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What are you missing on the surface!
Posted by: hairymonsterman
Date: May 29, 2017 11:47AM
F19, a 3" nail and a dime.
Set the distance between nail and dime at half the width of your coil.
https://youtu.be/FuAgx2Dyj2w

Re: What are you missing on the surface!
Posted by: El
Date: May 29, 2017 04:14PM
Interesting. What coil were you using?

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Re: What are you missing on the surface!
Posted by: dfmike
Date: May 29, 2017 06:14PM
Looks like a NEL Hunter to me. Do you have the stock 5 X 10 or 5" round coil to try ? I'd like to see the test done with those just for kicks. If you carefully look at the ID when you swing over both, can you get a high ID from time to time ? There's so many things we just can't get because of masking.

I remember seeing another video on youtube where somebody had hidden clad coins with trash and the 5" round coil was the only one that could "see" or separate all targets. I can't find the link unfortunately.



Active detectors: Fisher F5 , Fisher F19 LTD, Nokta Fors CoRe, Makro pointer and way too many coils.
Previous detectors: Bounty Hunter Discovery, Fisher F44, Omega 8000 V6, Minelab X-Terra 705



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2017 06:18PM by dfmike.

Re: What are you missing on the surface!
Posted by: hairymonsterman
Date: May 30, 2017 04:43AM
It's the Nel Hunter coil, 12.5"x8.5"
Because its catching the nail with the edge of the coil just as the centre of the coil is on the dime, the machine can't cope.
It's a decent enough machine but it's lacking in many ways compared to faster, better separation detectors.

Re: What are you missing on the surface!
Posted by: D&P-OR
Date: May 31, 2017 06:47PM
Oh?? What are the "many ways" the F-19 is lacking in?---And what "faster, better separation detectors" are you referring to?
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hairymonsterman
It's the Nel Hunter coil, 12.5"x8.5"
Because its catching the nail with the edge of the coil just as the centre of the coil is on the dime, the machine can't cope.
It's a decent enough machine but it's lacking in many ways compared to faster, better separation detectors.


Re: What are you missing on the surface!
Posted by: hairymonsterman
Date: June 01, 2017 05:16AM
I'll give you an example of the Rutus Alter 71, mainly because i'm running both machines at the moment and they fall in the same price bracket here in the UK, with the F19 around £25 more expensive. There is a variation in coil size, F19 with 12.5"x8.5" and the Rutus with 11" round, so maybe a slight advantage to the F19 here.
Im running the F19 with v-break at 65, midway between the conductivity of the targets so it has to jump between tones.
The Rutus initially in 2 tone breaking at a 3" nail, then in 120 tones.
The F19 does very well with an average sweep, then drops to maybe 2 or 3 targets when sweep is increased.
The Rutus in 120 tones, no matter how fast you sweep doesn't miss a target.
I'm not beating on the F19 or trying to score points, it's no slouch, and it's not likely you'd need to swing either at that speed, it's only a demo, but the speed of the Rutus is exceptional, and being able to adjust the reactivity to suit conditions is a real benefit.
https://youtu.be/ZnAzn5dbTRc



Quote
D&P-OR
Oh?? What are the "many ways" the F-19 is lacking in?---And what "faster, better separation detectors" are you referring to?
Quote
hairymonsterman
It's the Nel Hunter coil, 12.5"x8.5"
Because its catching the nail with the edge of the coil just as the centre of the coil is on the dime, the machine can't cope.
It's a decent enough machine but it's lacking in many ways compared to faster, better separation detectors.


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a similar test that shows very different results
Posted by: dfmike
Date: June 01, 2017 02:45PM
I've searched for some youtube vids and I found one that seems to show a very similar test as yours where the F19 does great, in fact it does more than great. I'm not sure what is going on with your F19, your coil or your settings but his results are quite different from yours. Take a look at this from Hunter GT. First at 11:25, single nail right next to a dime with the stock 5 x 10 then at 12:15, 2 nails touching the coin on either side and then finally at 13:05, one nail test but this time with the 5 inch round coil.

Part 1 shows a cool test as well if you want to look:

https://youtu.be/J2LkYQ87tUA



Active detectors: Fisher F5 , Fisher F19 LTD, Nokta Fors CoRe, Makro pointer and way too many coils.
Previous detectors: Bounty Hunter Discovery, Fisher F44, Omega 8000 V6, Minelab X-Terra 705

Re: a similar test that shows very different results
Posted by: hairymonsterman
Date: June 01, 2017 03:50PM
Thanks mike, yes my F19 will react similar to the hunters in that senario, your only asking it to jump 2 ID numbers say for example ID 20-80-20, but using the exact same settings, if i try the mixed conductor test it starts to get it tight as you speed up the sweep.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2017 03:52PM by hairymonsterman.

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Re: What are you missing on the surface!
Posted by: TheHunterGT
Date: June 02, 2017 12:17AM
#1....the NEL Hunter is easily their worst coil. Not sure I have ever seen a positive remark about one. From what I read and hear - the SharpShooter and Thunder are both FAR superior coils.

#2....F19 is set to 65 vbreak...while the Rutus is set to break at nails in disc (no vbreak). Meaning the multi-conductor test is all below the disc point on the Rutus...while half the conductors are under/above the breakpoint on the F19.

Seems like a test with settings made to trumpet the Rutus...and set the F19 up for failure.

F19 passes this test TOUCHING the nail when set properly....and will easily pass the multi-conductor test with the vbreak UNDER all targets like the Rutus is setup.

Slow the video down to .5 speed in the Youtube settings and you will hear the Rutus missing 2-3 targets on some sweeps. Set the break under the targets on the F19 and I can almost guarantee 7 solid hits at the same speed.

Re: What are you missing on the surface!
Posted by: hairymonsterman
Date: June 02, 2017 01:07AM
The test is actually set up much harder for the Rutus, to ask a machine to audably report several different tones, while asking the F19 to report only 2 tones.

Here's the test with the settings you suggest, V-break set to just above the nails at 35.
It easily passes the nail-coin-nail test, and a little better on the multi conductor test, but not near the Rutus speed even in 120 tones, set the Rutus like the F19 and it blows it away.
If folks have any other setting suggestions i'll give them a try as i'd like to get as much out of the F19 as possible.
https://youtu.be/wsFedwqU0Ew



Quote
TheHunterGT
#1....the NEL Hunter is easily their worst coil. Not sure I have ever seen a positive remark about one. From what I read and hear - the SharpShooter and Thunder are both FAR superior coils.

#2....F19 is set to 65 vbreak...while the Rutus is set to break at nails in disc (no vbreak). Meaning the multi-conductor test is all below the disc point on the Rutus...while half the conductors are under/above the breakpoint on the F19.

Seems like a test with settings made to trumpet the Rutus...and set the F19 up for failure.

F19 passes this test TOUCHING the nail when set properly....and will easily pass the multi-conductor test with the vbreak UNDER all targets like the Rutus is setup.

Slow the video down to .5 speed in the Youtube settings and you will hear the Rutus missing 2-3 targets on some sweeps. Set the break under the targets on the F19 and I can almost guarantee 7 solid hits at the same speed.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2017 01:32AM by hairymonsterman.

Re: What are you missing on the surface!
Posted by: hairymonsterman
Date: June 02, 2017 01:45AM
Here's another, nail-coin-nail overload!
Again the F19 does super well seeing the dime inbetween 8 nails, the Rutus just keeps on going at 12 nails, i'd have tried more but had no more nail handy.
Both machines were set to break tone on the nails and no more.

https://youtu.be/UBze7ZueJnQ

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D&P-OR
Oh?? What are the "many ways" the F-19 is lacking in?---And what "faster, better separation detectors" are you referring to?
Quote
hairymonsterman


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Re: What are you missing on the surface!
Posted by: TheHunterGT
Date: June 02, 2017 11:03AM
Patriot (F70)...T2...F75...XP Deus...all of them have 99 tones and all of them can unmask and separate better in certain scenarios compared to single/double/triple tone modes.

As far as getting more out of the F19 with that NEL Hunter on it....I doubt it will happen.

I think with the stock 5x10 or even the 11DD off a G2+....or even the NEL Sharpshooter......it does much better.

Rutus is using a stock coil wired perfectly for the unit. The F19 is using a mediocre reviewed coil that is a "catch all" from an aftermarket company.

Apples to oranges.

I will say I love tests like this...and enjoy the fact you are making them up. Kudos on that. Rutus is an impressive machine. I just think the F19 performs better than what that coil shows.

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Re: What are you missing on the surface!
Posted by: dfmike
Date: June 02, 2017 07:09PM
I'm definitely more of a newbie compared to you guys when it comes to understanding separation, unmasking, etc. but what I seem to get from the conversation is that if I hunt in a ferrous junkyard for silver coins for example I should lower the v-break instead of setting it high to better unmask the coins ? I usually set my v-break at 60 or more in trashy environments where the recent junk is higher than the underlying old coins. Those old coins never hit at below 70 on my F19 anyway and at that low number it's old copper coins. The silver coins have a much higher numerical value. Am I missing potential silver coins by setting my v-break that high in a typical trashy park or schoolyard ? Thanks.



Active detectors: Fisher F5 , Fisher F19 LTD, Nokta Fors CoRe, Makro pointer and way too many coils.
Previous detectors: Bounty Hunter Discovery, Fisher F44, Omega 8000 V6, Minelab X-Terra 705

Re: What are you missing on the surface!
Posted by: hairymonsterman
Date: June 03, 2017 04:16AM
The Rutus even with the large 11" coil is a very good performer, it also runs a nice 8" cc coil, and how they have managed to have these coils perform soo well over the span of frequencies from 4.4khz to 18.4khz is beyond me.
I like testing my machines to find there strengths /weakness so as i can find the right job for them.

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TheHunterGT
Patriot (F70)...T2...F75...XP Deus...all of them have 99 tones and all of them can unmask and separate better in certain scenarios compared to single/double/triple tone modes.

As far as getting more out of the F19 with that NEL Hunter on it....I doubt it will happen.

I think with the stock 5x10 or even the 11DD off a G2+....or even the NEL Sharpshooter......it does much better.

Rutus is using a stock coil wired perfectly for the unit. The F19 is using a mediocre reviewed coil that is a "catch all" from an aftermarket company.

Apples to oranges.

I will say I love tests like this...and enjoy the fact you are making them up. Kudos on that. Rutus is an impressive machine. I just think the F19 performs better than what that coil shows.


Re: What are you missing on the surface!
Posted by: hairymonsterman
Date: June 03, 2017 04:23AM
Personally, some of the sites i hunt have had 1000+ years of human habitation, here i'd be running v-break 30-32, no disc, volume 20. If i was to run with low tone audio off, or very low, over the 0-40 i'd be missing targets

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dfmike
I'm definitely more of a newbie compared to you guys when it comes to understanding separation, unmasking, etc. but what I seem to get from the conversation is that if I hunt in a ferrous junkyard for silver coins for example I should lower the v-break instead of setting it high to better unmask the coins ? I usually set my v-break at 60 or more in trashy environments where the recent junk is higher than the underlying old coins. Those old coins never hit at below 70 on my F19 anyway and at that low number it's old copper coins. The silver coins have a much higher numerical value. Am I missing potential silver coins by setting my v-break that high in a typical trashy park or schoolyard ? Thanks.


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