Whites TDI Classroom

I personally prefer the facts and evidence versus emotional outbursts and personal attacks. Thanks for the informative posts Reg! To which other forum were you referring Daniel Tn?

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White's IDX Pro, White's TDI SL



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2011 07:03AM by dbsmokey.

I, too, tremendously appreciate Reg's knowledge and posts.
The day after the SL was released, I took my TDI Pro to my fav dealer, Greg's, and did a real field test comparison with several different coils and dug up real targets. I left the Pro and took home the SL and couldn't be happier. I can verify that Reg's info is field-tested accurate. If I had another arm and hand I could take my own videos, but frankly have never felt the need or desire to prove anything to anybody. The only person that matters is me. Instead of all the whining, I recommend everyone pull out your own money, make an appointment with a dealer, and drive over there and test them yourself on real ground with real targets, then buy the one YOU like. I would never buy a detector, or a car, just based on what I've read. The data is helpful to narrow down your choices, but you've got to take them for a real test drive to know which one FEELS the best to you. That's why White's has dealers - use them!

GoldChaser

I couldn't agree more ,good post!
I have used my SL on ground ,where the High dollar machines failed.
Yes I found gold,and it works flawless. Thanks to Reg and his advice
I now have a detector that gets the job done.

My SL is darn sure not for sale!

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sawmill
GoldChaser

I couldn't agree more ,good post!
I have used my SL on ground ,where the High dollar machines failed.
Yes I found gold,and it works flawless. Thanks to Reg and his advice
I now have a detector that gets the job done.

My SL is darn sure not for sale!

I am curious how the Minelab PI's failed, in what respect.?


Also on another note, anyone correct me if I am wrong, the TDI SL is better than the TDI Pro in every way except the TDI SL gets less depth, has no Li-Ion battery and has a single GB(no fine GB).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2011 01:17PM by David.

Failed Minelab PI's can be discussed on the Minelab forum or in a PM. Just trying to nip a Brand X vs. Brand Y in the bud here.

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Bells and whistles are nice, but nothing will substitute for the basic understanding of the hobby.

CTX 3030, V3i, M6 W/Bigfoot coil, Cibola/modified

David,

I am not sure of why you wrote your question, so I am not sure if I should even respond, but I will this time. First, Sawmill has discussed his issues with other detectors on a different forum. So, you can find the information to your question pertaining to the high priced detector if you really are looking for his reasoning. However, in my opinion, that isn't why Sawmill wrote what he did on this forum.

He owns the SL and is quite pleased with how it works for him where he hunts. Now, he didn't say so, but he knows the SL isn't perfect but it works where he uses it. This is his point. Also, please read again what he did write and don't try to read anything else into it because he never said it was the best model of the TDI units. What he said was it served his purpose very well where he uses it.

In simple terms, I also feel he is also supporting the fact, I wrote about the differences and the concerns I see on other forums. Now, contrary to what has been posted by others, I never mentioned people should not read other forums or even follow the advice one can find given by other people. People are free to do what they want and I certainly believe in that freedom.

What I caution people is don't believe everything you see on a video or even what people, including myself write. Instead, I am a strong advocate of testing a detector yourself. In fact I feel it is the only way to know for sure just what is what and whether you might or might like a particular detector. Now, having said that, I also feel a person should use a detector properly when testing and the tests should be in the real world environment whenever possible. I also advocate that any new owner take time to better learn their detector before making a full judgement, especially when it comes to trying a PI.

The truth is it is very simple to make any PI detector appear to fail or look bad. In fact, if you can't do that, you are really inexperienced. Along the same lines, does making a video by an inexperienced user really mean that video contains important or accurate information?

Well, some people might think so and in fact have gone through the effort of counting my paragraphs and and then claiming what I say is of little value because they saw a video that may contradict what I say.

Also, one guy claims I don't hunt with detectors but am simply some amateur who knows how detectors work. He then goes on claiming I am calling him names. Well, the truth is, I have tested dozens of detectors and equipment over several years for a treasure hunting magazine plus had my own column for many years in that same magazine where I discussed different detectors in detail plus offered suggestions for people to try. The truth is, I have most likely have owned and/or tested more detectors than most detector users will ever own. I have also found more gold than many part time gold hunters will ever find, especially over the same actual hunt time.

More importantly, I have been very fortunate enough to have communications and other relationships with some of the best engineers involved with PI and VLF detectors. I take great pride in being able to say I have learned from some of the best in the detector industry. In fact, last year I had the opportunity to work with some of the best for a week. Also, during that time I met with others well known in the industry. It was great to meet up again with legends such as George Payne and Roy Van Epps. Also, working with Eric Foster, Carl Moreland, John Earle and other White's engineers for a week was a once in a lifetime opportunity for me.

Now, with that said, I don't claim to be the best or to have found the most, nor do I expect people to believe me over others, simply because I say so, but I will always try to provide explanations and recommended testing procedures to verify what I do say. Whether you believe what I say or not is up to you.

I will tell you the earth is round, or the sun comes up in the East and maybe why summer days are longer, and do so based upon technical facts and not on some video I saw. Sawmill knows that because he has read a lot of what I have written in technical discussions on other forums. Also, we have communicated via emails where we have discussed a lot of issues including some of the limitations of the SL or other PI's.

In simple terms, I feel Sawmill was supporting what I say because he feels I know what I am talking about and what he has experienced himself. His intent wasn't to belittle or condemn any other detector but to simply state the SL works for him.

Reg

Thanks Reg
I couldn't have said it any better.

Larry (IL)
No problem,I didn't mention any brand in my post,for a reason.
There is several brands of high dollar detectors,compared to the SL.

I didn't come here to discuss other brands. I am not a hobby hunter and
use my detectors for profit. The SL is doing just fine,and I appreciate all
of Reg's help and advice.

OK Larry.

Thanks Reg for setting it clear.! One metal detector industry legend you did not mention was Dave Johnson, but you are very lucky to work with those others.

Hi David,

You are right, Dave Johnson is an exceptional engineer that is also a legend in the detector industry.

Unfortunately, I never met Dave Johnson, but wished I had, especially when he lived in Prescott, AZ. He and I have a mutual friend there, Bill Hays. I used to stop by and see Bill on my many trips to AZ, but Dave was never there and I wasn't going to impose on Bill's friendship.

One other person I failed to mention was Jack Gifford of Tesoro. He was also one of the legends that gave me excellent information when I would ask. I stopped by Tesoro several times on my AZ trips and on one trip, Jack gave me copies of the schematics of his detectors of that day. That was unheard of at the time. This type of information made it possible to answer questions that could only be answered by having such information.

Reg

Reg, first of all thank you for what you do, and for sharing that information. I do not own a TDI, but a hunting partner has access to a TDI SL for about another week. We hunt cellar holes in New England and are both considering the SL. I know it is a great gold detector, but we are hoping it can also do some deep relic recovery in our particular soil. With all the confusing information on line I was hoping you could throw us a good way to basically run the machine with our area in mind. One week (actually only 1 day of hunting) left is not a good test, but where else are we to go and get that kind of knowledge in such a short time? Any help in getting us on the correct track would be appreciated, crash course and all. If there is a particularly, well done video that anyone knows of that we could see the proper settings and techniques, please post or E mail me. I want to give this machine a fair shake before we have to give it back. Our biggest problem has been in knocking out the deep iron....it sounds like a coin reading to us.If one of us buys one, we may even get a small 3" coil for it from a manufacturer that I am not sure is a good thing to mention here lol Thanks for any help, George

Hi George,

First, I haven't spent that much time looking for anything but gold with the SL so I can't say for sure just what you have to do. It does act a little differently than the regular TDI, especially when it comes to the ground balance. The SL is touchier to balance so it will most likely be more difficult to use in the single tone mode.

Hopefully, now that the gold hunting is about over because of the change in the weather, I can spend more time with the SL testing for other items.

With that said, I am not sure what you would be looking for so adjusting the detector is difficult to determine. The SL should respond very similar to the TDI when it comes to ignoring large iron using the same basic techniques. So, if you read the techniques already written about the TDI and apply them, it should help. Unfortunately, I can't say if it will be more difficult to operate that way all the time.

I do expect the SL to require a nice slow sweep action when possible. I know I need that when nugget hunting to avoid odd signals. I have found that sudden jerky coil motion can generate some false signals if the GB isn't right on. Fortunately, such signals are easy to determine with another pass or two, but such signals are not nearly as frequent on the TDI.

I have spent a little time hunting for silver and copper coins in the local parks but not that much. The SL did seem to work ok but again, it was quite some time back and I don't remember if there were any major difficulties. Now,I suspect this setup will be or at least could be more difficult because the SL appears to be touchier when it comes to the GB being not correct and this quirk is ground dependent. So, a lot of how the detector will act will depend upon the ground conditions at the location itself. So, in some ways or areas, the regular TDI may work better.

Unfortunately, there is no sure fire way to determine ferrous junk regardless of which TDI one uses. The adjustment of the GB control does a good job of giving an idea but it may require a frequent adjustment of the GB if the ground is causing false signals on the SL.

I wish I could give you more of a definitive answer but I can't at this time. To make matters worse, it takes weeks to months to really get a handle on the TDI or the SL and the adjustments that work best on each detector. Unfortunately, you don't have that time available. Even for me, it will take time with the SL to determine just what works best when hunting other things besides gold and how well the SL will ultimately work for typical coin hunting.

I probably should have spent more spare time with the SL these last few months but instead, I spent a lot of time in a dentist's office getting a lot of major work done. Fortunately, I only have two more visits and I will be done with that for a while. Then, maybe I will be able to concentrate more on working with the SL looking for other things besides gold.

Reg

Thanks Reg, I knew it wasn't going to be easy with the given time frame. We will concentrate on trying to eliminate (or reduce) the hits on nails around the cellar holes, by adjusting the ground balance control. But I guess we will have to be content with knocking out some iron, but not all. Eventually, they will figure out how to engineer the future machines, to eliminate the iron factor. Thanks again.

Hi George,

One of the nice things about the SL is the very quiet threshold. On the other hand, one of the bad things about the SL is the quiet threshold. How can it be both? Well, the answer is simple, you can't hear some of the strange things that may be going on. It is even hard to hear the noise base that can be reduced using the frequency control, so quite often this control is overlooked and not adjusted correctly. Does it matter? Yep, it does and can cause depth loss if not adjusted correctly.

The quiet threshold gives one a false impression of ease of use. The truth is, the SL, like the TDI requires a certain sweep speed for maximum depth. This is more obvious when testing with a small target but the same thing happens with a larger target also.

Now, the SL has circuitry that minimizes the noise one hears. It doesn't eliminate the noise. There is a difference. The worse the hidden noise, the more obvious certain things become. Listen very carefully to the weakest signal you can hear and when the noise level is minimal, that threshold target signal level is very small. Fail to adjust the frequency and work in a noisy environment and you may hear the signal from the weakest target seem to jump out at you with a little more signal. In simple terms, those targets that could be heard with the noise level at minimal will not be heard, just like they won't be heard or heard easily on a regular TDI.

Then there is the internal filtering that requires a certain sweep speed for the best results. Since there are several filters, some interact sufficiently that they can reduce depth while reducing noise, especially if the sweep speed isn't maximized. The Pro uses slightly different filtering than the TDI and that is why it can detect smaller gold a little better. On the down side, this filter change can cause some depth loss in really noisy areas.

So, everything is a tradeoff, with nothing being perfect. A perfect example is the fact there is a special circuit that shuts off half of the signal, thus allowing for the single tone mode to work. This special shutoff is designed to work best at the ideal sweep speed. Bounce or sweep the coil too fast and this special circuit is out of sync, thus allowing a tiny bit of non desirable signal to get through. Since the filter is fixed, this will always happen a little and does so on all TDI models, but is more pronounced on the SL because of the special noise reducing circuitry.

The point is, the SL is very quiet and smooth in most environments, but can be touchier in the worst of ground conditions. Just how touchy depends upon the sweep speed, the ground conditions, and the GB setting. They all interact. Again, this enhanced sensitivity is a tradeoff for the quiet feature.

Keep in mind there are clear differences in the TDI, the Pro, and the SL. No one TDI version will act exactly like one of the others because of the design differences. So, if you decide to try the TDI, you will immediately notice certain things including a noisier threshold.

Have fun and hope you have good luck.

Reg

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Reg
Hi AZblackbird,

Anyone can find faults or complain with anything today. Personally, I feel those who complain should provide solutions in the form of real world fixes. The idea of this forum is to provide help and solutions to problems would be help in the best form. I am sure Whites would like that also. So, I would prefer those who complain and claim something isn't right, simply provide a fix that works.

So, wouldn't be better if Daniel provide cures or solutions?

I am sure everyone would prefer that.

Reg

Hi Reg,
You sure have spoken a lot of sense in your past few posts but I don't agree with this last one.

Anybody is capable of complaining about or pointing out certain characteristics of a thing that they feel could be improved upon.
For eg: A new wiz bang detector hits the market and a newbie buyes one and tries to use it as per the instructions but finds he cannot tune it or maybe it won't stay tuned or makes funny noises as the coil passes over wet grass. he has payed a lot of money for the machine aand figures in this high tech age that the machine is a pain in the butt and so complains about it. He may or may not be correct in assuming it is a dud unit but he has pointed out an issue that he feels is not right and so the manufacturer looks at the complaint and takes the necessary action.

Just like many years ago when I took my first driving lesson with a licensed driving instructor; I hoped into the car and away we went and after a while I said to the instructor that I thought his car was not steering correctly; He said "it is fine this is the first car you have driven, how can you know how it is supposed to steer?". And he was correct, I new nothing about car steering systems.

The following week at my next lesson he said that I was correct and that front wheels were way out of alignment.
So even though the instructor knew that I was ignorant where car steering mechanisms were conserned he still went and had the steering checked.

There was no way I could have told him how the problem could be fixed let alone if it actually existed at all.

Do you get my drift?

Cheers
Adrian SS

He doesn't know how the detector works just like most people have not got a clue how their car engine works