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Re: Equinox Depth-Part 2
Posted by: Architex
Date: December 31, 2017 09:54PM
Could be.



The real treasure is in the marketing.

XP Deus / CTX 3030

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Re: Equinox Depth-Part 2
Posted by: Jason in Enid
Date: December 31, 2017 10:05PM
We have heard in the past from detector EEs about design and capability. We all want more usable depth from our detectors but they have said its a logarithmic function. For every increase in depth it requires many times more power. They can make deeper machines but the batteries would only last minutes. With this in mind, its why we are basically at the max depths we can get, AND this is why companies like ML are putting their researching into refining the target signal interpretation. A few EEs who have studied the FBS outputs have all said they use a sequential freq transmission (which is why they behave like a mixture of PI and VLF). So why would we expect the next ML to go backwards in technology?

I think the Equinox is using the same base multi-freq technology as FBS but with changes to the freqs used (and changing based on mode selected) along with new signal interpretation to give us more accurate information. I also disagree with Whites concept that " all multi-frequency hobby detectors run their multiple frequencies simultaneously as opposed to sequentially " simply because it has been shown to be false, therefore all their other statements ring false as well.

Re: Equinox Depth-Part 2
Posted by: TomNH
Date: January 01, 2018 09:46AM
A few things on power & misc.
Morse code is the MOST efficient means of coms. Why ? Very low power, very narrow bandwidth, simple
& easy to manipulate & "pull out" what you want.
World wide coverage possible in the palm of your hand without satillites etc.

Look at NTSC TV now. Bandwidth is 6 Mhz. Most of the very high power is spread out over most of
the 6Mhz. Only the audio being FM is constant power. Range 75-150 miles. Not efficient.

Now HDTV. Boost the power even more & greatly reduced the range.

How does ML produce its freqs ? If harmonics ( mentioned in the FBS patent ) each higher freq will have less power.
Normally you do everything you can to eliminate harmonics.

Hetrodyning. Mix two freqs together & get four out. You get freq A, freq B , the sum of A&B and the difference of A & B.
Almost all radios tune this way.

BTW the ML patents are on line. I have read a few but my mind dont work like it used to ! They are not obvious what
they are for, you gotta "decode" them. For example you wont find listed "how FBS works".............

73
Tom
LFOD !

Re: Equinox Depth-Part 2
Posted by: Charles (Upstate NY)
Date: January 01, 2018 09:54AM
FBS transmits at full power, always, a sequential sequence of high low high low high low pulses its not simultaneous its sequential. Is it perceived by humans as simultaneous? Yes, when you transmit thousands of these sequential pulses a second and sample the receive signal hundreds of times a second for all intensive purposes humans perceive this as simultaneous hence the marketing. Then there are the harmonic frequencies. If you transmit a single frequency square wave, you also transmit an infinite number of harmonics of that frequency. So technically from a marketing perspective can you say simultaneous multi frequency? Technically yes.

Equinox obviously is bringing new technology to the game vs FBS. Maybe its transmitting 3 or 4 or 5 primary frequencies at full power vs FBS 2 primary frequencies. Here's why that's important. A 2nd order harmonic is LESS powerful than the primary frequency transmitted at full strength. A 3rd order harmonic is LESS powerful than a 2nd, a 4th less powerful than a 3rd and so on. So if the Equinox is now transmitting say 5 primary frequencies at full power, the other harmonic frequencies may also be more powerful vs FBS. A harmonic that may be a 4th or 5th order harmonic on a FBS machine may now be a more powerful 2nd or 3rd order harmonic on the Equinox.

Or Equinox may be a completely different technology vs an extension of FBS who knows.

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Re: Equinox Depth-Part 2
Posted by: Jason in Enid
Date: January 01, 2018 10:32AM
Quote
Charles (Upstate NY)
FBS transmits at full power, always, a sequential sequence of high low high low high low pulses its not simultaneous its sequential. Is it perceived by humans as simultaneous? Yes, when you transmit thousands of these sequential pulses a second and sample the receive signal hundreds of times a second for all intensive purposes humans perceive this as simultaneous hence the marketing. Then there are the harmonic frequencies. If you transmit a single frequency square wave, you also transmit an infinite number of harmonics of that frequency. So technically from a marketing perspective can you say simultaneous multi frequency? Technically yes.

Equinox obviously is bringing new technology to the game vs FBS. Maybe its transmitting 3 or 4 or 5 primary frequencies at full power vs FBS 2 primary frequencies. Here's why that's important. A 2nd order harmonic is LESS powerful than the primary frequency transmitted at full strength. A 3rd order harmonic is LESS powerful than a 2nd, a 4th less powerful than a 3rd and so on. So if the Equinox is now transmitting say 5 primary frequencies at full power, the other harmonic frequencies may also be more powerful vs FBS. A harmonic that may be a 4th or 5th order harmonic on a FBS machine may now be a more powerful 2nd or 3rd order harmonic on the Equinox.

Or Equinox may be a completely different technology vs an extension of FBS who knows.


Quote
TomNH
A few things on power & misc.
Morse code is the MOST efficient means of coms. Why ? Very low power, very narrow bandwidth, simple
& easy to manipulate & "pull out" what you want.
World wide coverage possible in the palm of your hand without satillites etc.

Look at NTSC TV now. Bandwidth is 6 Mhz. Most of the very high power is spread out over most of
the 6Mhz. Only the audio being FM is constant power. Range 75-150 miles. Not efficient.

Now HDTV. Boost the power even more & greatly reduced the range.

How does ML produce its freqs ? If harmonics ( mentioned in the FBS patent ) each higher freq will have less power.
Normally you do everything you can to eliminate harmonics.

Hetrodyning. Mix two freqs together & get four out. You get freq A, freq B , the sum of A&B and the difference of A & B.
Almost all radios tune this way.

BTW the ML patents are on line. I have read a few but my mind dont work like it used to ! They are not obvious what
they are for, you gotta "decode" them. For example you wont find listed "how FBS works".............

73
Tom
LFOD !

Great thoughts, and well stated!

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Re: Equinox Depth-Part 2
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: January 01, 2018 05:22PM
Yes, Wayfarer. I think we "think" things similarly, in terms of what's going on with a machine, what it's "trying" to do, and how that affects what arrives to our eyes and ears when a target is located.

I would not be surprised in the Equinox can "eke out" a tiny -- but valuable -- bit more depth. My only concern is, without the 2-D smartfind screen and FE-CO info (and target trace), will it be as effective at clueing us in, with respect to a dig/no-dig decision...

We shall see, but not doubt my interest is piqued! Bottom line, I think an FBS machine and the Equinox, in ones arsenal, should give them a great advantage, in terms of detecting ability, over almost any other machine combination I can think of. I can't imagine any other pair of machines that would -- collectively -- be a better pair than what I expect FBS and Multi-IQ to be.

Steve

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Wayfarer
Quote
sgoss66
Hey, Wayfarer, don't tell my dad (electrical engineer) about my mis-usage of voltage vs. wattage in this context! ;)

Yes, I figure that with that much more energy draw, it's probably unlikely that that's how things are working in the Equinox. You are probably much more likely with "fast sequential" being the way it's working...and then some heavy-duty processing crunching numbers/info...

Steve

Ha ha! Well that's about the extent of my own electrical engineering knowledge, and that's only because my other hobby is ham radio. :nerd:

I thought I could hold off getting too excited about the Equinox, but I'm about to reach orbital velocity with my anticipation now that a release date is out and it only a few weeks away. I know you are like me and VERY interested in what's "under the hood" and how that will translate into real-world performance, especially when it comes to deep Target ID on those old deep coins. My CTX and MXT were the best in this regard, and I'm just hoping, fingers and toes crossed, that the Equinox can eek out even a half inch more depth with accurate Target ID.[/quote]



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

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Re: Equinox Depth-Part 2
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: January 01, 2018 05:25PM
Good stuff, everyone. Good discussion, IMO.

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

Re: Equinox Depth-Part 2
Posted by: TomNH
Date: January 01, 2018 05:43PM
Quote
Jason in Enid

Great thoughts, and well stated!

Thank you for the accolades Jason. I did OK for a tenth grade education didnt I !

Anyhow IMHO EQ uses a modified FBS & multi IQ is mostly software. I guaranty you all the competition has
black boxed FBS machines & knows just how they work & could clone them at the drop of a hat. Just wish
someone with the skills would read the patents & give us an idea how things work. Its just curiosity, I spent 40
years in electronics & I just gotta know ! But alas, I was just a technician, not an engineer............

73
Tom
LFOD !

Re: Equinox Depth-Part 2
Posted by: pasttom
Date: January 02, 2018 01:21PM
Having little knowledge in the physics here aids in thinking out of the box. The Equinox claims to be an evolved form of FSB technology, but just how is a trade secret. A bit of reverse engineering should unmask that, but I doubt White's people had access to an Equinox when that statement was made. I also would not be 100% confident that a competitor is the best person to analyse and REPORT the competition's tech. A bigger point I see here is the tendency to reduce a multi variable problem to a single variable or zero sum. Things are not equal and there is little consideration of that here (or did I miss that?). Look at the evolution in computer chips, every generation is more power efficient, faster and more powerful, yet drawing less power. Simply put, a detector tests the environment, collects data then analyses it and reports it. If you increase the speed/efficiency at any significant level and it should perform better. It is not so much a matter of more raw power or battery bank draining as it is improved efficiency (improved algorithms?) collecting more data, that is then analysed even faster. Ergo, we get better indication of the target- deeper, more precise or less iron drift at depth? The proof will be in the real world usage by a gaggle of hunters. Until then we are all just guessing and or gassing. I hope this did not come off too stuffy, its just my 2 cents!



Pastor Tom
7 Minelabs, 3 Makros and a few others - rebuilding inventory
under the watchful eyes of my Welsh Corgi Sadie



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2018 01:25PM by pasttom.

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Re: Equinox Depth-Part 2
Posted by: Architex
Date: January 02, 2018 01:24PM
"Guessing or gassing"
I love it.



The real treasure is in the marketing.

XP Deus / CTX 3030

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Re: Equinox Depth-Part 2
Posted by: amberjack
Date: January 02, 2018 02:26PM
didn't they say that the FBS platform has gone as far as it can go in one of their blogs , this is not based off the FBS platform from what I read its based off the xterra platform its how they made the board small and that's only what I seen from reading what they have posted.

AJ

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Re: Equinox Depth-Part 2
Posted by: Jason in Enid
Date: January 02, 2018 06:00PM
Quote
amberjack
didn't they say that the FBS platform has gone as far as it can go in one of their blogs , this is not based off the FBS platform from what I read its based off the xterra platform its how they made the board small and that's only what I seen from reading what they have posted.

AJ

Interesting that you mention this. Many people tend to believe the EQ is designed off the FBS as a base. Some of the things ML had said gives this impression, but they never said (that I can remember). When the E-Tac was released, many people assumed (and many still do) that it was a next generation of the Explorer platform. One of the ML engineers has said however that the E-Trac is based off the Quattro detector.

I think this could be a case of "it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck" but its really a goose.

Re: Equinox Depth-Part 2
Posted by: pasttom
Date: January 02, 2018 10:07PM
I was using evolved rather generally/generically :biggrin: now that you mention it I do seem to remember them saying that.



Pastor Tom
7 Minelabs, 3 Makros and a few others - rebuilding inventory
under the watchful eyes of my Welsh Corgi Sadie

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