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Re: Coiltek 6" Mono Tdi coil test against NF Sadie, Miner John 6" folded mono, White's 150 etc..
Posted by: karelian
Date: March 30, 2017 10:50PM
Final ground test results of medium and large coils. All tests conducted at the same time and place as the small coil tests..

Tdi Pro Oz Series, gain 5, pulse delay 10, frequency all the way left, ground balance between 8-9, threshold past the warbles loud but smooth, conductivity in ALL. Internal speaker set at max..

All coils tested worked in hot ground, White's duelfield was a bit unstable and noisy but worked. If I'd switched to Low it would have quietened down but I left it in ALL for the tests.

Coils tested, the Miner John folded mono was a 12 x 8, not 11 x 7 as stated earlier..

Digger 14x8 mono. 1 grain 2cm/.75", Australia 5 cents 28/11", Australian 3 pence 19cm/7.5", 0.5 gram gold coin 16cm/6.5", 1/2 Sovereign gold coin 30cm/12", 1 penny 33cm/13", Buckle 53cm/20.75", US Quarter 27cm/10.5"..........................

Detech 15x10 mono. 1 grain 2cm/.75, Aust. 5c 29cm/11.5", Aust. 3 pence 18cm/7", 0.5g gold coin 18cm/7", 1.2 Sovereign 27cm/10.5", 1 penny 33cm/13", buckle 54cm/21", US Quarter 27cm/10.5".........................................

White's 12 OZ mono. 1 grain 2cm/..75", Aust. 5 cents 26cm/10.25", 3 pence 18cm/7", 0.5g coin 18cm/7", 1/2 sovereign 26cm/10.25", penny 28cm/11", buckle 50cm/19.75", US Quarter 27cm/10.5".................................................

White's Duelfield. 1 grain 3 cm/1.25", Au. 5 cents 26cm/10.25", Au 3 pence 18cm/7", 0.5g coin 18cm/7", 1/2 Sovereign 26cm/10.25", penny 28cm/11", buckle 50cm/19.75", US Quarter 27cm/10.5".................................................

Miner John 12x8 folded mono. 1 grain 3cm/1.25", 5 cents 25cm/10", 3 pence 20cm/8", 0.5g coin 15cm/6" 1/ sov. 28cm/11", penny 31cm/12",
Buckle 47cm/18.5", US Quarter 26cm/10.25"...................................................................

Miner John 11 x 7 mono. 1 grain 2cm/.75", Au 5 cents 24cm/9.5", 3 pence 17cm/6.75", 0.5g coin 15cm/6", 1/2 Sov. 25cm/10", penny 31cm/12", Buckle 47cm/18.5", US Quarter 26cm/10.25"........................................................

Detech 11x6 mono. 1 grain 4cm/1.5", 5cents 25cm/10", 3 pence 18cm/7", o.5g gold coin 18cm/7", 1/2 Sov. 28cm/11", penny 29cm/11.5",
buckle 47cm/18.5", US Quarter 26cm/10.25".........................................................................



1 grain Detech 11 x 6 mono at 4cm/1.5"
5 cents Detech 15 x 10 mono at 29cm/11.5"
3 pence Miner John 12 x 8 mono at 20cm/8"
0.5 gram gold coin four coils at 18cm. Detech 11x7 and 15x10, Whites mono and Duelfields.
1/2 Sovereign gold coin. Digger 14x8 mono at 30cm/12"
Australian penny. Draw with Digger 14x8mono and Detech 15x10 mono both at 33cm/13".
White's Buckle. Detech 15x10 mono at 54cm/21".
US Quarter/25cents. All the coils almost equal since best at 27cm/10.5", worst 26cm/10.25".

The smaller coils seem to offer good small target performance combined with decent depth on larger targets. Bigger coils offer better depth on larger targets, so no real surprises.. Again hope this helps.
All the best,
Karelian




Re: Coiltek 6" Mono Tdi coil test against NF Sadie, Miner John 6" folded mono, White's 150 etc..
Posted by: doc holiday232
Date: March 31, 2017 09:11AM
Karelian, Thanks for your efforts and reports. Really useful info. Good luck to you.

Re: Coiltek 6" Mono Tdi coil test against NF Sadie, Miner John 6" folded mono, White's 150 etc..
Posted by: mntnflyr4fun
Date: March 31, 2017 12:08PM
I took the liberty of putting the results of all Mr. Karelians hard work into a spreadsheet so I could look at the results in different ways. (Hope K doesn't mind..) and thought I would share.
Anyway, the two pics here are all his results sorted by relative coil size (all elliptical sizes converted to round dia. by adding length + width /2, and by Total Depth achieved...ie. added all the depth results for each coil on each target =total depth

I have also sorted by each target type but didn't post as I didn't want to clutter things up, if anyone is interested in more pics, let me know....and am looking at other ways to look at the data if anyone has any ideas.........

Once again many thanks to Mr. Karelian, I hope he doesn't mind me sharing his hard earned data....

If you find any errors let me know as during the editing I could easily fat finger a few.....:unsure:



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2017 12:24PM by mntnflyr4fun.




Re: Coiltek 6" Mono Tdi coil test against NF Sadie, Miner John 6" folded mono, White's 150 etc..
Posted by: karelian
Date: March 31, 2017 07:41PM
I don't mind in the least. I congratulate you on a job well done. Very user friendly format.
All the best,
Karelian

Re: Coiltek 6" Mono Tdi coil test against NF Sadie, Miner John 6" folded mono, White's 150 etc..
Posted by: roadapple
Date: April 01, 2017 12:37AM
Karelian,

Thanks again for all your hard work and time taken to help all of us out with the questions we all have wondered about each advantages of the available coils to the TDI machines !!!!
Greatly .... Thanks again and look forward to your postings of gold prospecting in OZ,
Roadapple

Re: Coiltek 6" Mono Tdi coil test against NF Sadie, Miner John 6" folded mono, White's 150 etc..
Posted by: mntnflyr4fun
Date: April 02, 2017 03:36AM
Gold Target coil performance, top coils by depth

Also, in looking at some of Karelians data, I found it interesting that the Whites 12" OZ coil never exceeded the performance of the Whites Dual Field 12" coil in any test. The Dual field outperformed the OZ by 1/2" on the 1gn gold target, and then they performed identically for all the remaining targets gold and non gold alike. My understanding was that the the OZ coil was designed to handle that Aussie ground better, but possibly that means it runs quieter, not necessarily deeper?




Re: Coiltek 6" Mono Tdi coil test against NF Sadie, Miner John 6" folded mono, White's 150 etc..
Posted by: Jim in Idaho
Date: April 02, 2017 09:39AM
Quote
mntnflyr4fun
Gold Target coil performance, top coils by depth

Also, in looking at some of Karelians data, I found it interesting that the Whites 12" OZ coil never exceeded the performance of the Whites Dual Field 12" coil in any test. The Dual field outperformed the OZ by 1/2" on the 1gn gold target, and then they performed identically for all the remaining targets gold and non gold alike. My understanding was that the the OZ coil was designed to handle that Aussie ground better, but possibly that means it runs quieter, not necessarily deeper?
At somewhat of a tangent to this, In the area I'm working, I haven't found any small coil that works better than the White's 7.5" Dual-Field either, though I'm still trying other small coils. Like others, I really appreciate the work Karelian put into this testing. It saved us all a ton of time and money.
Jim

Re: Coiltek 6" Mono Tdi coil test against NF Sadie, Miner John 6" folded mono, White's 150 etc..
Posted by: John(Tx)
Date: April 02, 2017 09:03PM
Stephen, do you know how much heavier the 14x8 is over the 12 stock coil and how much deeper? thanks

Re: Coiltek 6" Mono Tdi coil test against NF Sadie, Miner John 6" folded mono, White's 150 etc..
Posted by: stephenscool
Date: April 02, 2017 10:12PM
Quote
John(Tx)
Stephen, do you know how much heavier the 14x8 is over the 12 stock coil and how much deeper? thanks
I have 2 of the 14x8 coils. The white 1 is foam filled and the weight is ridiculously low. Much lighter than the 12". Great for wetsand and up to shin deep.
The other 14x8 has a heavier epoxy designed for water hunting.(black coil)

Re: Coiltek 6" Mono Tdi coil test against NF Sadie, Miner John 6" folded mono, White's 150 etc..
Posted by: mntnflyr4fun
Date: April 04, 2017 12:26PM
Well, I am not sure anyone else cares, but I just couldn't help myself but to try and see if there were any stories to be told by comparing Karelians air test data to the ground test data. Karelains hard work and thorough test has certainly convinced me that you can't tell "SQUAT" from any air testing of any coil, other than maybe that the coil is working. The data Karelian mined during his test shows that there is really no correlation between an air test and what any given coil or size/design of coil will do in the ground.

The only thing I see here is that the smaller the target used to air test, the more depth it will lose when you actually use it to search for targets in the ground. and that no coils get better depth than the air test when actually put to use. Other than that, the air test depth correlated to an in ground test is all over the map.

I suppose that the data might look different in terms of how much depth you will lose if you did this test in a different level of mineralization, but I would expect that overall the results would be the same, just different numbers. I would expect VLF test might also look similar and so will assume the same about VLF coils until somebody takes the time to do something as thorough as Karelain did to prove otherwise.

I always understood there was going to be a performance diff. between air/ground performance but had no idea how much difference there would be, and so I watched utube air test videos and thought wow those are great performing coils, but wasn't calibrated on how much losses i could expect to see when put to real world use. Well the Karelian data lifted the veil for me and the bride is ugly.....air test to a car and you might find a car at the same max depth otherwise???????????

Unless I am missing something here, it looks pretty clear cut. Thanks again to Karelian for providing this data, guess I better get on with building that test garden I have been planning for 10 years....

These are all processed high quality gold targets.
AT = Air Test
GT = In Ground Test




Re: Coiltek 6" Mono Tdi coil test against NF Sadie, Miner John 6" folded mono, White's 150 etc..
Posted by: Jim in Idaho
Date: April 04, 2017 09:05PM
I imagine the amount of ground mineralization has a big effect on the loss of depth. As I understand it, Australia has tough soil conditions, so the loss may not be as bad in the US. I appreciate the chart....great stuff!
Jim

Re: Coiltek 6" Mono Tdi coil test against NF Sadie, Miner John 6" folded mono, White's 150 etc..
Posted by: karelian
Date: April 04, 2017 11:01PM
It is a sad fact that nuggets inhabit the worst soils which often challenge both machine and operator.. yet we persist.

All the best,
Karelian

Re: Coiltek 6" Mono Tdi coil test against NF Sadie, Miner John 6" folded mono, White's 150 etc..
Posted by: doc holiday232
Date: April 05, 2017 09:36AM
Thanks Again to all you guys who took the time and talent to show us Slackers what we have always "wondered" about. SALUTE.

Re: Coiltek 6" Mono Tdi coil test against NF Sadie, Miner John 6" folded mono, White's 150 etc..
Posted by: mntnflyr4fun
Date: April 05, 2017 11:08AM
I added a column to this air/gnd test data after looking at the extreme spread between the coil air test depth readings, and found an interesting tidbit I overlooked earlier just made for pondering.

Three coils all had an extreme spread of under 10% while others ran as high as 55%.

2 out of the 3 most consistent results were MinerJohn coils and 3 out of 4 most consistent coils were from MJ. Does MJ have a secret sauce or is it just coincidence? Also, all the lowest extreme spreads came from smaller coils.

I wonder if air could be considered the mildest of soils and OZ the hottest of soils and everywhere else somewhere in between. If so then does it matter to us that a coil manufacturers coils would display such high relative consistency? It makes me wonder if that indicates a general depth consistency for a coil that you might use in mild soils and also in hot soils vs some other design, potentially giving a user a more consistent result in differing ground conditions?

For instance without considering consistency, as you are swinging your coil and the ground mineralization is swinging wildly as you go then it would seem your depth performance is changing as well. If your coil has a more consistent operating range, not as affected by mineralization changes then during your hunt, you should find more targets as the depth capability of your coil remains more stable while the ground changes under it.

Just wondering out loud, as it seems to me that when someone (in this case Karelian) puts so much effort into developing all this information it deserves a good look, and when I also see a ponderable and all this particular data being about high value gold targets it seemed worth thinking about.

Maybe someone who knows alot more about coil performance will see this and chime in.
If not, it was fun tinkering with his data anyway.......

AT= air test GT= ground test




Re: Coiltek 6" Mono Tdi coil test against NF Sadie, Miner John 6" folded mono, White's 150 etc..
Posted by: Jim in Idaho
Date: April 05, 2017 05:26PM
I see where you're going with that idea. It does make a certain amount of sense. The biggest thing your charts do for me is show how the ground shrinks the differences in depth of the coils. you look at an air test and see a 1" difference on a 1 grain target. Then, you look at the ground test and you're only seeing a 1/2" difference. You might buy the better coil at a 1" difference, but for only a 1/2" you might decide it isn't worth the expenditure.
Another factor that enters into all this is the type of soil minerals. The effect of the soil probably isn't consistent. Maybe some soil has more magnetite. Or another conductive mineral that isn't magnetic. Some coils may be more sensitive to particular minerals in a particular soil. it may be that chasing after what looks like the ulitmate coil, based on one test over one soil type, may be a losing proposition. No way to tell without enormous expenditures of time, effort, and money to do a whole series of tests over different soil types, and locations. That's one reason a particular detector may be he cat's a-- in one place, and not do especially well on another location. Same probably goes for coils.
In any case, your charts definitely make it easier to see all this stuff, and I for one, appreciate the work you did.
Jim

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