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Battery help
Posted by: Rob (IL)
Date: May 05, 2012 02:34PM
Im planning on starting a project to make a light weight Minelab SE. I want to lighten the battery pack. So how about some advice from guys who know about LI ion batteries.
Here is a pack I found. 5.3 oz
http://www.all-battery.com/li-ion18650111v2200mahrechargeablebatterypackwithpcbprotection.aspx
What about this charger?
http://www.all-battery.com/universalsmartchargerfor3.7-14.8vbatterypack-01281.aspx



"Everyone has an opinion, but mine is free":devil:
"You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment..."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2012 02:34PM by Rob (IL).

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Re: Battery help
Posted by: Critterhunter
Date: May 05, 2012 03:41PM
Think 3 cell lipo. I run one in my GT and it's lighter than ANY battery technology on the market. Only problem is it doesn't come in standard AA batteries so I had to wire a small plug inside my GT AA holder, but I can still move that out of the way to run regular AAs if I ever wanted to do that again. Lipos charge in under 1 under and that's perfectly healthy for them unlike nimhs or nicads that that fast is pushing them. Even a lower capacity lipo will have longer run times than a higher capacity nimh or nicad due to lipos holding the voltage high until the very end of the discharge. They also don't self discharge on the shelf like nimhs/nicads, so a year later it's still ready for action. They require special chargers and you should make sure your low battery alarm on your detector kicks in above 9V, because a lipo should never be drained below 3V per cell or 9V total for a 3 cell series pack.



Think I'm finally home after a lot of years searching for my particular needs. Custom 1.5 lb lighter :minelab:Sovereign GT (easy to do by just "building" lighter shaft) & SEF 12x10 as everyday coil. 8" Tornado (actually 7.25") as super heavy trash coil (Very deep & separates better than typical 8/9" true size coils). 13" Ultimate for large fields/beaches on certain days I want to grid faster than even the 12x10's nice improvement over stock for that. Stock 10" Tornado stays on water rig (stock shaft). :garrett: ProPointer. Owned 15x12 & SunRay S-5 (5.5") at one time. Loaned a prior 13" Ultimate & SunRay S-12 (12.5").

Some Oldest Silver- 1835 Bust Dime, 1842 "O" Seated Dime, 1855 Seated Quarter, 1858 3 Cent Piece, 1891 Seated Dime, & another Seated Quarter too damaged to read date. Highest Value- 3 Cent Piece, Seated Quarter, & now 1921 F-12 Standing Liberty. Oldest Coin? Got to give large cents a good look & see. 2013 so far- 1 Seated Quarter, 1 Barber Quarter, 1 Standing Liberty, 2 Washingtons, 1 Barber Dime, 9 Mercs, 3 Rosies. 1 War Nickel. 19 silvers in total, & 1 1872 key date Indian, 2 Bufallos, 1 man's 14K gold medium sized ring & 1 gold chain, with possibility of few 8"+ deep mystery coins being Indians after cleaning.

What matters in life is the journey and not the desitination. How you handle that journey determines if you were a success, not so much what you achieved if and when you finally get there, especially if you made it by stepping on people along the way...


In loving memory of my long haired (wooly) husky Sky. She taught me just how beautiful and pure a soul can be, human or not...


Re: Battery help
Posted by: TerraDigger
Date: May 05, 2012 05:32PM
"They also don't self discharge on the shelf like nimhs/nicads, so a year later it's still ready for action."

Critter,

Actually, LiPO batteries do self discharge. At a rate of approximately 2-5% a month depending on mfg. The newer generation low self discharge NiMH batteries do not suffer from excessive self-discharge. Example, my 9.6v Powerex NiMH 230mAH high capacity batteries will retain 85% of charge after 1 yr's storage. Sanyo LSD NiMH also have about same self-discharge rate. These Powerex NiMH will fast charge in 2 hours without detrimental side effects when charged by the Powerex charger made for these types of batteries. Just like LiPO batteries that need to use a specific charger.

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Re: Battery help
Posted by: Rob (IL)
Date: May 05, 2012 06:22PM
So would this combo (charger and pack) be a good choice. Weight is the major factor when working with an overweight, poorly balanced detector. My aim is lower weight and better balance using the usual Whites rods for the conversion.



"Everyone has an opinion, but mine is free":devil:
"You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment..."

Re: Battery help
Posted by: pecor
Date: May 05, 2012 06:29PM
Hello Guys, Li-fe battery's are alot safer, Use them if you can. Here is a site I use for my RC plane battery's {Just make sure to us the USA warehouse} for fast shipping. Jay http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__86__85__LiPo_LiFe_NiMH_Battery-Li_Poly_All_brands_.html

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Re: Battery help
Posted by: Larry (IL)
Date: May 05, 2012 07:11PM
If you are going to use White's rods, you might as well use an empty White's case with the battery terminals still intact and you could then use a White's battery holder for the Li Ion's like they did for the AW-2200 pack. You could silkscreen on the side of the case................... White'sLab ........ :clapping:



Bells and whistles are nice, but nothing will substitute for the basic understanding of the hobby.

:minelab: CTX 3030, :whites: V3i, :whites: M6 W/Bigfoot coil, :tesoro: Cibola/modified

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Re: Battery help
Posted by: Rob (IL)
Date: May 05, 2012 08:54PM
Exactly. The pack I showed should fit.



"Everyone has an opinion, but mine is free":devil:
"You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment..."

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Re: Battery help
Posted by: Critterhunter
Date: May 06, 2012 03:07PM
Quote
TerraDigger
"They also don't self discharge on the shelf like nimhs/nicads, so a year later it's still ready for action."

Critter,

Actually, LiPO batteries do self discharge. At a rate of approximately 2-5% a month depending on mfg. The newer generation low self discharge NiMH batteries do not suffer from excessive self-discharge. Example, my 9.6v Powerex NiMH 230mAH high capacity batteries will retain 85% of charge after 1 yr's storage. Sanyo LSD NiMH also have about same self-discharge rate. These Powerex NiMH will fast charge in 2 hours without detrimental side effects when charged by the Powerex charger made for these types of batteries. Just like LiPO batteries that need to use a specific charger.

I've never read anywhere that Lipos self discharge. If they did that would be a problem for factories who make and store them because if a lipo cell drops below 3V it's probably going to ruin it. I put my lipos to sleep at a sleep storage voltage level (my charger does it automatically) when storing them for months inside my refrigerator (it's healthier for them). In fact, I just pulled out some plane RC lipos that I had sleeping for almost two years and checked the voltage on them and it's exactly what they were charged or drained to by my charger when I first put them to sleep.



Think I'm finally home after a lot of years searching for my particular needs. Custom 1.5 lb lighter :minelab:Sovereign GT (easy to do by just "building" lighter shaft) & SEF 12x10 as everyday coil. 8" Tornado (actually 7.25") as super heavy trash coil (Very deep & separates better than typical 8/9" true size coils). 13" Ultimate for large fields/beaches on certain days I want to grid faster than even the 12x10's nice improvement over stock for that. Stock 10" Tornado stays on water rig (stock shaft). :garrett: ProPointer. Owned 15x12 & SunRay S-5 (5.5") at one time. Loaned a prior 13" Ultimate & SunRay S-12 (12.5").

Some Oldest Silver- 1835 Bust Dime, 1842 "O" Seated Dime, 1855 Seated Quarter, 1858 3 Cent Piece, 1891 Seated Dime, & another Seated Quarter too damaged to read date. Highest Value- 3 Cent Piece, Seated Quarter, & now 1921 F-12 Standing Liberty. Oldest Coin? Got to give large cents a good look & see. 2013 so far- 1 Seated Quarter, 1 Barber Quarter, 1 Standing Liberty, 2 Washingtons, 1 Barber Dime, 9 Mercs, 3 Rosies. 1 War Nickel. 19 silvers in total, & 1 1872 key date Indian, 2 Bufallos, 1 man's 14K gold medium sized ring & 1 gold chain, with possibility of few 8"+ deep mystery coins being Indians after cleaning.

What matters in life is the journey and not the desitination. How you handle that journey determines if you were a success, not so much what you achieved if and when you finally get there, especially if you made it by stepping on people along the way...


In loving memory of my long haired (wooly) husky Sky. She taught me just how beautiful and pure a soul can be, human or not...


Re: Battery help
Posted by: TerraDigger
Date: May 06, 2012 10:39PM
Try this link. It's a LiPO battery manufacturer's webpage. I tend to give alot of creedence to what a mfg state's about a product they manufacture. There a numerous sites one can go to that state LiPO batteries do self discharge.

http://www.powerstream.com/li-pol.htm

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Re: Battery help
Posted by: Critterhunter
Date: May 07, 2012 10:24AM
Regardless of if that's true or not, you're talking miniscule amounts of discharge and that's why it's not even considered an issue or talked about in the RC crowd. Never heard anybody voice any kinds of concerns about storage discharge on lipos, while it's often discussed about nimhs. At that supposed discharge rate that would take years to even show in terms of less run time when pulling it off the shelf at 2 to 5% discharge. If my math is right (just woke up and am a bit fuzzy) at 5% that's roughly two years to reach 100% discharge. Don't see how that's possible, because at RC stores I frequent lipos often sit for quite a while on the shelf before they are sold, and a lipo charger will refuse to charge them if the cell voltage has dropped below 3V per cell as that's a built in safety feature on just about all lipo chargers. I know, because I've lost a few electric RC planes in trees that took me a few days to get down. Since the RX was still active they ran the voltage down below 3V per cell, so I had to force feed them via a nimh mode for a few minutes until they voltage was high enough for the lipo charging program to recognize and allow. Lipo technology has got better in terms of tolerance for abuse like this and often can survive a below 3V cell discharge if treated gently to bring it back to life.

As said, I just checked my RC packs that have been resting at the proper sleep voltage for about two years and they are the exact same voltage they were when I put them in my refrigerator. Long term lipo storage is best done in a refrigerator as it slows the aging process, and storing them at the proper sleep voltage keeps them from losing capacity over time as well.

From what I've read on nimhs that are supposed to have long term storage ability they often have less cycle life than normal nimhs and do not hold their charge as well as advertised. I wager a lipo will hold that capacity much longer due to just the share fact about how nimhs cells are constructed versus lipo technology. Also, if you read the specs on the cycle life of nimhs that are supposed to have high C rate capacity for fast charging every one I've ever checked had listed roughly half the cycle life of a normal nimh. In other words, they aren't doing any better at holding up to those vigors as any other good quality nimh will. Regular nimh cells can withstand high charge rates of 1C or more without any real issues, but over time it will in fact shorten their cycle life and lower their capacity. In short, "high charge able" nimhs aren't handling these issues any better than a regular nimh from what I've read by those in the RC crowd who make it a passion to test these sorts of things. Fast charge ability is more of a marketing gimmick then any actual advancements in nimh technology for the most part.

Another bonus about lipos is they are lighter than anything on the market in terms of weight, and that includes lithium ion cells as those are often housed in metal jackets just like a normal cell. That's just one of the reasons why lipos are the most popular battery used in the RC electric plane crowd. Another is that nimhs steadily drop their voltage during discharge, while lipos hold their voltage much higher until the very end of the cycle, providing high prop thrust for the entire plane flight, or providing other devices with more power during the discharge cycle that aren't governed via a voltage regulator. A 1C charge rate (1 hour on a dead pack) for lipos is perfectly healthy and normal, while nimhs and nicads are being pushed somewhat at that high of C and can generate a lot of heat which slowly destroys the capacity of the cells.



Think I'm finally home after a lot of years searching for my particular needs. Custom 1.5 lb lighter :minelab:Sovereign GT (easy to do by just "building" lighter shaft) & SEF 12x10 as everyday coil. 8" Tornado (actually 7.25") as super heavy trash coil (Very deep & separates better than typical 8/9" true size coils). 13" Ultimate for large fields/beaches on certain days I want to grid faster than even the 12x10's nice improvement over stock for that. Stock 10" Tornado stays on water rig (stock shaft). :garrett: ProPointer. Owned 15x12 & SunRay S-5 (5.5") at one time. Loaned a prior 13" Ultimate & SunRay S-12 (12.5").

Some Oldest Silver- 1835 Bust Dime, 1842 "O" Seated Dime, 1855 Seated Quarter, 1858 3 Cent Piece, 1891 Seated Dime, & another Seated Quarter too damaged to read date. Highest Value- 3 Cent Piece, Seated Quarter, & now 1921 F-12 Standing Liberty. Oldest Coin? Got to give large cents a good look & see. 2013 so far- 1 Seated Quarter, 1 Barber Quarter, 1 Standing Liberty, 2 Washingtons, 1 Barber Dime, 9 Mercs, 3 Rosies. 1 War Nickel. 19 silvers in total, & 1 1872 key date Indian, 2 Bufallos, 1 man's 14K gold medium sized ring & 1 gold chain, with possibility of few 8"+ deep mystery coins being Indians after cleaning.

What matters in life is the journey and not the desitination. How you handle that journey determines if you were a success, not so much what you achieved if and when you finally get there, especially if you made it by stepping on people along the way...


In loving memory of my long haired (wooly) husky Sky. She taught me just how beautiful and pure a soul can be, human or not...




Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2012 10:33AM by Critterhunter.

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Re: Battery help
Posted by: stasys
Date: May 10, 2012 07:36AM
Battery and charger is OK dont worry , but personally I would buy larger capacity batteries. I use heavy 12V led in the bag.

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