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Let's design the world's best beach detector!
Posted by: lytle78
Date: July 21, 2017 02:17PM
About a month ago I posted a thread here about the new French developed Manta Pulse induction technology which First Texas has acquired. Several folks made thoughtful comments about it and seem generally pleased to hear that we can expect the new beach machine in the not so very very distant future from Fisher.

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?26,2374832,2376995#msg-2376995

It occurred to me this morning that First Texas might like to hear OUR ideas about the ideal Beach detector - and hear them during the period in which they are working to turn Alexander Tartare's Manta prototype into a marketable beach detector which introduces truly new Technology. Engineers will design what they think is the best that can be done with the technology available – but marketing are the people who have to go out and sell the product in order to do that they need a really good idea as to what will actually sell. With that information they can tell engineering what they need and engineering can pick and choose from all the possibilities to give it to them. So right now we may have an opportunity to get a major manufacturer to actually tailor their product very directly to do the jobs that we need to be done.

So – given that we're talking about a pulse induction detector – one that can discriminate out iron – what would it take to make the thing perfect for your conditions, your beaches, your targets? What specific features in terms of its design performance user interface and mechanical package would it take to make you feel like you've got the worlds best beach detector?

Right now there are number of good to adequate machines out there – but all of them fall short in the opinion of many on this forum of the ideal. whether it's part of the mechanical package – battery arrangement, coil size, coil interchangeability, headphone, Rod - whatever.

Performance? Or today's machines deep enough or is more depth really need it? Is iron ID/elimination enough detection for salt water beach hunting? What about the controls?

Price - what would you pay for detector which met your needs perfectly - was as robust as the CZ 21 - had the depth of the Excalibur or better - could detect targets, even those undrt nails while frjecting nails, fishooks, etc. - and was sensitive to the tiniest gold jewelry?

Since I have contacted First Texas about the Manta previously – I'm in a position to make sure they see whatever we post here in terms of what we want them to build for us!

If you're up for it please post your ideas on this thread I for one will not criticize even the wackiest of them –



Rick Kempf



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2017 02:18PM by lytle78.

Re: Let's design the world's best beach detector!
Posted by: Sand dog
Date: July 21, 2017 06:27PM
I'd be happy to see a waterproof discriminating machine that can match or beat the TDI pro for depth and beat the ATX on gold chains in saltwater environments. Definitely needs to be lighter than the ATX. Changeable coils with highest quality coil cables and bulletproof strain relief. light as possible but strong build and well balanced. Rechargeable battery. Selectable pulse delay down to 8us . Telescopic straight shaft with a rinse port. Price hmmm... if it was around CTX price + or - a little I'd be fine with that. I'd rather pay a little more for a machine that's build tough than be worried about breaking it. Thanks

John

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Re: Let's design the world's best beach detector!
Posted by: lytle78
Date: July 21, 2017 06:38PM
Great start John, thanks for the thoughtful response. We'll see who else is willing to jump in with solid suggestions.

This way of gathering information to guide design is – I think – called crowdsourcing. Detector companies so far haven't use that approach that I have noticed – maybe we can get them started on a new path.



Rick Kempf

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Re: Let's design the world's best beach detector!
Posted by: sandbandit
Date: July 21, 2017 10:12PM
I second Sand Dog!! A waterproof PI machine like the TDI, has a low conductor discrimination selection, good on small targets (8us range), ruggedized, interchangeable coils, and a long battery life. Asking a lot of any machine, but would be a real winner on the beach.

Richard
San Diego

Re: Let's design the world's best beach detector!
Posted by: iqwozpoom
Date: July 23, 2017 09:17PM
2.5 lbs cz waterproof with interchangeable headphones and coils. F19 recovery speed, three tones high for nickels. I have a cz6a and I believe it is the best beach detector, the only thing that would make it better is lighter, quicker and waterproof! I know that pi's are deeper but my beach has a hundred nails and a dozen chunks of iron for every diggable target!

Re: Let's design the world's best beach detector!
Posted by: rottonr
Date: July 25, 2017 05:21AM
Here is my off the wall want. I hunt mostly public swim beaches and grid the whole beach when I'm there but can't walk a straight line if my life depended on it. So the net result is I know I am missing swinging the coil over some areas and also hitting some spots twice, at least I hope only twice.

I want a built in GPS I can set my first path with, be it the shore line or the swimming rope or even as deep as I can go. And then when i turn around to go parallel with the base line, my head phone will lightly beep in the right ear or left ear telling me i need to correct myself either right or left. Back and forth from the base line with the program recognizing I have turned around and starting a new parallel path.

Same goes for land hunting.

Crazy?

Re: Let's design the world's best beach detector!
Posted by: doc holiday232
Date: July 25, 2017 11:36AM
Quote
rottonr
Here is my off the wall want. I hunt mostly public swim beaches and grid the whole beach when I'm there but can't walk a straight line if my life depended on it. So the net result is I know I am missing swinging the coil over some areas and also hitting some spots twice, at least I hope only twice.

I want a built in GPS I can set my first path with, be it the shore line or the swimming rope or even as deep as I can go. And then when i turn around to go parallel with the base line, my head phone will lightly beep in the right ear or left ear telling me i need to correct myself either right or left. Back and forth from the base line with the program recognizing I have turned around and starting a new parallel path.

Same goes for land hunting.

Crazy?

We old pilots call them VOR's.

Re: Let's design the world's best beach detector!
Posted by: rottonr
Date: July 26, 2017 05:47AM
Quote
doc holiday232
Quote
rottonr
Here is my off the wall want. I hunt mostly public swim beaches and grid the whole beach when I'm there but can't walk a straight line if my life depended on it. So the net result is I know I am missing swinging the coil over some areas and also hitting some spots twice, at least I hope only twice.

I want a built in GPS I can set my first path with, be it the shore line or the swimming rope or even as deep as I can go. And then when i turn around to go parallel with the base line, my head phone will lightly beep in the right ear or left ear telling me i need to correct myself either right or left. Back and forth from the base line with the program recognizing I have turned around and starting a new parallel path.

Same goes for land hunting.

Crazy?

We old pilots call them VOR's.

I had to look that up. :smile: And yes, but of course with GPS i don't think stationary raidio signals needed.

Re: Let's design the world's best beach detector!
Posted by: doc holiday232
Date: July 26, 2017 03:46PM
Quote
rottonr
Quote
doc holiday232
Quote
rottonr
Here is my off the wall want. I hunt mostly public swim beaches and grid the whole beach when I'm there but can't walk a straight line if my life depended on it. So the net result is I know I am missing swinging the coil over some areas and also hitting some spots twice, at least I hope only twice.

I want a built in GPS I can set my first path with, be it the shore line or the swimming rope or even as deep as I can go. And then when i turn around to go parallel with the base line, my head phone will lightly beep in the right ear or left ear telling me i need to correct myself either right or left. Back and forth from the base line with the program recognizing I have turned around and starting a new parallel path.

Same goes for land hunting.

Crazy?

We old pilots call them VOR's.

I had to look that up. :smile: And yes, but of course with GPS i don't think stationary raidio signals needed.


But of course,however, I want my signals Stationary--where would I end up with a Moving signal. LOL Good luck.

Re: Let's design the world's best beach detector!
Posted by: barbecued scallops
Date: July 27, 2017 11:08PM
I'd like the opposite of sensitivity to small targets. I do not care for hunting small chains. Little shreds of aluminum are the most annoying junk targets. Small chains aren't worth the time. I would prefer a detector that is optimized to go very deep on coin and ring sized targets with less sensitivity to small, shallow trash.

The best beach hunter, in my opinion, would have 3 things.

1. Depth like the TDI pro - gets a nickel in the 16-18 inch range in air tests
2. Iron disc, and not just shallow iron. If it can disc deep iron, all the way down to the threshold of detection, that would be amazing.
3. Reduced sensitivity to small, shallow targets.

Do not care for weight (I swing a cz21 on the stock shaft), do not care for ergonomics. If there were a detector that could do the 3 things listed above, I would buy it right now.

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Re: Let's design the world's best beach detector!
Posted by: lytle78
Date: July 28, 2017 08:33AM
Never Bbq'd a Scallop!

Good thoughts - keep them coming. For a PI machine, the pulse delay setting will fix yoir issue, The shorter the delay between pulses, the smallet the detectable target. A perfed beach detector would have a simple choice of pre-programmed setting combunations ehich let someobody just select - "rings and coins" and know that the detector was now maxed out for depth and set to stromgly report round objects.



Rick Kempf

Re: Let's design the world's best beach detector!
Posted by: stephenscool
Date: July 30, 2017 04:47AM
The problem is rick that few people have the imagination or inspiration to come up with new ideas. An old question is... which is more important imagination or knowledge? This is a perfect example.

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Re: Let's design the world's best beach detector!
Posted by: lytle78
Date: July 30, 2017 08:06AM
The knowledge to design better detecting systems is - at least potentially - present in several detector manufacturers' enginerring departments. One of the problems with bringing this knowledge to the users is that ALL of the current companies have a "triangular" decision structure. Management wants to know how they will get back the $$$ that the spend on R&D - Marketing wants to get products which they can sell in quantity and which will best the competitors products and engineering wants to develop ever more advanced technology.

The challange is for Marketing and Engineering to come to an agreement as to what a new machine will actually include in its design and performance.

Lost in all this sometimes is the guy with a job to be done. Whether it's someone hungry for those deep silver coins in an old park, the relic hunter wanting another 6" with ID for his deep site or better separation in trashy ground - an African miner wanting a more rugged and sensitive nugget finder or a beach hunter wanting more sensitivity to noce round rings and coins ---- every ome of these represents a "job to be done".

My challange to all of is in posting this thread was for us to articulate what features we could identify as necessary in order for our "job" on the beach. It's going OK so far...

Here's one thought. The seashore presents at least 4 distinct environments - dry beach, wet beach, wading, diving. Each of these puts different demands on the detector based on saltwater effects on detection, mechanical stresses on the device, environmental effects on the user interface such as noise, with a top of the line detector likely to cost $1500 or more, ot's not practical to have several. What about a detector which is modular - not only one that has different operating modes, but even different physical characteristics. Modular components, not only interchangable coils, headsets, etc, but perhaps power systems - trading operating time and perhaps depth for lightness and rapidity of dry sand coverage - or diving configurations with a completely different set-up?



Rick Kempf

Re: Let's design the world's best beach detector!
Posted by: stephenscool
Date: July 30, 2017 09:01AM
I'm not expecting any ground breaking developments in part because of some facts stated above.
I don't want to think too hard.

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Re: Let's design the world's best beach detector!
Posted by: lytle78
Date: July 30, 2017 10:07AM
Come on SC - think hard!

Seriously, I have no idea what Minelab is up to, but I doubt that they have reached the end of their talents. Likewise, Garrett might someday give is a lightweight successor to the Infinium.

What I do know is that Fisher has announced that they will be developing Pulse Induction detectors and are busily working out how they will look, operate and perform. Since the "low hanging fruit" for PI detectors is a beach machine with discrimination, I think it's safe to expect that that will be an early result.

Will any of our "whizz-bang" indeas/insights help them produce a more effective device? I don't know, but I do know that they are interested in what folks have to say.



Rick Kempf

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