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Re: about li-ion batteries and the F series
Posted by: MarkCZ
Date: July 09, 2017 10:58PM
Quote
juit
So the powerx, they mantain the 9 volt more time ive been using them for a while in paintball guns theve never let me down

A paint ball gun most likely isn't like an electronic device like a metal detector is. The paint ball gun velocity (performance) probably drops off a little as battery voltage drops, just like a flashlight gets a little dimmer as the battery voltage drops. Metal detectors are not like that, they don't lose performance as the battery drops because of the internal regulator feeds the electronics a lesser voltage than the supplied power supply (the batteries) So, a trolling motor if ran at top speed will most likely have a slight speed decrease as the battery voltage drops.

But. for all intent purpose its not a good comparison for AGM batteries (Absorbed Glass Matt- Starved Cell lead acid), Flooded cell lead acid batteries), lithium boat batteries and paint ball gun batteries, and batteries for electronics like metal detectors.

No! metal detectors do not get dimmer like a flashlight as battery voltage falls off. They do what they do until the battery voltage drops below what the electronics is actually operating at, many 9 volt electronics are actually running at 5 volts, and at,
9 volts of incoming voltage the regulator is filtering out 4 volts, and at,
8 volts of incoming voltage the regulator is filtering out 3 volts,
7 volts of incoming voltage the regulator is filtering out 2 volts.
and so on.

But standard batteries (Non Rechargeable) starts out at a certain voltage, will say 9 volts and as they are used the voltage drop is continuous, but the rechargeable's do not do that! they run at their rated voltage with almost no drop in their cycle until the very end of the cycle and then they avalanche and die very quickly.

So, if a Ni-Mh battery is rated at 8 volts and its a higher milliamp then it will hold the 8 volts until the end of its cycle. So its not about, 7.2 volts, 8 volts, 9 volts, or even 9.6 volts! its about how much operation time do you get for the money your spending before the whatever volt rating of the rechargeable avalanches.
The theory of a 9.6 volt has farther to drop than the 8 volt just doesn't hold water in the case of metal detectors!
The rechargeable's I use will hold up to TWO VERY long days of hunting and then some and if I check their voltage its the same as it was when I started, the numbers DO NOT TICK DOWN! this would be bad for a trolling motor in that you would be going along and your motor would feel fully powered and then it would just stop, sort of like the way a gasoline engine does when it runs out of gas.

So, a lot of people come to the table with a correct thought process of a battery and then they carry that thinking into every application, its not that its wrong thinking, it just doesn't carry over from a boat motor, to a paint ball gun, to a metal detector.

Mark

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Re: about li-ion batteries and the F series
Posted by: juit
Date: July 09, 2017 11:10PM
Wrong about paintball guns newer ones are fully computerized but ill try to keep on the initial topic, lve read that some MD like fisher f5 run even better on 20 volts its just an example, my tesoros didnt like rechargables batts, yes you can use the 8.2 volts and we can keep this going on and on but at the end i will trust a batt that gives me the voltage that the manufacturer tells me to run his MD

Ive even asked the same question to a fisher tech and between both he told me to use the hi voltage one instead of the lower one if he was me



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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2017 11:15PM by juit.

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Re: about li-ion batteries and the F series
Posted by: MarkCZ
Date: July 10, 2017 02:40AM
Quote
juit
Wrong about paintball guns newer ones are fully computerized but ill try to keep on the initial topic, lve read that some MD like fisher f5 run even better on 20 volts its just an example, my tesoros didnt like rechargables batts, yes you can use the 8.2 volts and we can keep this going on and on but at the end i will trust a batt that gives me the voltage that the manufacturer tells me to run his MD

Ive even asked the same question to a fisher tech and between both he told me to use the hi voltage one instead of the lower one if he was me

You can hear a lot, but I'm pretty sure if Dave_J was to chime in on the issue of running 20 volts through an F5 he would tell you that it would for sure fry it.
I've also own a few Tesoro's,
2 Tejon's and a Vaquero and I ONLY ran the NI-MH in them without an issue.
Your not gaining more horse power by running HIGHER voltage through a metal detector! the circuits that does the processing (detecting) do not see or receive the increase!!! more to the regulator doesn't put more out of it! it will regulate it to its rated output, but it only has so much that it can handle, go over that and its toast.

If it runs on a 9 volt Alkaline and it will run right for SEVERAL hours and not lose performance then its running on less than 9 volts (it only started out at 9v) that means that is has the ability to run at a lower voltage than 9v or every hour you would have to replace the battery! They will at lest run correct into the 7 volt range, and I know for a fact that many will run down to 5v range.

I also would discourage telling people on a public forum that if they power up their detectors with super high voltage that they are going to gain performance, its not true!

And I'll not debate paint ball guns with you on a metal detecting forum, but I bit you you was to hook up maybe 30 or so volts to one that the paint ball would probably burst in the barrel from excess velocity.

Mark

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Re: about li-ion batteries and the F series
Posted by: juit
Date: July 10, 2017 05:38AM
9 volt batt initially run at 10 volts ive seen some industrial at 10.5, the post about using full 20 volt on a f5 was from a guy in ukraine that is crazy on this detectors Im currently running a f5 with this batts and its really killing with this batts maybe is my imagination who knows, as far I know amps fry electronic more easy than a small increment in voltage



Minelab 705
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Fisher CZ5
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Re: about li-ion batteries and the F series
Posted by: MarkCZ
Date: July 10, 2017 09:00AM
Quote
juit
9 volt batt initially run at 10 volts ive seen some industrial at 10.5, the post about using full 20 volt on a f5 was from a guy in ukraine that is crazy on this detectors Im currently running a f5 with this batts and its really killing with this batts maybe is my imagination who knows, as far I know amps fry electronic more easy than a small increment in voltage

Anytime you increase voltage the flow of current increases (as long as the power supply has the current available), if the regulator is tough enough or has enough headroom to handle the overage then it will dissipate the heat but so the operating electronics don't have to. In the early days of lets say the Teknetics 9000/B I had which operated on 14 AA batteries the electronics where not very energy friendly, and about 6" of depth was all you could get, electronics now are so efficient that the the Omega 8000 will run for days on a single 9 volt battery and I dug a good bit of stuff at 8" to 9" deep (meaning coins).

If you put 20 volts through a electronic device that's designed to operate @ 9 volts which means that the Watt rating for the power handling components would have a rating for that much more power, if you double the voltage using a battery then the watt rating of the electronic components is exceeded by a LOT! That it turn means that the components will over HEAT faster than they can dissipate heat and they burn out (Fry)
As the watt rating for electronics goes up so does its size and the greater need for venting and highly conductive heat sinks,
You have electrical watt rating on components like,
1/8 Watt,
1/4 Watt,
1/2 Watt,
1 Watt,
5 Watt
and so on.
One way they were able to scale down the size of metal detectors where to get more out of the electronic with using less power, these newer detectors sip power, the Watt rating is WAY down the scale. To jump from 1981 with a triple size detector housing that also packed in 14 AA batteries to 2017 and swinging a 1/3 the size detector that has only ONE 9 volt battery is amazing!

There is three sides to electrical power,
Volts, Amps, and Watts.

Mark



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Re: about li-ion batteries and the F series
Posted by: juit
Date: July 10, 2017 03:06PM
They called B.S. :) on your 1 volt burn detector theory, old and new metal detectors have a regulator than can take 30 volts, also when the MD is working the old ones have a big voltage drop and newer ones like 1 or 2 depending if using back light & boostmode



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Re: about li-ion batteries and the F series
Posted by: MarkCZ
Date: July 10, 2017 03:46PM
Quote
juit
They called B.S. :) on your 1 volt burn detector theory, old and new metal detectors have a regulator than can take 30 volts, also when the MD is working the old ones have a big voltage drop and newer ones like 1 or 2 depending if using back light & boostmode

I never said "1 Volt Burn Detector Theory"
I stated that I would be more concerned about over 9 volts than I would under 9 volts! then you came up with the off the wall 20 volts to power an F5 and it will perform better now that's B.S.
I never stated that I knew what the ceiling voltage was on the detector regulators, but unless a Fisher tech told you they were 30 volts I wouldn't trust your source!


Look you come in here with your B.S Paint Ball Crap, and your trolling motor battery concept and tried to compare them to metal detectors and telling people that their detector will get better performance if the UP the voltage to some unreal amount is PURE CRAP and really bad advise!!

Old detectors would run maybe 15 hours on a good set of 14 AA batteries, my omega would run 20 hours on ONE Ni-Mh 9 volt battery.
New detectors DO NOT HAVE THE POWER CONSUMPTION OF THE UNITS OF THE 80's
The newer electronics do what they do and use way less energy doing it!

Well I'm glad your finely on-board with the detectors having regulators, that reduce the voltage to a lower voltage than the input voltage. Which means that even if you put 30 volts to it, its only going to pass through the 5-7 that the detecting circuits actually operate on.

Mark



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2017 04:09PM by MarkCZ.

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Re: about li-ion batteries and the F series
Posted by: juit
Date: July 10, 2017 04:26PM
Quote
MarkCZ
Quote
juit
Powerex 9.6 volt the other mentioned are 8 volts
Now you going over the 9volt rating!
An electronic device that's built to run on 9volts actually operates at a range of 5 -7 volts, there is a regulator that cuts out the over voltage, but its only rated to do so to a certain point then the regulator burns out.
9.6volts, or 24 volts isn't going to give your detector more power, or more run time, but at some point enough over voltage can damage the regulator.

Mark

???


bro take a chill pill Im just messing with you, you started the @#$%& contest

anyway recap before you explode JKing

its safe to use the powerx batts
the techs told me that it was going to run nominal all the time thats actually nice
8.2 batts will loose up to 2 volts on f75 running all boost cache lights and wifi

also I only said that I read that a guy in Ukraine liked to run it like that
I only brought about paintball guns because Ive been using them for a while this brand this voltage and never let me down

we still friends right?



Minelab 705
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Fisher CZ5
Whites m6

Re: about li-ion batteries and the F series
Posted by: Dave J.
Date: July 12, 2017 02:59AM
thanks, Mark, for pinging me that this thread got a little crazy.

for quite a few years now until rather recently, nearly all metal detectors have used linear regulators. The metal detector works samo-samo until the battery voltage drops to within about a volt of the regulated voltage. In the case of 9 volt battery powered units, the regulated voltage is usually 5 volts and things start to go squirrelly when battery voltage drops below 6 volts. Prior to that you may notice a decrease in audio volume but sensitivity isn't affected.

In the case of machines that use two 9 volt batteries, some models wire them in series to get nominal 18 volts which is then regulated down to between 9 1/2 and 11 volts. Others wire the batteries in parallel through rectifiers, and will work on a single battery but less than half as long.

The F5 wires 'em in parallel. There's no such thing as running it on 20 volts.

***** so much for that, now the rechargeables issue.............

Most metal detectors are designed for use with alkaline batteries, either AA's or 9 volt rectangulars depending on the model. 9 volt allkaline batteries start out fresh at close to 10 volts, drop very quickly to 9 volts, and then slide slowly to their death at about 6 volts where they start falling like a rock. AA's, same principle in proportion, below 1.0 volts per cell they kiss the world goodbye.

Rechargeables are another story. Regardless of chemistry, they run a fairly flat voltage until they're just about dead, and then quit. Electric shavers? you're buzzing right along just like you've been doing for nearly a month on the last full charge, and then over the course of about 30 seconds you're fighting to get that last wild hair before the motor stops altogether.

Rechargeable used to mean NiCad. Nowadays there are a number of rechargeable chemistries, with NiMH and Li-ion being especially popular. Good NiMH AA's have about the same ampacity as good alkalines (2200 - 2600 mA-H), but the battery manufacturers weren't putting that same kind of effort into rechargeable 9 volters. 150 to 200 mA-H was typical, compared to 500-650 mA-H for alkalines. I've heard that nowadays there are at least one or two 9 volt rechargable batteries that equal or exceed the service life of alkalines but haven't confirmed that myself. And, I'm not sure what chemistry they are. anything based on lithium will usually have fairly high capacity.

***** and then, there's switching power supplies *********

Linear voltage regulators waste any excess voltage, all they care about is current delivered to the circuit. Service life is proportional to the ampere-hour (ampacity) rating of the battery, not its voltage provided that it's got enough.

Switching power supplies are rapidly taking over in newer designs. These regulate voltage, and at that voltage they draw enough power from the battery (regardless of its voltage) to power the circuit. So service life on a charge is proportional to both the ampacity and the battery voltage.
Examples are our T2, F75, and F44.

***********************************

I suppose that the foregoing has clarified a thing or two for some folks, and further confused others.

--Dave J.

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Re: about li-ion batteries and the F series
Posted by: MarkCZ
Date: July 12, 2017 12:40PM
Thank You Dave For Your Experience And Chiming In :cheers:

Mark

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Re: about li-ion batteries and the F series
Posted by: juit
Date: July 12, 2017 12:43PM
Yup still didnt clarified about 1 volt explote overcharge :surrender:



Minelab 705
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Re: about li-ion batteries and the F series
Posted by: juit
Date: July 12, 2017 12:47PM
I was looking at some reviews on the hybrid lithium batts they look great but have mixed reviews on amazon, gonna try the powerex 8.2 and see if ther work good on my batt hog cz5



Minelab 705
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Fisher CZ5
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Re: about li-ion batteries and the F series
Posted by: dfmike
Date: July 12, 2017 04:56PM
Thanks Dave J.



Active detectors: Fisher F19 LTD, Nokta Fors CoRe, Makro pointer and way too many coils.
Previous detectors: Bounty Hunter Discovery, Fisher F44, Omega 8000 V6, Minelab X-Terra 705, Fisher F5

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Re: about li-ion batteries and the F series
Posted by: amberjack
Date: July 15, 2017 08:57AM
bit more fun for ya's :clapping: got some lifepo4 (Lithium iron phosphate) 9 volts the other day just cause they are there and are cheap and the tech works also... have fun fellas...


AJ

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Re: about li-ion batteries and the F series
Posted by: MarkCZ
Date: July 15, 2017 09:17AM
Quote
amberjack
bit more fun for ya's :clapping: got some lifepo4 (Lithium iron phosphate) 9 volts the other day just cause they are there and are cheap and the tech works also... have fun fellas...


AJ

Aren't these the ones that you are supposed to charge in a cooking pot because they are bad to catch on fire, and isn't these the ones that caused all the Hoover Boards to catch on fire? (That is a question by the way, not a comment) I was just thinking that if it is then its the same type of battery that causes a lot of fiery mishaps in the RC hobby world.

Mark

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