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Re: hunting in trash
Posted by: sube
Date: October 29, 2016 01:07PM
I hear what you're saying. I just haven't been able to figure out any logical or "technical" reason that changing the FE line of the combined audio would provide the varying results you encountered.

Just thinking out loud here......and asking all of you other CTX3030 users to feel free and chime in.......the FE/Conductive value of a target doesn't change when you alter your programs. The way we analyze them or interpret them might. But the FE and CO values of the target remain the same. In Bryan's scenario, since the audio response did change, something must have either changed in the manner the target signal was analyzed, or in the manner he was able to hear it.

In Bryan's examples.....when the bottom and top bins of the combined audio tone were separated at ferrous line 24, his detector had a degraded audio response on targets with a TID of 12 - 39. Not a chirp or blip. Nothing but low tones. We know that, with the horizontal line set at 24, a target with a ferrous value of 24 or less should be "sent" to one of the bins above the combined audio horizontal line. And when a target is "sent" above that horizontal combined audio line, the tone you hear will be based on the conductive value. Which conductive tone you hear will depend on how you set the audio tones in each of the conductive bins. For the sake of argument, lets say Bryan had his CTX set up to send a 39 conductive to one of the upper bins on the right hand side. In that regard, unless something interfered with the target analysis or the audio response, that target should have been sent to a bin above the line and to the right side. And, with the minimal amount of discrimination he was using,(just the FE 35 line and a few boxes in the lower right hand corner of the screen) he should have heard the tone associated with that bin. Based on his description, I'd suggest that would be a high tone. For reasons yet unknown, when he changed his combined audio horizontal line to FE 32, he got a strong audio high tone on the targets with a TID of 12-39. That makes sense because when you detect a target with an FE value smaller than where you have the combined audio horizontal line, the target should go to one of the bins above that line.

So why does his audio response "go away" when he uses Combined audio with the horizontal line at 24......but is loud and clear when he moves that horizontal line on Combined audio to 32? Since he was running with minimal discrimination, the CTX3030 should not have discriminated out the target with a TID of 12-39, regardless of whether the combined audio horizontal line was set at 24 or 32. In both situations, the target shouldould have been sent to one of the conductive bins for the audio response associated with that bin. (you will get a tone for that target, as long as the bin don't include rejected target ID #s for the specific target). Since the target FE/CO value did not change, and since the only thing changed was the horizontal line in his Combined audio settings, it seems to me that either the target signal was altered, or the audio response was masked, when he used the 24 line.

Bryan....could you check your two programs to make sure ALL of the other settings are the same, except for the placement of the Combined audio horizontal line? Specifically check for discrimination blocks, Target Separation mode, parameters of each bin and the tones assigned to each bin. I'm wondering if there could be something different between the programs that could be altering the audio response of your target, not necessarily the ability of the CTX to detect the target. Without knowing what appeared on the screen with each program, I hesitate to venture a guess. Another suggestion I would have would be to eliminate ALL of the discrimination and see if you get the same results in both of your programs with all targets accepted. Hang in there, there are folks on this forum who help us figure this out. HH Randy

Randy I know what is happening ,Try this test -0- (- meaning nail 0 meaning coin - meaning nail ) Put the nails and coin on the ground 1/8 inch apart ferrous line set to 32 I prefer 35 but just put it at 32 okay ,Now disc out the nails31 to 35 so we don't hear the nails . You will get a high tone okay,
Now set the ferrous line to 24 you well get a low tone no-dig signal .

The reason being is if you switch to high trash and run the same pattern except your in high trash and in conduct 4 tone now that coin with the nails well id at 27.45 to 29.45 which is the true spot where the coin well read on the screen. You have to have the 31 to 35 line disc out otherwise you well get 3 high tones

If you sweep the nails and coin east to west your id well be in the 27.45 to 29.45 area , if you sweep north and south it well build a trace at 12.39 to 12.41 because it's trying to push it to the 12 line . This is ferrous coin combine

Know in 4 tone conduct east west will try to build at the 27.45 to 29.45 area north south id well lock on in this area with a cursor .

I was using 3 inch nails size matters and well change where the cursor lands .

i:m trying to make a video on this and I'm half done .

I have been running conduct and combine at the same time you can see in my post where I was going back and forth where i said combine does not work as it suppose to but it does you have to disc the nails out other wise you well get low high low where as the nails disc out you well only get the high .

But the ferrous line has to be set below the 29 line otherwise you well get low low low because that coin comes in at 27.45 to 29.45 which is it's true id mixed with nails .

Now a nickel will up average with the iron it well read 27.30 to 29.35 in high trash 4 tone conduct same as ferrous coin combine but when swept north south ferrous coin combine well try to build a curser on the 12 line or above where as high trash 4 tone conduct will build it at 27.30 to 29.40 .

Randy the fe and co # change when the target is mixed with iron because there so close together it is looking at them as one. As far as the target being degraded it really is not because a coin with nails is giving you it's true fe and co #s :thumbup: sube I have a theory on how minelab set up the fe co# s you see in the stock pattern where the fe line is set to I think 20 or 21 this is where all targets with iron come in at ( that minelab was sure there was a coin with iron or other good non ferrous item ) Put it this way that 21. 45 was going to 90 percent coin or other good object another words a no brain er . That was given a high tone .

Now compare it to a 29.45 a lot harder to decipher so minelab wants to make all targets go low at 22.45 to 35 .45 and all targets go high at (21.45 to 12.45 go high these are no brain er iron coin or other good target combos okay)

As you notice if minelab was to set there factory program fe line to 35 and have everything go high with iron people would be going crazy .

Now it's great to be able to adjust your fe line to 35 but your going to get more highs and more falsing with nails this is where skill comes in .

But with that fe line set at 21 your not going to hear a high tone for a 22.45 to 35 .45 when a coin is tight with iron where that coin signal is mixed with iron and say it's true reading on the fe and conductive side is
27.45

Now nails are not the same you have friendly nails these nails will disc out no problem east west and north south . then you have what I call bastard nails that will disc out east and west but high tone north and south.

A nail laying east west is easy to disc out but when north south some nails you can't disc out ( bastard nail ) But by knowing what to look for switching from ferrous coin combine to 4 tone conduct you will be able to disc these out by audio and what the cursor is doing on the screen.( most of them )

My video will show this also disc out the last 3 lines on the right side will cure some bastard nails from 12.48 12.49 and 12.50 from the 12 line down to the 35 line. People will ask why disc these out (i would say what have you found here)

But since we can go below the 21 line we can analize and see if we can make a coin stand out at 29.45 . I like that because there are more targets here than clean hit's left .

I'm trying to get this video out so give me some time :thumbup: sube



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2016 01:34PM by sube.

Re: hunting in trash
Posted by: sube
Date: October 30, 2016 07:32PM
https://youtu.be/bkSWa2FNQU4 Couple correction from the video I said 16 fo fe line in high trash it's at 20 also on the first dime nail combo I said high trash was falsing it's not there's a high and low in there.

I have all my modes set the same except pattern 2 in ferrous coin combine is open my user key for high trash combine pattern 2 the fe line is set to 20.

Sill can check targets in high trash combine pattern 1

The fe line got me testing again tried ferrous coin combine with fe line at 13 did not matter still high toned on falses.

Now this fe line of 20 can be added to low trash high trash and ground coin to check falsing in ferrous coin all work the same. all modes are combine

One other thing with the block in the corner I think the half being throw en up on the 12 line is why it did not show and the low conductors were a grunt that's why they didn't show another words they went to the 35 line ?

The 2 nail thing also works with one nail :thumbup: sube



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2016 07:55PM by sube.

Re: hunting in trash
Posted by: sube
Date: November 03, 2016 09:16PM
https://youtu.be/p-IZe2OImwE This video shows a low tone with a nail and how to pinpoint .

Re: hunting in trash
Posted by: sube
Date: November 05, 2016 09:16PM
https://youtu.be/p-eMkyblvG0 I purposely left this out of the last video to see if anyone would hear the high when in open screen no one said anything . It's hard to hear but if you know what to listen for you can hear it .

Now I know from testing all 32 to 35 go low ferrous #s all 48 to 50 conductive #s go low , Can you get a coin at 32.44 to 33.47 yes but it well go low this is where the iron has killed the signal also many nails read here so your going to dig nails . On a hit like this I only cross check the target to see if it goe's high.

Now all targets 31 to 1 ferrous #s will go high if not disc out all conductive # from 47 to 1 can go high if not disc out only targets with 32 to 35 ferrous # in front of these will go low .

So I will ask what will you get by being in open screen as compared to adding the disc your not going to get a high from 32 to 35 conductive #s all go low disc or no disc .

In these test coil has to be on the ground dragging if you don't depth will only be shallow but I had no problem with the 6 or stock at 8 inches in my dirt .

I have another follow up video on this to show you more .:thumbup: sube

Re: hunting in trash
Posted by: sube
Date: November 16, 2016 04:51AM
https://youtu.be/L-O61UbDKMw This is how far I have got using target trace , I use this when checking targets but can be used to hunt in the null where no other detector can hunt .

I have seen the mx sport video looks good but it's doing what most detectors can do when the coin is not total mask look at the short nails he uses they do not extend pass the quarter when they do you get no audio a null .

I have a set of rules I follow hunting in the null .

#1 cross that target first hear anything if it's a coin and laying with a nail or other iron and it high tones go by tones .

#2 Check that bottom curser is it coming out and is not hard in the corner , All signals that have a conduct reading of 48 to 50 are iron falses all ferrous readings of 32 to 35 are going to low tone . When that signals come of that 35 line and go higher 34 to 32 are a clue you have something with that iron also all signals that read 46 to 40 and so on conduct #s are also a clue you have a coin with the iron or any higher conductive target . Remember all targets 32 to 35 will low tone .

#3 To get a curser to display you have to sweep the whole target from left to right if you only sweep the coin part the curser will not appear as often .

#4 Now pinpoint sizing also builds better sweeping the full length of the target and is harder and inconsistent when just on the coin .

You can use this to hunt in the null but most have patients or to check targets that are high toning and low toning at the same time .

I like trash finders video he knows there something there :thumbup: but the hardest part of all of this is understanding what the iron is doing . There are coins so well mask that the ctx will not see them either .

I urge you to get a sand box and practice you will see how far you can push this it is amazing how much iron you can have with a coin and still get it ,But it will be no audio . :thumbup:sube

Re: hunting in trash
Posted by: sube
Date: November 19, 2016 07:43PM
https://youtu.be/sfLYK56epLE This well show what happens when the nail or ground takes over the conductive response .

Water hunters can benefit from this to same as land hunters .

If you watch my other videos you can see where the iron is covering the trace area where the coin is coming in the higher conductors

Now I have added 13.47 down to 35.47 to get rid of high toning on my second screen .

Settings ferrous coin combine
auto +3
gain 30
fast on
sound normal
trace enabled in pinpoint sizing and target trace hunting mode
Fe line 34

second pattern the same except 32 to 35 line disc out and 13.47 to 13.50 down to 35.47 to 35.50 right side this is where your high tone falses happen they also happen from 12.37 to 12.46 down to 35.37 to35.46 we can't get rid of these but we did get rid of half the noise .sube

Re: hunting in trash
Posted by: sube
Date: December 17, 2016 08:12PM
https://youtu.be/eJZTaam2YZ8 This is a video on audio falsing .

It will show how to tell if it's a good target or iron target.

Re: hunting in trash
Posted by: PhilNDirt
Date: December 19, 2016 12:15PM
Outstanding with both the video and technical explanations. Thanks to both of you !

Philip
SW Virginia

Re: hunting in trash
Posted by: mcb613
Date: May 24, 2017 07:28AM
Hey Sube, havent been following much these days, bit wanted to ask your current position on the Target Trace line leadering off at say 11 oclock , from the iron area.
Last couple reads, seems like you have gotten away from that theory???
I employed that a few times to nonprevail, but just checking with you on it.
Thanks,
Mike

Re: hunting in trash
Posted by: sube
Date: May 26, 2017 06:02AM
Quote
mcb613
Hey Sube, havent been following much these days, bit wanted to ask your current position on the Target Trace line leadering off at say 11 o'clock , from the iron area.
Last couple reads, seems like you have gotten away from that theory???
I employed that a few times to nonprevail, but just checking with you on it.
Thanks,
Mike

No as to theory I showed you what the machine can do that trace going to the 11 o'clock is most likely using high trash low thrash and ground coin not so much in ferrous coin it tends to leave it on the 12 line. that is why I chose to run ferrous coin .
Now I have learned some other things about falsing since these videos which may help in determining a nail from coin in my video on falsing when you get a thrown false the #s are 12.37 to 12.41 or there about's now as you go to pinpoint and get draw en to the real target your #s well shift to 12.46 to 12.50 now the nail has show en two sets of #s where a coins #s would be much more stable and not deviate so much just another way of verifying it's a coin or a nail .



I nave been working on my next video showing what a silent hit looks like in the field where target trace is your only clue and no audio works been a bear but hope to get done soon .sube

Re: hunting in trash
Posted by: mcb613
Date: May 26, 2017 06:25AM
So , is ground coun and 11 o'clock target trace still valid? Or is more evolution making invalid?
Appreciate the help. Going to a 1700s church today that is real trashy with iron.
Thx

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