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The only way to be sure is to dig
Posted by: therover
Date: January 27, 2012 09:18PM
TVR,


In all the years I have used my CZ's, I have never found a foolproof way to determine if a deep, fringe target giving off a low tone is iron or a good deep target without digging. One way to try to get some more info is to pin point and see if the target footprint is small or wide, or even if it goes away.

One good thing about the beach is, you can take a nice scoop of sand out of the way and get the coil into the hole to get closer to the target. That way, a more positive ID may be heard.

Deep on the fringe targets in the wet sand that repeat as low tone CAN be gold. Shoot, I dug a small 14K gold ring with a small diamond in it, in the wet sand with my DFX and it was only 5 inches down and gave off mostly low tone, negative ID numbers but there was a touch of mid tone positive number ID every 4th or 5th swing so I decided to dig knowing small gold can and will ID as iron in the wet sand and glad I did.

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Re: CZ21 test, compare with EZ
Posted by: OldBeechnut
Date: January 28, 2012 12:06AM
TVR, This excal I get a better responce if I swing a little faster, but only in the PP mode...(Some will dispute this). In discriminate you have to go about half that speed to obtain and even then may have to clear some sand away to get a tone.. What puzzled me was it had no problem at 14 on the lg gold, At 15 inchs there was only a disruption in the threshold. So does the detection field end that abruptly.

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When I heard "solid low tone" with the CZ I could feel my heart up in my throat thinking about all the solid low tones I did not examine further
Bob also noted the differene in a shallow low and a deep low tone, something that will help on those lack of targets beach's in the bay. I had bought a Infinium and a Dual Field for these places where Bob Trivillian use to hunt, but now I wondering if the CZ20 10 inch I bought from therover will be the best for these locations.

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Re: The only way to be sure is to dig
Posted by: EZrider
Date: January 28, 2012 05:50AM
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therover
TVR,


In all the years I have used my CZ's, I have never found a foolproof way to determine if a deep, fringe target giving off a low tone is iron or a good deep target without digging. One way to try to get some more info is to pin point and see if the target footprint is small or wide, or even if it goes away.

Super advice from a CZ pro here. During the test i couldn't pinpoint the target. Great ways of knowing deep targets.

One good thing about the beach is, you can take a nice scoop of sand out of the way and get the coil into the hole to get closer to the target. That way, a more positive ID may be heard.

Super often overlooked technique/b]


Deep on the fringe targets in the wet sand that repeat as low tone CAN be gold. Shoot, I dug a small 14K gold ring with a small diamond in it, in the wet sand with my DFX and it was only 5 inches down and gave off mostly low tone, negative ID numbers but there was a touch of mid tone positive number ID every 4th or 5th swing so I decided to dig knowing small gold can and will ID as iron in the wet sand and glad I did.

The great thing is. Were not using PI machines. The fact we can get great depth and still have Disc is huge for me. Were not forced to go into deeper water with less trash



Minelab E-Trac, 6" Excelerator, 12x15 SEF, Garrett Pro Pointer, Fisher CZ-21

My Youtube channel remenning

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Re: CZ21 test, compare with EZ
Posted by: EZrider
Date: January 28, 2012 05:54AM
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OldBeechnut
TVR, This excal I get a better responce if I swing a little faster, but only in the PP mode...(Some will dispute this). In discriminate you have to go about half that speed to obtain and even then may have to clear some sand away to get a tone.. What puzzled me was it had no problem at 14 on the lg gold, At 15 inchs there was only a disruption in the threshold. So does the detection field end that abruptly.

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When I heard "solid low tone" with the CZ I could feel my heart up in my throat thinking about all the solid low tones I did not examine further
Bob also noted the differene in a shallow low and a deep low tone, something that will help on those lack of targets beach's in the bay. I had bought a Infinium and a Dual Field for these places where Bob Trivillian use to hunt, but now I wondering if the CZ20 10 inch I bought from therover will be the best for these locations.

OBN, The DD vs Concentric coils is why. The DD field at the bottom is more square. The Concentric is more cone shape and rounded at the bottom.



Minelab E-Trac, 6" Excelerator, 12x15 SEF, Garrett Pro Pointer, Fisher CZ-21

My Youtube channel remenning

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Excellent point EZ
Posted by: therover
Date: January 28, 2012 08:05AM
"Were not forced to go into deeper water with less trash"

I would say 90% of my beach hunting is in the wet sand and suds. I hardly ever go into the water, and when I do, it's not for long. I envy the guys who hunt in S.C, and Fla. Seems whenever I see videos on them hunting, the water looks like a pond. Seems whether it's high tide or low tide, the water never really gets rough.

Here in NJ that's not the case for the most part. There is always white water and the good ole 2 to 3 waves in the set that can make for a fun waiting out period. Not to mention beaches that have a 4-5 foot drop off after going 3 feet into the water. And when hunting conditions get good with a storm, you can't go into the water unless you want to drown. So having a good discriminating beach unit is a must.

Plus, there are a lot of times where the targets are high and mixed in with the trash so there is no way a hunter can use a PI unit there.

I am heading out in a bit to hit a spot where we found a lot of targets higher up. There were a lot of nickels in these areas mixed in with iron, but we did not find any gold. I am going to try a little experiment and leave the big dogs home and go down with my Gold Bug SE for some easy swinging and see if it can sniff out a gold target. Bringing the DFX with a small coil and will run that in 15Khz mode too. Ya never know.

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Re: CZ21 test, compare with EZ
Posted by: OldBeechnut
Date: January 28, 2012 08:33AM
Thanks EZ, I understand about the shape of the fields on the coils but the excalibur in the PP mode, I had read from CJC books and thought that myself from the way there are disruptions in the threshold on fringe targets it was a diffused field..where discriminate is more of a controled, traditional DD shape. Next trip to the beach I have to put a target out of range (20?) and slowy pull it up and inching up on it with the coil to see if it comes in slowly or suddenly. Looking for yours and Jims video, plus the video on your settings..I have to get in more time on the CZ before retiring, I like the depth and the discrimation abilities. I'm just not sure if the CZ will get the depth as a PI would in the water. Reason, my last bay hunt I was talking to a couple CZ20/21 hunters and they were telling me they would have dug iron just to be digging becasue of the lack of targets. The infinium was singing faint targets the whole time...We have to, some how see if we can do a little shallow water test next trip...I know the excalibur falls on it's face there, losing several inch's.

Re: CZ21 test, compare with EZ
Posted by: tvr
Date: January 28, 2012 05:58PM
Lots of great information from some great detectorists!

With the CZ, if I hear any bounce off low tone with the coil moving slowly over a small target, it is a dig. I may have to start taking a couple inches of sand off the top on some targets to see if they come off low tone.

Will also have to work more speed variation into the Excal hunts and pay attention to what it tells me.
tvr

Re: CZ21 test, compare with EZ
Posted by: synthnut
Date: January 28, 2012 07:43PM
A lot of different detectors have problems IDing targets that are very deep ......The processor will get overwhelmed ....In these cases , the targets will give off a low tone .....The AT Pro will do the same thing when going for a deep target ....You will get a repeatable tone , but it iwll be the WRONG tone when a detector is reaching for DEEP targets .......When taking sand or dirt away enough to get within a distance that the detector can ID better and to it's ability , it will give the ACTUAL tone of the target .....So for example , if you are digging a target that is down over a foot and it gave you a LOW tone to begin with , and you get down a good 8 inches in what you are digging in , and you then get ANOTHER low tone , chances are that your target is iron .... I have done this wth a CZ and also with an AT Pro , and don't doubt the fact that you can also do it with other detectors .....JIm

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Re: CZ21 test, compare with EZ
Posted by: dewcon4414
Date: January 30, 2012 06:05PM
If you guys are going out again soon, someone beg, barrow or steal a PI.

Dew

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Re: Excal with a WOT might be the winner.N/T
Posted by: Mel Parker
Date: January 30, 2012 09:23PM

(This message does not contain any text.)



A.H Pro Backpacker
Fisher 1266X Modified
Fisher F-75 LTD
Garrett AT Pro
Sovereign GT Modified
Sovereign GT water machine
Troy Shadow X5 water machine
Troy Shadow X5
Whites MXT Modified
Whites Dual Field PI
4 Minelab Excals. (3 NYs & 1 Excal 1000)
"Excals" Hunt with them and for them.

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Re: CZ21 test, compare with EZ
Posted by: OldBeechnut
Date: January 30, 2012 10:24PM
Mel thanks for chiming in, I remember some time ago you had asked about including a CZ20 in the test.

I had the WOT with me on the trip..I did not take along for the test because I wanted to see how well the amped excal did,........... Next trip I will take it but it is far from stock. Kick myself in the Butt, Had a bone stock excalibur II there and forgot to include it.

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dew
If you guys are going out again soon, someone beg, barrow or steal a PI.
Several PI's were invited, but things happen and it did not work out...but I got the PI's covered..DF - Eric foster PI - LS




Wonder how a FZ-12 coil would do on a non-underwater CZ.?
Posted by: El
Date: February 01, 2012 12:02PM
Anyone have any reports/opinions on this coil?

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Re: Wonder how a FZ-12 coil would do on a non-underwater CZ.?
Posted by: therover
Date: February 01, 2012 12:36PM
It does very well on the beach and on farm fields. Coverage is a bit better than the 10.5, pin pointing is easier as well, and the depth probably an 1" to 1 1/2" more depending on the conditions.

One thing I did notice is that when I had it on my CZ3D, the ID was off in enhanced mode. Some of the older nickels and a small gold coin I tested on the standard CZ 8 inch coil hit as high tone, but using the FZ12, it hit as mid tone....should have hit as hign tone in enhanced mode.

All in all, unless you can get a really good deal on one ( which at this point a good deal would be about $150-175 since they are selling in the $225 and above range when made available), stick with the 10.5 inch coil.

Re: Wonder how a FZ-12 coil would do on a non-underwater CZ.?
Posted by: synthnut
Date: February 01, 2012 02:10PM
therover ,
That's interesting that you make mention of the ID being off on the Sunray coil .....It seems to me that every Sunray coil that I have ever had , the numbers were ALWAYS off .....My S-12 was off by quite a bit and had to go into the Sov. and adjust from inside the meter before it would give me a 180 on a quarter .....and that was with the outside meter adjustment turned all the way to one side ....Jim

Re: Excal with a WOT might be the winner.
Posted by: erikk
Date: February 05, 2012 06:37AM
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Mel Parker
n/t