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Re: Freq's
Posted by: IDXMonster
Date: December 29, 2017 07:55AM
Quote
amberjack
not much difference :lmfao:

AJ

Right...:lol: This might be a Size/surface area factor by which machines are “fooled”,though they are reporting exactly what they are designed to report.

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Re: Freq's
Posted by: Architex
Date: December 29, 2017 10:49AM
As you know, detectors don't work on chemical valence, atomic weight or density. They work on conductivity. Aluminum and silver, and clad for that matter, are similar in conductivity and that's the problem we have.



The real treasure is in the marketing.

XP Deus / CTX 3030 / Equinox 800

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Re: Freq's
Posted by: amberjack
Date: December 29, 2017 05:06PM
here is silver..

yes conductivity is a factor but size and shape play a bigger part than we may realize..

detectors are good at finding constant size & metal types , the problem comes in when inconstancy arises and why we are still only at the beginning of detection technology in telling us what the metal is which no detector can do today. I.E a detector can not say 80% gold 20% silver and why people say today that eyes are the best discrimination and then still are far from reliable in many cases.

so while coin shooting maybe easy in most cases, detecting anything else is just a lot of digging that's why today beep dig detectors still sell and sill find as much inconstant items as top of the range..

this post is based on my experience yours may differ.

AJ



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2017 05:07PM by amberjack.




Re: Freq's
Posted by: budster
Date: December 29, 2017 05:20PM
If we can tell what the atmosphere on a moon of Pluto is comprised of you would think that some smart inventor would come up with a way to be able to tell the difference between gold and aluminum. :clapping:

Re: Freq's
Posted by: TomNH
Date: December 29, 2017 05:58PM
Quote
budster
If we can tell what the atmosphere on a moon of Pluto is comprised of you would think that some smart inventor would come up with a way to be able to tell the difference between gold and aluminum. :clapping:

COST ! Even if it were possible.

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Re: Freq's
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: December 29, 2017 06:27PM
Quote
Architex
As you know, detectors don't work on chemical valence, atomic weight or density. They work on conductivity. Aluminum and silver, and clad for that matter, are similar in conductivity and that's the problem we have.

I just have to believe, Architex, that there is SOMETHING there, that is potentially exploitable. Obviously, as you rightly point out, when speaking of an aluminum tab as compared to a gold ring for instance, a detector's transmitted EM energy induces VERY SIMILAR eddy currents in both objects, such that both objects are then re-emitting EM energy back to the machine with VERY similar properties. And thus, they look "the same" to the detector, for all intents and purposes.

BUT -- I cannot believe that it is impossible to invent some "discriminator" of some sort, so that the user could switch into a different mode, or a different "setting," sort of like hitting the pinpoint button...something that SPECIFICALLY was designed to answer the "is it gold," or "is it can slaw or a tab or a beaver tail" question. It may not be something that can be done in "real time," in regular "detect" mode, but I really think that there ought to be some way such that ONCE you locate a target that registers "in the gold range," in your "normal detecting mode," that -- using some heretofore undiscovered (or at least not yet perfected) approach -- the detectorist could stop, and then "interrogate" that target in this "other" mode, or setting, or whatever. Again -- sort of like switching into "pinpoint mode," once you locate a target of interest. Perhaps a button or a trigger that you could hit, that totally changes what the machine is doing -- i.e. a specific "gold vs. aluminum" discriminator mode.

I THINK (could be wrong, as I've never swung a White's V3i) that some folks claim that analyzing a target in question with the three different frequencies that the V3i utilizes, and then analyzing the responses from EACH frequency, gives a savvy user some fairly decent "clues" regarding the gold vs. aluminum question. I just have an inkling that there are things there that could be "exploited"...differences between how aluminum targets respond to various different EM transmissions, vs. how gold responds to various different EM transmissions, which could be exploited to allow some "discrimination" to take place. I really believe that there's a chance that if a team of really smart people focused on this, that through use of a statistical approach, or regression analysis...something....that it would be possible to find a relatively accurate relationship between changing certain "transmission" characteristics, and then figuring out what "receive" characteristics are correlated with which target, the gold ring or the pull tab.

Just to give a "pull this out of my rear end, completely fabricated" example of roughly the type of thing I'm envisioning. Let's talk about the Equinox 800's five frequencies. If you switched into this "pinpoint-like" mode, that is your "gold vs. aluminum" discriminator, now a whole new set of processes/transmissions occur within the machine, and a whole new set of algorithms go to work, as you take repeated, small sweeps of the target, circling around the full 360 degrees of the target in question. And let's say that what is happening, is that the machine is transmitting in some sequential order all five of the frequencies, from 5 to 40. And let's say that in the lab, during development, Minelab's engineers had discovered, through statistical methods or regression analysis or some other mathematical approach, that aluminum responds in "x" way when "illuminated" by each of the five frequencies, while gold will respond in "y" way -- and they have built that into this "gold vs. aluminum" mode. The user would then have some information to help "determine" whether to dig that target, or not. Even if it was only 80% reliable, or 50%, or even 30%, that's still something that I can't IMAGINE isn't at least theoretically possible. And again, it might not exactly be a "comparison between the different frequencies" approach; it could be something very different, but still -- something that would be do-able within a VLF-IB platform. SOMETHING...

To me, THIS is something that could be looked into, that could be possibly paradigm-changing. Maybe Minelab (or whomever) could hook up with the geniuses at Google, or maybe take a crowd-sourcing approach...SOMETHING. But I really do feel this is something that might be able to be done.

ANYWAY, didn't mean to ramble, or derail anything. Just some random musings. And now back to our regularly scheduled program (thread)!

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

Re: Freq's
Posted by: Rich (Utah)
Date: December 29, 2017 07:43PM
Quote
sgoss66
I just have to believe, Architex, that there is SOMETHING there, that is potentially exploitable. Obviously, as you rightly point out, when speaking of an aluminum tab as compared to a gold ring for instance, a detector's transmitted EM energy induces VERY SIMILAR eddy currents in both objects, such that both objects are then re-emitting EM energy back to the machine with VERY similar properties. And thus, they look "the same" to the detector, for all intents and purposes.

BUT -- I cannot believe that it is impossible to invent some "discriminator" of some sort, so that the user could switch into a different mode, or a different "setting," sort of like hitting the pinpoint button...something that SPECIFICALLY was designed to answer the "is it gold," or "is it can slaw or a tab or a beaver tail" question. It may not be something that can be done in "real time," in regular "detect" mode, but I really think that there ought to be some way such that ONCE you locate a target that registers "in the gold range," in your "normal detecting mode," that -- using some heretofore undiscovered (or at least not yet perfected) approach -- the detectorist could stop, and then "interrogate" that target in this "other" mode, or setting, or whatever. Again -- sort of like switching into "pinpoint mode," once you locate a target of interest. Perhaps a button or a trigger that you could hit, that totally changes what the machine is doing -- i.e. a specific "gold vs. aluminum" discriminator mode.

I THINK (could be wrong, as I've never swung a White's V3i) that some folks claim that analyzing a target in question with the three different frequencies that the V3i utilizes, and then analyzing the responses from EACH frequency, gives a savvy user some fairly decent "clues" regarding the gold vs. aluminum question. I just have an inkling that there are things there that could be "exploited"...differences between how aluminum targets respond to various different EM transmissions, vs. how gold responds to various different EM transmissions, which could be exploited to allow some "discrimination" to take place. I really believe that there's a chance that if a team of really smart people focused on this, that through use of a statistical approach, or regression analysis...something....that it would be possible to find a relatively accurate relationship between changing certain "transmission" characteristics, and then figuring out what "receive" characteristics are correlated with which target, the gold ring or the pull tab.

Just to give a "pull this out of my rear end, completely fabricated" example of roughly the type of thing I'm envisioning. Let's talk about the Equinox 800's five frequencies. If you switched into this "pinpoint-like" mode, that is your "gold vs. aluminum" discriminator, now a whole new set of processes/transmissions occur within the machine, and a whole new set of algorithms go to work, as you take repeated, small sweeps of the target, circling around the full 360 degrees of the target in question. And let's say that what is happening, is that the machine is transmitting in some sequential order all five of the frequencies, from 5 to 40. And let's say that in the lab, during development, Minelab's engineers had discovered, through statistical methods or regression analysis or some other mathematical approach, that aluminum responds in "x" way when "illuminated" by each of the five frequencies, while gold will respond in "y" way -- and they have built that into this "gold vs. aluminum" mode. The user would then have some information to help "determine" whether to dig that target, or not. Even if it was only 80% reliable, or 50%, or even 30%, that's still something that I can't IMAGINE isn't at least theoretically possible. And again, it might not exactly be a "comparison between the different frequencies" approach; it could be something very different, but still -- something that would be do-able within a VLF-IB platform. SOMETHING...

To me, THIS is something that could be looked into, that could be possibly paradigm-changing. Maybe Minelab (or whomever) could hook up with the geniuses at Google, or maybe take a crowd-sourcing approach...SOMETHING. But I really do feel this is something that might be able to be done.

ANYWAY, didn't mean to ramble, or derail anything. Just some random musings. And now back to our regularly scheduled program (thread)!

Steve


Steve, I was thinking about this same thing some weeks ago when the discussion came up about the 3.125kHz -25kHz pattern that Minelab is said to be using on the FBS detectors. 1 pulse of 3.125kHz followed by 8 pulses of 25kHz. Is there a pulse pattern of frequencies, like a musical chord, that would assist with revealing the metallic make up of a target?

Could the detector or operator then change that pattern to more accurately reveal what was beneath?

Makes for some good pondering anyway.

Rich -

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Re: Freq's
Posted by: Architex
Date: December 29, 2017 09:36PM
I'm not sure how gold got into this discussion. None of my detectors over 15 years have ever confused gold with aluminum. But every one has confused silver and clad with aluminum. But, speaking of Pluto, you give me 2 billion dollars, or whatever the Pluto mission cost, and I will guarantee a detector that will discriminate the brands of beer caps,all manner of good targets, and more. It may end up being too heavy to carry and it may cost $50,000.00/unit, but it will be made available.

And I won't announce it 6 months before I can deliver it (will probably be too heavy to drop from a plane). :rofl:



The real treasure is in the marketing.

XP Deus / CTX 3030 / Equinox 800

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Re: Freq's
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: December 29, 2017 10:00PM
Rich --

Agreed. I have to believe there are characteristics of the two targets that -- using technology already at work in VLF detectors -- could offer us some type of probabilistically "most likely" ID, gold vs. aluminum.

Architex --

I would like borrow your detectors for a little while...I have some trashy parks where your gold vs. aluminum-discriminating detectors would come in quite handy! ;)

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

Re: Freq's
Posted by: IDXMonster
Date: December 29, 2017 10:32PM
Quote
Architex
I'm not sure how gold got into this discussion. None of my detectors over 15 years have ever confused gold with aluminum. But every one has confused silver and clad with aluminum. But, speaking of Pluto, you give me 2 billion dollars, or whatever the Pluto mission cost, and I will guarantee a detector that will discriminate the brands of beer caps,all manner of good targets, and more. It may end up being too heavy to carry and it may cost $50,000.00/unit, but it will be made available.

And I won't announce it 6 months before I can deliver it (will probably be too heavy to drop from a plane). :rofl:

:lol::lol::lol: Just need a bigger plane man!

OK the original question was about silver vs aluminum. Sizing the target(talking about a can-type thing) is the only way I know to discern,besides the other telltale signs like the target breaking up,sounding bad coming off it,etc. You say none of your machines have a problem with gold vs aluminum...for real? Pop tops off of soda cans are the type of aluminum most are talking about I assume,as that’s my biggest reason for NOT hunting gold.
I don’t have a problem with silver vs aluminum because the aluminum that makes it into my discrimination pattern CANNOT be avoided.

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Re: Freq's
Posted by: amberjack
Date: December 30, 2017 02:09AM
its still a simple game detecting :biggrin: dig it all find it all, don't dig it all don't find it all ...

the greatest detecting tool is time and those who don't have time to dig it all have to trust their detector in order to cherry pick and so we have silver hunters and we have head down arse up dig it all crazy people who find some gold and miscellaneous items left behind by the silver hunters ...

so we have detectors like this one being made which are nice but are no substitute for hard work..

maybe in my next life I wont have to dig crap and there will be real advancements in detection ..who knows but all there is to work with now is what we have so we do our best right.

just as a foot note I have found some nice items gold etc.. that sounded like crap so you know if there's targets left we missed something.

AJ



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2017 02:10AM by amberjack.

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Re: Freq's
Posted by: Architex
Date: December 30, 2017 04:02AM
Yeah, you're right. Don't know what the h*ll I was thinking.



The real treasure is in the marketing.

XP Deus / CTX 3030 / Equinox 800

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Re: Freq's
Posted by: amberjack
Date: December 30, 2017 05:41AM
that's right I am right :buds: I am also wrong depending on who someone maybe talking too :chase:

don't worry I can hunt cherry's with the best of them :bouncy:

I would like to have a gold ring for every gold ring I have heard beep and left in the ground.

AJ

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Re: Freq's
Posted by: Architex
Date: December 30, 2017 05:45AM
Yes, me too. Would also like a nickel for every absent-minded thing I ever said. :confused:



The real treasure is in the marketing.

XP Deus / CTX 3030 / Equinox 800

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Re: Freq's
Posted by: amberjack
Date: December 30, 2017 05:51AM
what :lmfao:

AJ

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