorer is free to give you all tones for all targets simultaneously, iron tones, soil mineralization, and silver all mixed into the same melody. But if you have iron notched out then its all or nothing right. If the Explorer decides null then you get nothing and won't hear any nearby silver mixed with iron that you might hear in all metal.

After I transitioned fully to all metal, for a period of time I would switch back to my discrimination pattern in Smartfind and rescan the target, I was shocked how often I could not get a hit on the coin at all with iron notched out. This is why I say the odds favor all metal. But there were instances where the opposite was true, a signal I got running discrimination would vanish in all metal. It was rare but happened often enough that I thought okay, all metal isn't 100%. The most frequent exception to the rule oddly enough was rusty bottle caps, if notched out the machine would give you hints that a coin was hiding under the bottle cap. But if you switched to all metal the machine latched onto the rusty bottle cap hard and there was no hint of a coin, textbook bottle cap. For this reason I frequently hunt in Smartfind with a wide open screen except for just rusty bottle caps notched out.

I don't know if I agree with the "don't fear a null" advice but it may be a matter of settings. If I were going to set the machine up for don't fear the null hunting I'd probably turn deep off and fast on to try to get the best target separation I could. I'd be giving up the deepest targets most likely but maybe that doesn't matter at a given site. Where's Tim, hey Tim what I just said for our area and part of why I just purchased a Deus.

The most extreme example of all metal tones are targets so closely located, sometimes fused together, the Explorer merges the metals together and you get an oddball tone and ID in no mans land. The most ultra rare signal of all...the All Metal Null I'll leave you to ponder that one. lol

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Re: I didn't find much this summer
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: September 08, 2017 04:52PM
Thanks for the additional, detailed info, Charles. I have some experimenting to do...

I guess it goes without saying that when you are hunting open screen/all metal, you are doing so with Ferrous sounds?

(And why, on earth, would there ever be an all-metal null?! The machine can't figure out an ID, so it just "cries uncle" and gives you a null?!)

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Explorer SE Pro
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

Re: I didn't find much this summer
Posted by: Charles (Upstate NY)
Date: September 08, 2017 05:23PM
Yes ferrous tones and my thoughts exactly, all metal null what the hell?? Target was 2 silver quarters :surprised:

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