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Re: Nox coin ring video
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: March 08, 2018 01:48PM
I am going to re-shoot the video tonight, using NO discrimination, in Park 1 mode, to try and see if it IS a "wrap-around" issue on my ring (TN Mike, you say it might NOT be "wrap," VERY interesting). Off camera, I will also test more thoroughly in other modes, and with some settings tweaks -- iron bias, recovery, etc. I may also try a couple of larger silver coins.

I am working a bit, behind the scenes, with this info, and without saying more about that, I will say that I have some reason to believe the info might make it into the hands of Minelab's Equinox folks. Now, I don't know if there will be any "fix" for this, as I'm not really sure its a "bug," and I'm not implying anything more than the idea that it may be looked at a little further. But, as has been stated here, and by Steve H. on his site, MANY machines have issues/inconsistencies with targets "on-edge." And I also think that maybe, as others have speculated (Rick Kempf a.k.a. lytle78, for one), this "issue" may be a "by-product" of some of the "magic" that happens with the Equinox. In other words, an "unintended consequence" of one of the "strengths" of the unit.

Bottom line, maybe there is some "improvement" that can be made on this "quirk," and maybe not. But I'll continue to try to lay it out in text and video, and we'll see if anything comes of it.

I WOULD like to re-iterate, though, that I really do see this as a minor "imperfection" that by no means diminishes the really fascinating and high-end capability of the machine. It's easy to "fixate" on minor issues, while forgetting about positive attributes, and I don't want to contribute to that. I don't what I'm doing to result in a focus on the "trees," while forgetting about the really, really impressive "forest," here. I simply ask that folks don't mis-interpret any of this as being more "negative" than what it is. Strengths and weaknesses are always a reality; for now, this is one rather minor "weakness" of the Equinox, from my view, among a "plethora" of strengths...

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2018 01:54PM by sgoss66.

Re: Nox coin ring video
Posted by: littlenugget
Date: March 08, 2018 06:54PM
"Minor" weakness of Equinox ????? What?????? well if i buy Nox good bye to big old silver rings and maybe , some big silver coins :(

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Re: Nox coin ring video
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: March 08, 2018 07:26PM
ONLY on-edge rings, littlenugget. I bangs hard on them when they are flat...

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

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Re: Nox coin ring video
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: March 08, 2018 07:28PM
OK, here's another video, this time running the same ring, same mode (Park 1), same settings, but this time I also ran a test where I removed all discrimination. With no disc, the machine reveals that it's seeing the ring largely as "iron," giving iron ID and grunting -- ESPECIALLY when it is above-ground. In ground, it's not as pronounced, but in any case, it would appear that "wrap-around" is at least a part of what's going on.

I also ran the on-edge ring with the machine in Park 2 mode, with only marginally better results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CCxSOVWtBo



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

Re: Nox coin ring video
Posted by: littlenugget
Date: March 08, 2018 07:46PM
Yes i know , but did you know almost half of coins and rings are on Edge, not all are flat in ground. A Bounty hunter can detect very well a flat ring thats not the point

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Re: Nox coin ring video
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: March 08, 2018 07:47PM
Quote
KyJoe
sgoss66,
Thanks for the response. I'm not backing out. If you figure something out about this let us know. Curious if you have another detector to compare it to, that would be interesting.

KyJoe --

Ran the ring with the CTX. I put the video up on my channel, if you are interested...

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

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Re: Nox coin ring video
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: March 08, 2018 07:49PM
littlenugget --

While I haven't tested enough to be sure, the "on-edge" problem is largely confined to LARGE targets. Small coins, like dimes, and also GOLD rings, will read well on-edge, with the Equinox. So it really is a rather small number of in-ground targets we are talking about here...

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

Re: Nox coin ring video
Posted by: TN Mike
Date: March 08, 2018 07:54PM
Quote
littlenugget
"Minor" weakness of Equinox ????? What?????? well if i buy Nox good bye to big old silver rings and maybe , some big silver coins :(

Again this seems to only be a problem mostly with park 1 and field 1.. park 2 hit rings just fine on edge as does field 2 and if thats not enough just use a single frequency in p1,p2,f1,f2.

Re: Nox coin ring video
Posted by: TN Mike
Date: March 08, 2018 08:01PM
Quote
sgoss66
I am going to re-shoot the video tonight, using NO discrimination, in Park 1 mode, to try and see if it IS a "wrap-around" issue on my ring (TN Mike, you say it might NOT be "wrap," VERY interesting).

Steve

The reason I say this, is that any conductor I have (ring - coin) at a clad quarter conductivity is causing the vdi to drop or wrap to non-ferrous 1-5. The 1 oz silver bars cause a wrap if stacked to a ferrous -1 to -6 and a single silver bar will hit fairly clean at 37-38, all this on edge of-course. So its a bit odd that a lower conductor (quarter conductivity 30-35) would wrap further around than a silver one oz bar or two for that matter, all the way into the non-ferrous 1-5.

Edit: A clad quarter will hit and ID correctly on edge but my silver ring that comes in at 31 lying flat will drop to 1-8 with bouncy vdi.. seems like its something to do with conductors in the 31+ range.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2018 08:11PM by TN Mike.

Re: Nox coin ring video
Posted by: Bryan V
Date: March 08, 2018 08:06PM
I did some testing awhile back when Steve mentioned it on another forum..
My testing showed that dimes and small thin silver rings were not a problem.
Silver Quarters, Halves and medium to large silver rings standing on edge did not fare well at all..
Real bad!

I’m not losing sleep over it because the Equinox has surprised me a bit on my first few hours of use..
I think it does need to be addressed by Minelab though.. It might be fixable with a software update..
While their at it maybe they will calibrate the depth meter to a penny instead of a quarter..
The depth meter needs some work for sure.. They know how to make one work because they are fantastic on the
E-Trac and CTX..

Bryan



Minelab Equinox 800
Minelab E-Trac
Minelab Gold Monster
Takahashi FC-100DF

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Re: Nox coin ring video
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: March 08, 2018 08:30PM
TN Mike --

You might be "mis-understanding" wrap-around a bit. Think of the VDI scale as a "circle," not a line. If you have a rusty nail, for instance, that is reading -9 on a machine with a -9 to 40 scale, sometimes the iron will "high tone," right? As I understand it, what's happening is that instead of reading -9 (the lowest ID), on some sweeps it goes "one lower" -- which actually then becomes a 40 ID (again, think circular). In this case, it's the other way around, with a high conductor. If a high conductor goes "too high," it apparently can then end up in the iron range, i.e. -9 or -8 or -7. Now, I can't swear that this is exactly what is going on here, with my ring, but in terms of understanding "wrap around," this is essentially how "wrap around" works to the best of my knowledge. Again, think "circular" ID scale, versus linear...

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

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Re: Nox coin ring video
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: March 08, 2018 08:31PM
Quote
Bryan V
I did some testing awhile back when Steve mentioned it on another forum..
My testing showed that dimes and small thin silver rings were not a problem.
Silver Quarters, Halves and medium to large silver rings standing on edge did not fare well at all..
Real bad!

I’m not losing sleep over it because the Equinox has surprised me a bit on my first few hours of use..
I think it does need to be addressed by Minelab though.. It might be fixable with a software update..
While their at it maybe they will calibrate the depth meter to a penny instead of a quarter..
The depth meter needs some work for sure.. They know how to make one work because they are fantastic on the
E-Trac and CTX..

Bryan

Bryan V -- well stated.

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

avatar
Re: Nox coin ring video
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: March 08, 2018 08:50PM
OK, one more video, a tad bit more testing. Someone in a youtube comment asked about turning it not flat, not vertical, but 45 degress.

SO, I did a video where I ran 3 additional tests.

1.) 45 degree angle on the ring. (hint -- MUCH better response)

2.) Ring back to vertical/on edge, Iron Bias run to maximum (which should favor an iron ID) and then to minimum (which should favor a non-ferrous ID). (hint -- just as expected, much better response on the vertical/on-edge ring with iron bias at min. versus at max).

3.) Ring at vertical/on edge, sweep direction across the "short axis" of the ring (as in all the other videos), and then turning 90 degrees and sweeping across the "long axis" of the ring. (hint -- MUCH better response when sweeping across the "long axis.")

Summary -- the WORST read on my silver ring comes with it PERFECTLY vertical/on edge, sweeping the SHORT axis, with iron bias MAXIMIZED. ANY deviation from this "worst case scenario" gives much better -- even in some cases "diggable" -- response on the ring. Less "vertical" orientation of the ring, lower iron bias, or sweeping the long axis of the on-edge ring all improve the response substantially.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc3wDTb3paI

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2018 08:54PM by sgoss66.

Re: Nox coin ring video
Posted by: TN Mike
Date: March 08, 2018 09:38PM
I'm thinking of wrap around the same as you. The problem I'm seeing is, is that a silver quarter is reading a vdi of 1-7 non ferrous on edge and will bounce into the 20's at the edge of the coil. A silver quarter comes in at 30-31 while laying flat. That would be a wrap around of 21-27. A amex one ounce silver bar come in at 37-38 and on edge parallel to the coil and hardly if at all wraps around. And if on edge width wise to the coil will drop to a 25 vdi. Stacking two of these bars on edge parallel to the coil causes a -8 to -9 vdi, thats a wrap around of 10-11, less than half that of a silver quarter which shouldn't wrap around further than two one ounce silver bars stacked. Hopefully I explained clearly and sorry for any confusion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2018 09:40PM by TN Mike.

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Re: Nox coin ring video
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: March 08, 2018 10:27PM
Mike --

I still think you might be confused. Here's why I think that...

First of all, an item should not "wrap" multiple digits (like 10 or 20 digits). Perhaps a couple at most? Like, a -9 target might "wrap" to a 40 or MAYBE 39, or a -8 target might "wrap" to a 40. As I understand it, it's no different than the "bounce" you see on any other target; for instance, a quarter that is a "30" in an air test might read 29 and 31 on successive sweeps. The quarter is "bouncing" by one digit up, or one down. Likewise on a nail; if a nail that air tests as -9 "bounces up" by one digit, it would read -8, but if it "bounces down" by one, it would want to read "-10," but since it can't read "-10" it reads 40. That's how I understand "iron wrap" to work.

Second, it wouldn't be correct to speak of "wrap-around" when referring to the ID value of one target, as compared to the ID value of a different target (one silver bar's ID value compared to the ID of two silver bars stacked together), or targets of different orientation (a flat quarter's ID compared to a vertical quarter's ID). Wrap around refers to the "bounce" that occurs on successive sweeps of the same target, on occasions that -- due to the target's ID being very close to the "end" of the ID scale -- happens to push the ID past the "end" of the scale and thus "around" to the "other end" of the scale (the circular thing).

Now, one thing that needs to be said here, is that in my "simplified" examples above, where a -9 nail reads either -8 or 40 on some sweeps, is referring to a SINGLE FREQUENCY VLF machine's behavior. It is MUCH more complex in Multi-IQ. If you notice, the ring I was sweeping vertically in my video tonight, where I ran it with no disc, was reading sometimes in the -7/-8/-9 range, OR ELSE, on the few higher-tone "chirps," they were usually in the teens or 20s -- NOT in the high 30s, like you might otherwise expect (the "bounce by a couple of digits" thing, I was describing above). Part of the reason for that, I think, is because you are getting multiple reads of the target from multiple different frequencies when running multi-freq. mode, and so what a target "IDs" as, is determined by algorithms that are MUCH more complex than the ID algorithms of a single-freq. machine. They HAVE to be, as the machine has to "reconcile" all the different numbers from ALL the different frequencies, to come up with the "probable target ID." I think what is going on with the Equinox is A.) more complex than the "simple" wrap-around that you get on a single-freq. unit, and B.) also due not only to possible "wrap around," but also to the complexities of the algorithms trying to decipher and ID what is going on under the coil, given the multi-frequency interrogation of each target that is happening "simultaneously" on the Equinox.

Clearly, I am speculating here, as I don't know exactly how the Equinox works, but I think, based on the little bit of understanding that I DO have, that I'm probably not WAY far off the mark...and besides, I DID stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night! LOL! :cool:

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

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