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Great spot to detect for sure. I wonder
Posted by: George-CT
Date: June 16, 2009 11:20AM
if its possible to get and archie to allow you in with them to detect it all and see if come up out of the ground. With a full report at the end. Here, then tend to lock it down, off limits to all but them, and much much later you might see something about it in the paper. The contractors don't want their buildings projects so little most of the time. Each group avoiding the other only causes more of these sites to be lost. Must be a way to make it work. They had one here not far from here. The detectorist, were given golf tee's. They worked a pattern, and marked what they heard. That was it. Then the arkies came in and dug it up later. To the best of my knowledge none of them ever got informed of what was found. Grave sites here they do leave them alone and will wrok around them or reroute a road project. I know the Indian groups around here get into it with the state alot on old grave grounds.

Really interesting post... Hope you find out more on it....


Re: Stories by Kelley (Texas) ............
Posted by: TexasCharley
Date: June 16, 2009 10:21PM
Fred, I saw Dr. Ann Fox tonght. She's an ex-UTSA anthropology/archaeology prof. & very interested in that site you found. She & the late Dr. I. Waynne Cox were collegues. Waynne was the guy who did the salvage archaeology on the old Joske's parking lot back in the '90s. They'd run the site with a metal detector & then had me come in w/dowsing wires. I managed to find the corners of a building that wasn't where the Sanborn's map said it should be. Then I detected a circular feature at one corner that wasn't on the map. Turned out it was the stone coping of an old cistern that was jam full of 19th & early 20th century trash--a treasure-trove to the archaeologists. Waynne said had it not been for me & my wires they would probably never have located it.

Between us we figured the site has to date between mid-1865, when Yankee occupation of the area began, & mid-1868. In 1867 the Cavalry started switching from the wartime .56 Spencer to the later .50 Spencer & by mid-'68 all 10 Cav regts were equipped with the .50. Ann is retired now & doesn't do fieldwork any more--she's on a walker, among other problems--but she knows who to contact to get things rolling to have the site dug. With your permission I'll give her your web address so she can contact you directly. It wouldn't be in FT Sam's records because FT Sam wasn't established until 1874 & for almost 10 years it was mostly a tent city. There's not much known about the actual field activities of the army in that period in the SA area. Most of what's recorded is the military gov't's actions.

Survey done at the Joske's parking lot in the 1990's.............
Posted by: Kelley (Texas)
Date: June 17, 2009 01:22AM
A good friend of our family was involved in the survey at the old Joske's parking lot. His name was Ernest Garrison, a retired border patrol agent who lived in Alamo Heights. Ernest was one tough man and passed away a few years ago.

Back in the late 1980's, I had to make a trip into San Antonio...when I would come to San Antonio, I would always stop by and visit my parents. On this particular trip, I called the night before to tell my parents that I was coming by the house the next day and wanted to show them my new four wheel drive pickup truck. When I arrived at their home, Ernest Garrison was there drinking coffee with my father. They looked at the new four wheel drive pickup truck and told me how much they liked it. Afterwards, we went into the house and talked for a few minutes, and then Ernest and my father started talking about a trip to the Pecos area to explore some caves that Ernest had found while on border patrol duties a few years earlier. Ernest said that the Chinese folks lived in those caves when they worked on the railroad tracks along the Pecos. They were talking about how my new truck was needed to get to some of the remote sites. The more they talked the more it became evident to me that they were talking about leaving in three or four days. I told them that I could not go that soon because I was involved in getting some cows ready for auction in Gonzales, Texas. At that time my Father and Ernest informed me that only "they" were going and they only needed my truck. That really got under my skin, they wanted to use my new truck! Needless to say, I was pretty angry at them! Unfortunately for them, something came up and they did not make the trip...I must admit that I enjoyed telling them that was their reward for being selfish and excluding me from the trip. We often laughed about this for many years. Ernest was a very colorful and interesting man, lots of stories that I could write in regards to some of his adventures. Kelley (Texas) :)

Re: Stories by Kelley (Texas) ............
Posted by: TexasCharley
Date: June 17, 2009 01:18PM
One of the things they'd have found in those caves would have been glass or ceramic tokens that look like buttons but have no holes in them & don't have a value marked on them. Waynne Cox found something like that in San Antonio at a site--tokens that had been chipped out of broken pottery but had no value assigned to them--& was at a loss to understand what they might have been used for--until he showed them to me. They were Fan-Tan chips. I only recognized them because I once lost almost everything but my butt playing Fan-Tan with chips exactly like them. Fan-Tan is a Chinese gambling game that the Spanish picked up in the Philippines. It apparently came to New Spain with the so-called 'Manila galleons' in the 18th century.

Do you want me to give Ann Fox your web address?

Re: Stories by Kelley (Texas) ............
Posted by: TexasCharley
Date: June 17, 2009 04:13PM
I did talk to Ann last night & she is definitely interested. She's a retired anthropology/archaeology prof from UTSA & can no longer do field work because she's on a walker. She does, however, have the connections to get the place surveyed & investigated. All we need is the location, provided it hasn't already been developed. Incidentally, she & I pooled resources & dated the site, by the cartridge cases, to between mid-1865 & mid-1868. At the end of the War Between the States the US Cavalry was equipped, for the most part, with .56 caliber Spencer carbines. Beginning in 1866 the .56 Spencers were replaced with a .50 Spencer equipped with a Stabler magazine-cutoff, which enabled the trooper to use the weapon as a single-shot while keeping a full magazine in reserve. The replacement was complete by mid-1868. Two years later several regiments had their Spencers replaced with a series of single-shot test carbines, leading to the adoption of the trap-door Springfield carbine in 1873, though the 9th & 10th Cav were still packing Spencers as late as 1876.

There's really not that much known about the field activities of the army during that period. Most of what got recorded is about the Reconstruction activities of the military government. FT Sam won't have any record of things that early because it wasn't established until 1874 and was mostly a tent city until the early 1880s.

TexasCharley, yes, you can give her my e-mail address.................
Posted by: Kelley (Texas)
Date: June 17, 2009 09:22PM
I plan on driving out there in a few days to see what is happening. It is my understanding that roads have already been cut and land leveled at the site, but I want to see for myself. This city is getting too big...houses being built everywhere. Places where I rode horses as a young boy are nothing but miles and miles of houses and shopping centers...sad. Kelley (Texas) :)

What a shame if it has been distroyed.N/T
Posted by: Royal
Date: June 18, 2009 06:13AM

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Re: Stories by Kelley (Texas) ............
Posted by: TexasCharley
Date: June 19, 2009 11:15AM
My cousin bought a house in a 'gated community' in west Austin. I used to hunt rabbits & squirrels with my .22 where that house stands. My old home place in Williamson County is behind the new Georgetown Country Club, which used to be Jack Murray's ranch. A place we grass-leased to run extra cattle is now the site of the new First Baptist Church of Georgetown. Judge Diaz B. Wood's ranch, which was on the north side of TX 29 about 2 miles west of G-town, is now a gravel quarry. One of the prettiest houses in Williamson County, just across the Gabriel bridge west of G-town on the north side of 29, is now a derelict--windows broken out, doors gone, just a shell.

What used to be the 'back way' into Austin, US 183, is now an Austin city street with stoplights every block almost all the way to Leander. Liberty Hill, which still had crank telephones in the '70s--my folks' number was 37 outside the system, 3 longs & a short inside--now has a car dealer. Briggs, which used to be a fairly thriving town, has had its entire business block destroyed & the old school is a derelict with all the windows broken out. In the '50s Briggs had a general store, a farm & ranch supply store, & a barber shop. There's nothing there but the old concrete sidewalk & some foundations now.

Urban sprawl is a blight on the landscape anywhere it happens.

Bones would spook me too!!! But your find of the belt plate is really neat! :)N/T
Posted by: Sunny
Date: July 24, 2009 08:30PM

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Re: Stories by Kelley (Texas) ............
Posted by: Cupajo
Date: July 24, 2009 09:44PM
Folks there is one thing as sure of as life itself------------there will be change!!

You can count on it and never be disappointed!

I know beyond any doubt that the very fabric of life depends on change!!

The old adage that you can "never cross the same river twice" is referring to that fact.

My own Grandparents house we called the "Home Place" in Gonzales, Texas is now the site of the local High School!

There are so many memories of that place that I can hardly believe it no longer exists except in the memories of those of us still living who experienced it!

The old adage that "no matter what happens we are along for the ride" certainly applies to the concept of constant change!!

In the scheme of things "eternal"----as wonderful as it is to learn about who, what, where and when---I'm not sure if any of it matters!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just a thought folks,


Re: Stories by Kelley (Texas) ............
Posted by: Cupajo
Date: July 24, 2009 10:33PM
I know that we are doomed to repeat mistakes if we do not learn from them by way of history, but looking to the future is not a bad thing either!

Sorry Fred and Charley--- just one man's oppinion!


PS As odd as it may seem I have been enjoying reading all your posts, so there must be some inate need to know these things!

Best wishes,,


Cupajo, I fail to see where you are coming from on your statements...............
Posted by: Kelley (Texas)
Date: July 25, 2009 12:01AM
I love history, study history, and write personal stories about things that have happened in my life...all on this Story Forum. Yes, I do agree that you learn from the past while moving forward into the future, but on this Story Forum, I concentrate on writing about my past experiences because I thought that was the purpose of the Forum...share your experiences with your fellow members. I do appreciate your opinion on this subject and I will give it some thought...just might need to hold off on writing any more stories until I can figure out how to convey to folks any lessons learned from the experiences and how it affected my future. Please have a great day! Kelley (Texas) :)

Re: Cupajo, I fail to see where you are coming from on your statements...............
Posted by: Cupajo
Date: July 25, 2009 05:08AM
My Most Profound Apologies to You Fred, to Charley and to members of the forum!!!!!!!!!

I came home exhaustid yesterday evening and indulged myself with one stiff drink and now here I am wondering what the blazes happened!

I have learned a valuable lesson folks, "Never write for publication when in such a state!"

Mr. Moderator, feel free to remove the above replies if you wish or leave then as an object lesson of mistaken judgement!

Now I think I need some time to reflect on and try to make sense of the posts I wrote!


Cupajo, I really do not think that an apology is needed.............
Posted by: Kelley (Texas)
Date: July 25, 2009 01:42PM
You voiced an opinion and gave me something to think about. I am still trying to grasp what you brain power is not very strong at times. Voicing one's opinion is quite common on these forums, and often have merit...other times not. Besides, you have contributed more than your fair share of stories on this Forum and I for one appreciate your write good stories! Please have a great day! Kelley (Texas) :)

"Try to live up to your dog's opinion of you!"

Re: Stories by Kelley (Texas) ............
Posted by: Cupajo
Date: July 25, 2009 06:48PM
Hi Fred,

Thanks for your reply Friend!

After due deliberation, I think what I was trying to express in my befuddled state was that, yes conserving knowledge and interest of history and personal heritage is important!

We must not for a moment forget where we've been and what we've experienced individually, culturally and as a member of the totality of humanity!

As we are only able to live in this moment with a hopeful eye on the future (where we're going), we mustn't be distracted from today and tomorrow by yesterday!

We've been there and can't go back, but we must make efforts to understand where we have come from to know completely where we are now and have a more complete understanding of where we're headed!

We each have a part to play in this story and by sharing their experiences and knowledge of life with this forum's readers, those contributing stories here are doing an excellent job of "playing their part"!

Please Friends, keep your fine stories coming and we all will keep learning from them and in doing so hopefully create a brighter future!!

Gotta git off this bronc!!

All this thinkin is makin my head hurt!!

Best wishes All,


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