Findmall.com
 
 






Vintage Detecting Forum


Welcome! Log In Register
Analog will never completely die
Posted by: Canewrap
Date: November 02, 2011 06:35PM
It seems like the digital machines just aren't built to take a beating the way the old analog machines were. Also, from what I can tell there is more variability in the individual machines when it comes to the modern crop of digital machines.Without getting into brand bashing I've tried several different digital machines from different manufacturers and I had to send in several because of performance issues that ranged from subtle inability to detect as deep they should (matched up against two other of the same model) to simple inability to operate at all. The new digital machines are small computers and I suspect they just don't have the shock resistance or build quality they need to have for the rigors of off-the-beaten track type of hunting some of us do. I had to post this over in this forum because I know you guys would understand what I'm saying, but then I guess I'm preaching to the choir. Getting so annoyed with my latest digital machine and had to vent.

Hey Canewrap, did you ever find a detector to work in the iron nails?
Posted by: Hombre
Date: November 02, 2011 08:17PM
One of my better analog detectors is the original Bandido from Tesoro, it has a manual 10 turn ground balance, adjustable sens.,disc.,,threshold...... and a true threshold based all-metal mode. It does'nt get anymore analog than that. It's great in the iron nails, around old homesteads, cellar holes, building teardowns etc. If it beeps, dig it, it is just great in the older places, without aluminum canslaw, that stuff is everywhere. It was one of Monte's favorites, I've had mine since 2001, lucked out and found one new in the box old stock, good price too. They are worth looking for and Tesoro still can service them, they even had parts to fix my 'ol Inca (circa 1983) great company:thumbup:



" If in doubt, dig it out"

I use various analog detectors, knobs and switches rule.

Randy from south central Kansas

Re: Hey Canewrap, did you ever find a detector to work in the iron nails?
Posted by: Canewrap
Date: November 02, 2011 09:01PM
The short answer to your question about a detector to work in the nails is no. But, I am still looking. The problem was it needed fantastic separation in the nails, but also needed to be able to pick out a non-ferrous target at 8". I had an Eldorado that I now regret selling. I am appreciating the Tejon I have more and more. It was new when I got it last year and its way better than the used one I had a few years ago. Its more stable, deeper and just better. The one I had a few years ago was practically beat to death when I got it in a trade. I sent it in to Tesoro and it came back better but still not as good as the one I have now. I need to get a smaller coil for it, just haven't decided whether it should be the concentric or a DD coil, since it might just be able to get just enough depth and discrimination to answer the mail on my previously stated problem, with the nails. I have a CW camp that has been hard hunted, but I know there is still stuff there. I was considering the 8.5" Widescan coil, but someone said it won't get any better depth than the 5.75 coil.

Short reply........get the 5.75 concentric, it will surprise you, I have one for my Bandido.......
Posted by: Hombre
Date: November 03, 2011 08:00AM
One of my favorite people to talk to on the phone about detecting is Ty Brook (author of Tech Talk W&E Treasure) He lives, I think, down around your part of the country. He is a very savvy detectorist, the last time I had a conversation with him, he was using the Tejon with the 5.75 "Hot" concentric coil. That was his main detector for relics down in Alabama, at the time he had found some of the rare "AVC" confederate buttons with that set-up.



" If in doubt, dig it out"

I use various analog detectors, knobs and switches rule.

Randy from south central Kansas

I hope not, but they are slowing disappearing. :ranting:
Posted by: Monte
Date: November 05, 2011 09:43AM
It is up to the loyal and avid detectorist to keep the best detectors we have had alive and well. Manufacturers have had to follow some modern electronic design 'trends' that has shifted production to all the techie digital designs. Yes, there are some good models out there that are essentially a digital detector. Some are quite glitchy but others aren't too bad ... however ....

I do have a 'modern' unit (Teknetics Omega) that fits in my personal detector arsenal for some casual hunting needs, and I have a White's XLT that I rely on as my 'cruising unit' for open areas, mainly. Other than those two, and perhaps something else that's new and trendy, if I happen to like it and can afford it, I have been trimming my personal arsenal to mainly good-quality/top-performing analog detectors.

I hunt a LOT of older sites that are quite nail infested, and many that have other varying amounts of iron-based junk. Small hunks of rusty tin, old bottle caps, nuts and bolts, and plain of crap left behind, especially in the old railroad towns I like to hunt. To best handle such challenging sites I have (and still do) relied on a quick-response/fast-recovery 2-filter analog detectors with a smaller-than-stock search coil.

My personal favorites include these:

Tesoro Bandido and Bandido II for manual GB and working in iron nails.

Tesoro Silver Sabre II for preset GB and hunting in iron nails.

Tesoro Eldorado µMAX and Tejón are fair for iron situations, but work well in dense mineralization or flattish rock sites due to the true ED-180, all-metal accept Disc. capability.

The Silver Sabre µMAX and Bandido II µMAX are not as good in iron nails/trash as the early versions of the Silver Sabre and Bandido series, but they are workable.

With all these Tesoro's I only use a 5ľ" or 7" concentric search coil.

My best picks are the White's Classic II w/8" for nail littered sites.

Classic ID w/6˝" for nail littered sites.

Classic III SL or IDX Pro w/4' or 6˝" coils for the trashiest of sites AND they provide the ED-180 acceptance for all-metal detection in challenging mineralized environments.

Even better is a Bill Crabtree modified Classic III SL or IDX Pro which has manual GB.

The White's Classic series were ignored by dealers or just not promoted as well as they could have been by the factory and/or dealers when the 'rush' was on for folks to go high-tech and trendy. If I had the $$$ I would have a couple of better-featured, analog, Classic III and IDX pro models made exclusively.

Exclusive for me, and for the savvy detectorists who knows the strengths of a great analog detector.

Biased opinions allowed. :)

Monte

PS: I have a brand new 5.3 BullsEye coil (6˝" diameter) just waiting for my modified IDX Pro to arrive now.



"Your EYES ... the only 100% accurate form of Discrimination!"


Stinkwater Wells

Just a name that brings back fond memories of old alkali desert favorite sites in Utah, Nevada, and Eastern Oregon. There is no pastime I enjoy more than hunting old sites as best I can, doing research, and helping others learn more about this great hobby.:
My 'Tag-Along' buddies: White's MXT All-Pro w/9", MX5 w/6˝", and modified IDX Pro w/6˝".

My 'On-Call' detectors: Compass Coin Hustler & 99B TR's, Teknetics Euro-Tek Pro, Tesoro Bandido II µMAX and others I want to tinker with.

monte@stinkwaterwells.com
(503) 481-8147


Re: Analog will never completely die
Posted by: amcjavelin
Date: November 30, 2011 07:17PM
Well maybe from the usa but analog is produced new and alive and well in europe and there are some decent machines that i use frequently and haven't looked back

Re: Analog will never completely die
Posted by: Canewrap
Date: December 02, 2011 12:46PM
Do tell. What machines have you gotten from Europe that are worth mentioning?

Monte, as usual, is spot on in this subject:thumbup:
Posted by: Hombre
Date: December 03, 2011 06:02AM
As well as others who have suggested a nice two filter detector like an early Tesoro Bandido, Bandido ll or one of the White's Classics, such as the Classic lll SL, IDX, IDX Pro. I would mention that to get the best out of these favorites, you must mount a smaller than stock coil on them to work the iron nails with precision. That would include using the 6˝" BM600, BM 5.3 or 5.3 BullsEye on the Classics.......and the 7" concentric coil on the first two Bandidos. With some luck and a couple of hundred bucks and a little surfing, you can pick up a nice specimen of the previously mentioned detectors.



" If in doubt, dig it out"

I use various analog detectors, knobs and switches rule.

Randy from south central Kansas

Re: Hey Canewrap, did you ever find a detector to work in the iron nails?
Posted by: Nauti Neil
Date: December 03, 2011 03:25PM
Hi canewrap,i know this is a little late in the day(i've only just read the post)but have you ever considered an xp goldmax power for use in heavily iron infested areas.They are used extensively on ancient sites over here in britain to find tiny roman and hammered coins in amongst very heavy iron contamination.Thet are not cheap and they take a little learning but you won't find a better machine in the iron.It will also pick out non ferous targets to depths of 8" and more depending on the objects size.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2011 03:28PM by Nauti Neil.

Re: Analog will never completely die
Posted by: amcjavelin
Date: December 03, 2011 04:29PM
I 've been running Deep Tech VLF machines and i have the vista rg 1000 V-2 that runs at 12.5khz dual tone or single really deep machine the disc works like this which is a non ferrous and ferrous detector the disc can be set all the way maxed and it will still find nickels and gold rings just pretty much does away with large iron the only bugger that i sometimes have a hard time with is aluminum but i'm getting the tone down now and i also have the Vista Gold runs at 25khz dual tone as well set up for small coinage and gold items has a signal boost plus a fast and slow recovery switch plus a seperate iron tone switch so you can really pick out the good stuff, really likes buttons these are the only machines i don't think i could ever part with, there that good for my hunting style!

Avid detectorists in Europe , elsewhere AND in the USA know about 'analog' performance.
Posted by: Monte
Date: December 05, 2011 09:27AM
It is easy for many hobbyists around here to get caught up in all the newness that manufactures keep offering. For those who hunt a wide-range of targets in widely-varying sizes and shapes and alloys, it is tough to beat a good analog detector.

Most metal detectors got their start here in the USA, and without a doubt the bulk of the quality built products come from manufacturers here. Yes, there are some well designed models from what we consider to be foreign sources, but most hobbyists are here in the USA and get their detectors her, and for what most hobbyists tend to enjoy. That enjoyment comes from Coin Hunting.

Yes, you can hunt coins in other lands, but separate metal detecting hobbyists into one of two groups:

A "Traditional Coin Hunter" or an "Avid Detectorist."

Metal detector design used to be quite simple, You chose either BFO or a TR model and hunted. Found something and you heard a motorboat increase in beats (BFO) or a 'Beep' (TR), then you recovered it, looked at it, and decided if you wanted it or not.

Then came variable Discrimination and we could reject some of the lower-conductive targets and be a little more selective in what might give us a 'Beep.'

In only a few short years, by '75, we had the VLF (very low frequency) models that gave us ground cancellation from most major manufacturers and we could balance out the ground signal, search, get a 'Beep,' recover it, and take a look to see what we found. Any type of soil in any country, we all had the same options. Then came the dual mode VLF/TR-Disc. models in the '70s, then in 1978 our first motion-based VLF Discriminator (the Bounty Hunter Red Baron), and in no time at all, every major detector maker had copied or designed their own. Most were a fast-sweep 4-filter design, but we could still follow the same steps. All of us might reject some lower-conductivity targets, then search, get a 'Beep,' recover the target and determine if it was a keeper or not.

In '82/'83 we got our first slow-motion, 2-filter type detectors, and very shortly in ±'83 we were introduced to visual Target ID. Produced mainly here in the USA, and the display depicted the most common targets we would likely find. Not perfect, but not too hard to accomplish because we only had a few coin targets to define and mark on the display. For roughly 150 years or so, most of the coins we (in the USA) were likely to lose, to be found today, in all the popular human activity site were: The US 5˘, copper 1˘, silver and clad 10˘, 25˘, 50˘ coins and the big silver $1 and only a small number of clad $1.

Most of these were made of the same or very similar metal alloy and size and shape, and they registered very similar on the target ID display. Later in the '80s they added the separation between Copper (Cu) and Zinc (Zn) 1˘ coins (in '82 they transitioned with both types and in '83 the US went to all zinc pennies). Today we also see some detector models that do NOT show the higher-conductive silver $1 coins because, well, they just aren't in common use or often found. Some manufacturers only list the 10˘ coin at a higher reading than the current Zinc 1˘ where they used to suggest a Copper 1˘ and 10˘ coin together as they have similar read-outs. Then recently I checked out a model that shows the modern a US $1 coin on the display just between the 25˘ and 50˘ US coins.

Added to the TID visual report were different segments for Iron and smaller foil, and most of the early ring-pull type tabs. That set the stage for what I called the separation of the "Traditional Coin Hunter"and the "Avid Detectorist." So, what are the differences as I define them?

"Traditional Coin Hunter"
A person who engages primarily or exclusively in the search for common coins, with great frustration at recovering any trash, and who uses every available metal detector feature to help eliminate recovering any possible or probably trash target. (such as Visual Target ID, VDI, Standard Discrimination, Notch Discrimination and Tone ID.) In addition, the very earnest "Traditionalist" will even avoid recovering any so-so target signal, even to the point of only being interested in those targets that provide a reasonably good audio response AND the almost expect a 100% lock-on type visual display of Target ID or a numeric VDI number before they even consider recovery.

To make modern detectors a little smaller and lighter and provide some different sets of visual Target ID and numeric VDI readings, most major manufacturers have gone the route of more digital signal processing. Some a bit, and some to an extreme, but the end result is the same. The more digital filtering and processing, the different the detector will behave.


"Avid Detectorist"
A person who might glance at the visual display, but it is only for a hint of what might be the target down there, and usually only to get an idea of what the size or shape or color might be they are looking for (such as a dark coin Vs a shiny coin). It is my opinion that the "Avid Detectorist" might not start out as the most learned or skilled detector operator, but it time they will become more proficient and skilled than the average urban Coin Hunter. While the Avid Detectorist might also look for coins, they also are enthusiastic about finding jewelry, trade tokens, bullets, buckles, bells, and any kind of interesting artifact.

To accomplish they mission, the turn the detector on and tune it, usually selecting a very low level of Discrimination, such as just enough to knock out a common iron nail, or maybe (like me most of the time) they simply set it at the minimum and will hear every target the detector can signal on. TheAvis Detectorist might use, but doesn't need (or often want)( the visual display information. Instead, the turn the detector o;n, tune it, search,m and when they get a 'Beep', they recover the target.

Since most Target ID models are made in the USA (or for the USA) and they have display information that suggests USA coins, they are of very little value to many foreign countries. For two very good reasons:

1.. Many countries do not allow metal detecting in public parks and schools and grassy sites. Some just lack much opportunity, compared to here in the USA.

2.. Most foreign countries tend to have a lot of metal detecting opportunities, even very governed, that put the detectorist out in a plowed field or other out-of-the-way location, and they are searching for ALL types of artifacts. Not just a half-dozen popular and similar sized coins from the past 150 years like here in the USA, but a vast array of sizes, shapes and alloys of coins from hundreds of years to thousands! ANY artifact, large or small, or a cache of buried items, and in most cases nobody cares about what a visual display might hint to. Instead, they turn the detector on, search, and when nit 'Beeps' the recover the target and take a look at it.

Of course so;me detector makers try to give some broad generalized idea of what range some targets might fall in and they put those displays on a USA detector to maybe help them sell abroad. But it isn't needed, by any dedicated or avid searcher, and we just want some of the best and most versatile in-the-field performance.

All detectors, when we really get down to it, are analog in the signal transmitting and receiving, and the differences really show when the receive signal is then conveyed very simply, in an analog signal fashion (it has nothing to do with visual displays), or if that received signal is then processed, a number of different times for a number of different things (not needed for the audio but really incorporated for visual display and audio Tone ID signaling) in a digital manner.

Can a highly digital processing detector be used everywhere. Sure, I just don't like what a lot of them do for most of my hunting sites and hunting needs, and I find them less accurate with an audio response that I can easily interpret. Can an analog based detector be used everywhere? Yes, and in many cases with easier to learn and use set-up and resulting performance. I have a coup,e of the digitally inspired models, but most of my detecting is done with one of the best A to D (analog to digital) detectors I have enjoyed, the White's XLT, whereas most of me serious detecting is accomplished with the very affordable, and often over-looked, analog operation White's Classic IDX Pro or a Classic III SL (same model but w/o any TID display).

Back about fifteen years ago I gave a little hand-on instruction tom an older local guy who had retired and made a couple of trips a year over to England to hunt with some groups or in an invited party. He had used several top-end detectors from several manufacturers, and did seem to be too interested in the TID, although he learned there not to rely on it. The furrows and such in the plowed fields caused him some problems as did the weight of the heavier search coils. Also, some models had too much discrimination, even on the low end, and it was time for a wake-up call. :)

I visited with him and pointed out that his White's Classic III SL was quite possibly the best detector he had for hunting those types of sites. It was my favorite at the time. The TID version of the Classic ID wasn't released yet, and the Classic IDX and later IDX Pro were simply the Classic III SL with the TID added. The Classic III SL, and my favorite general-purpose IDX Pro, are top picks for handling any of those foreign sites, and I demonstrated why by showing what they did here in similar applications.

He learned that the slow-sweep, all metal,accept, silent-search Discriminate operation was absolutely fantastic! Using the 6˝" diameter coil he already had he was surprised to note that the depth was almost what he got with the 950 coil, but it worked better in the plowed fields and in the furrows, and isolating closely-spaced target. Better still, it had the nice, clean analog audio response and excellent modulated audio to compliment the wonderful depth. From then on, all of his trips he only used that model and had greater success, too.

Many local hobbyists have bought the $900 to $1800 (US dollars) higher mid-to-top end models in the past year or two, only to find out that they seem a little lacking in many trashy sites. Iron nail littered places with closely-spaced nails. Many of the digital model, even with smaller coil in the 5" range, don't handle the nail trash like a good analog detector will. Other actually in-the-field challenges, beyond simple in-the-park Coin Hunting encounters, have frustrated many of them.

Slowly, especially over the last several months to a few years. I have seen more and more of them look for and acquire a good-working analog White's Classic model. Some have gone with the XL Pro, but most have bought, or are looking for, the Classic ID or especially the Classic III SL or IDX Pro.


Quote
amcjavelin[[b
Well maybe from the usa but analog is produced new and alive and well in europe and there are some decent machines that i use frequently and haven't looked back.[/b]
Many savvy USA "Avid Detectorists" are in total agreement with you and we wish the Classic series would be resurrected, in its excellent analog form, to rejoin the ranks of decent detectors that we own, and use, and also don't need to "look back." Too bad White's discontinued the Classic series and the XL Pro. I am not alone in wishing they would just bring back what works well for all of us. :thumbup:

You are not alone. The USA has offered a lot of really unwanted detectors for the foreign market and you already have some good models made for you, over that way, that lack the visual stuff, but provide raw performance. We need more of those to come from our detector makers because many of us here know the values of a good analog detector.

Sorry to ramble. My old computer died and I am trying to learn this new laptop, pardon my typos, and forum readers here just have to suffer. :rofl:

Best of success to everyone in the year to come!

Monte

PS: For a reality check, just read below. Much better than fancy digital visual info, and totally accurate. :thumbup:



"Your EYES ... the only 100% accurate form of Discrimination!"


Stinkwater Wells

Just a name that brings back fond memories of old alkali desert favorite sites in Utah, Nevada, and Eastern Oregon. There is no pastime I enjoy more than hunting old sites as best I can, doing research, and helping others learn more about this great hobby.:
My 'Tag-Along' buddies: White's MXT All-Pro w/9", MX5 w/6˝", and modified IDX Pro w/6˝".

My 'On-Call' detectors: Compass Coin Hustler & 99B TR's, Teknetics Euro-Tek Pro, Tesoro Bandido II µMAX and others I want to tinker with.

monte@stinkwaterwells.com
(503) 481-8147


Re: Avid detectorists in Europe , elsewhere AND in the USA know about 'analog' performance.
Posted by: Nauti Neil
Date: December 05, 2011 01:36PM
Keep rambling Monte......that was a really enjoyable piece to read.I've tried to write a post like that many times but never been able to get it across as well as you have.Will people listen???,probably not......most detectorists today still believe that the best results come from using the latest gizmo packed detectors.It's the same over here in England......try to explain the benefits you can obtain from using a really simple detector and they think you're barmy:lol:
Thanks again for the enjoyable read.

Re: Avid detectorists in Europe , elsewhere AND in the USA know about 'analog' performance.
Posted by: Canewrap
Date: December 06, 2011 04:54PM
I think its funny in a way that the popularity of the newer digital detectors will probably slow the pace at which sites are getting cleaned out due to good targets staying masked under the trash that the cherry picking TIDs are leaving behind, instead of cleaning out all the good targets like everybody that buys into the TID idea are thinking.

My son and I have started hunting an 1856 Antebellum mansion that was a hospital during the Civil War and while it was detected alot over the last 30 years there is so much junk left in the front and back yards that I know good finds are still there, the yard is littered with iron. We're going to start gridding the yard and systematically clean out areas and then look for deep targets. I'm sure we'll turn up a few things over the next couple of years as we go back to visit and detect, off an on. The guy loves it that we're detecting his yard, because he wants the historic artifacts, having to do with the house that we find, like the shutter dog and block and tackle pieces we found, but anything CW, (buttons, bullets, etc.) we get to keep.

Re: Hey Canewrap, did you ever find a detector to work in the iron nails?
Posted by: Canewrap
Date: December 06, 2011 04:57PM
No I haven't considered that machine, but I have quite a few sites begging for something that can get that depth and seperation in nails. I'll take a look at it. Thanks. For the record I'm using a Tejon and I am really liking this one. We have moderate to almost bad ground in our back yard. Last year I buried a couple targets, including a flat button (8" deep), slightly smaller than a dime. The TID machines I was using were identifying it as an iron target. I recently tried out the Tejon on it and it identifies it as a good target, even when I go into disc 2, which is set just above foil. I'm working on getting a 5.75 coil for it and if it still can register that button as a good target with that coil, I am seriously set to do some recovery on a few trashy sites I know of. I think I finally have the machine I've been looking for.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2011 05:06PM by Canewrap.

avatar
Re: Analog will never completely die
Posted by: nw1886
Date: December 15, 2011 10:41AM
I have and use heavily the new digital tech. (Love it for how you can "get in" to specific situations.) As much as I enjoy it, I don't know if I can ever get away from using a quality analog unit because of audio strengths. A long hunt with digital is rough on me and switching to analog (after a stretch) proves why that audio is more natural with less "processing stress". Same thing when comparing my music equipment.....and all who listen agree. (Audiophiles call this "warmth", and this means comfort to our brain.) The "window" this offers in detecting, will keep finding stuff digital misses always the case. Face it...comfort does mean more finds at the very least.

Tone ID is huge for me but it has absolutely no added info within the ramp up and ramp down from a target. I can't say wholeheartedly that analog is best.....but what it is best at will keep older well designed boxes (and newer offerings) in demand and in many detectorists hands for sure.

Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login