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Re: Sovereign and Excalibur Search Coils
Posted by: xwyokid
Date: July 13, 2012 01:58PM
Rookie question but...Are the 12x10 and the 10x12 the same SEF coil??

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Re: Sovereign and Excalibur Search Coils
Posted by: Critterhunter
Date: July 13, 2012 02:06PM
Yep, properly listed it should be called a 12x10 just like the 15x12 is listed, but some people call them 10x12 or a 12x15. I think it's a matter of the way an engineer would list specs of an object. Length first perhaps?



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Re: Sovereign and Excalibur Search Coils
Posted by: larry_nj
Date: July 14, 2012 02:32PM
are the coils made for the gt and other sov models interchangeable with the sov xs ?

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Re: Sovereign and Excalibur Search Coils
Posted by: Critterhunter
Date: July 14, 2012 02:52PM
All Sovereign coils will work with all Sovereign models, or with Excals as well for that matter so long as you wire the coil up to one of those.



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Re: Sovereign and Excalibur Search Coils
Posted by: Critterhunter
Date: July 14, 2012 03:24PM
Here's one I forget about. Only heard it mentioned once in this thread below...A Ferret Hot Head 5" search coil for the Sovereign. I suspect this was just the early name for the Detech 5 or 6" Detech Excelerator coils (I think they made a 5 and then/now a 6" Excelerator coil for the Sovereign as I've read I think both of a 5 and 6" Excelerator for it at one time or another...I think they just make a 6" for it now, if they ever did make a 5"?).

To confuse things even more I found a reference to an 8" Ferret Hot Head coil for the Sovereign too somewhere that was said to be a concentric perhaps, but I don't know if they were talking about an actual Ferrett or the actual newer 8" concentric coil Detech made up until a couple of years ago? And, does that then mean that the 5" Ferret was a double DD or was it a concentric too (if there was an 8" concentric Ferret coil)? :blink:

Anyway, then again the Hot Head line of coils were notoriously bad coils from way back in the day. The only machines I ever heard they were any good on *maybe* was like an 8, 10, or 12 (can't remember) inch version for Garretts that I think I remember some said did show them a depth improvement. On the other hand, even if this 5" Hot Head is NOT just the early name for the much better (than Hot Heads) 5 or 6" Excelerator trash coil(s) and indeed is not the same coil as that (or those if there was both a 5 and 6" Excelerator), I guess it wouldn't matter much...As a little coil like that only needs good seperation and depth isn't too much of a concern I guess to many people in a trash coil.

By the way, don't confuse the Hot Heads with the 12" Hot Shot by Jimmy Seria, although I owned two of those for my Whites and they were junk. They became unstable after about ten minutes at each new site. Now I know why they made them white, because they were trying to prevent them from warming up in the sun and shifting the coil windings because the coil wasn't filled with epoxy.

Also, while many have good things to say about the 5/6 inch Excelerator coil(s), there is hardly any talk on the net about the bigger Excelerator coils. They came/come in 12", 14", 16", and I think an 18" size. There might have also been a 10" one for a while. For sure the early versions of these were mostly reported to be junk and I *think* they were called Penetrators. Later, I heard they came out with an improved version that *might* have been called just Excelerators or Excelerator EQ2 coils or something like that. Don't think they were still called Penetrators with the new versions but they might have been? Anyway, those new versions were said to be better, but once again there was/is almost zero message traffic on the net about them. That makes me suspicious, as they've been around much longer than the SEF coils and look at all the buzz about them for the Sovereign on the net (not just here from me). Regardless, not sure if Kellyco still carries these sizes these days or just the smaller 5/6" coil(s). It might be that even if they don't Detech still makes them for sale over seas at various places. Also, I see Kellyco has/had a 8" Excelerator for the Sovereign listed on their site a few months back. Not sure if it's still up there, but It's a solid coil like the 5/6" coil(s), so I wonder if it's in fact just that one(s) and was mislabled as an 8"? Curiously, Kellyco stopped carrying the 8" Detech concentric a couple years back or so, so if there is indeed a 8" Sovereign coil at Kellyco the question is is it a new 8" DD coil or the concentric one once again?

By the way, the 5/6" coil(s) and the 8" one(s) are solid, while the bigger detech Penetrator/Excelerator/Whatever they were and are now called coils are open framed loops like the Tornado or the WOT.

Yes, I know tons of useless details...:biggrin: But I like to get all that kind of stuff on record in this sticky in case somebody ever comes across an odd Sovereign/Excal coil for sale and wonders "What the heck is that thing?!" Now you know....Or then again maybe not...:biggrin: Because I'm not sure I got all the details right myself. If anybody has any corrections or additions please correct me, and if you know of an odd and rare Sovereign/Excal coil please post some details and a pic if you have it. For instance, vaguely I think from memory there were also Sovereign solid white coils sold by Kellyco years ago. Big ones like 12 or 14". I'm not talking about the 11 or 12" solid Minelab or Sunray coils (wasn't there a solid white version of the 8" Coinsearch coil made by Minelab that was an 11" coil and also a solid white version of the Sun Ray S-12 before it became the open framed black one they sell now?). Anyway, if other solid white large coils existed that Kellyco sold made by another company I *think* those old Kellyco catalogs called them Penetrators and were made by Detech. If that's true and my memory is right, that was before the open framed black Penetrators which I think later became the Excelerator or Excelerator EQ2 coils I guess? Somebody correct me here if I'm wrong about any of this stuff.

Anyway, if anybody has a pic of this supposed "Hot Head" 5" Sovereign coil I'd like to see it and if it looks like it is in fact a 5" Excelerator and just had a name change early one. I'd also like to see pics and any details about any other rare Sovereign/Excal coils. Here's a link to a thread on the 5" Hot Head Ferret...

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?21,1498182,1499822#msg-1499822



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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2012 03:38PM by Critterhunter.

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Re: Sovereign and Excalibur Search Coils
Posted by: Critterhunter
Date: July 14, 2012 03:58PM
Dug up another review of the 8" concentric Detech coil...

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?21,1231678,1231678#msg-1231678

And here's a thread with a bit more info on that coil, as well as a blurb or two about the 5" Hot Head Ferret coil...

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?21,615057,615057#msg-615057

That's about all I can find on these two coils, and still don't know if the 5" Ferret was a DD or a concentric or if it was just an early name for the 5/6" Excelerator coil(s) which I know for sure ARE DD coils. Or if there was both a 5 and 6" Excelerator or just a 6"? Also still don't know if there was an 8" Concentric Ferret and if there was was it different than the newer 8" Detech concentric. :blink: My head is spinning. Too much digging through threads for one day and that's all I can find on this stuff anyway.



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2012 04:01PM by Critterhunter.

Re: S-5 and the S12 Sun Ray coils
Posted by: Neil
Date: July 14, 2012 06:52PM
Quote
Rick(ND)
There is 2 different versions of these coils as there was the early ones and the latter ones. The early ones were white in color and solid coils and the S-12 was a bit heavy too, these were called the Ultra series and believe the S12 Ultra was not waterproof either and not sure on the S-5. Now we have the newer ones that are black with the S 12 Intruders a open coil so it is lighter weight and from using both the S12 Ultra and the S-12 Intruders I found both to be excellent coils with some great depth and separation and find the newer S-12 seem to separate a bit better and depth a little more too for me anyway. I have seen some great prices on the S-12 Ultra with some as low as $50 on the forums.


Rick

Rick you are correct about the earlier Sunray coils and both were water resistant, not waterproof. Even up to the latest coils you can always tell an older one by its gray cable.

On the seasearch coil, didnt minelab offer those up as an accessory for the Sov? I believe so. Thats a coil that alot of guys liked but I never saw what all the rave was. Tried a couple of them, heavy and unbalanced and performance in my opinion was about the same as the coinsearch. Guys used to saw off the wings to lighten up the coil. Those coils also have a problem with blistering and coming apart. It was shortly after they were released that minelab introduced the BBS coils that then went on the Sov and Excals.

The older white S12 and 10" Coinsearch were probably the two heaviest/most unbalanced coils Ive ever used on the Sovs and Ive used most of them. Sunray really hit one out of the park with the black S12, still one of the best if not the best large coil for the Sov when you think of performance/balance and how light it feels on the end of the rod. It also is not bad in the water for resistance.



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The Sun Ray White Solid S-12
Posted by: Critterhunter
Date: July 14, 2012 06:56PM
Dug up a picture and a thread on it. Not waterproof from what I gather, just like the 8 and 11" Minelab Coinsearch coils since all these coils are solid and thus would probably weigh too much if filled with epoxy like a spiderweb/non-solid coil is due to less volume to fill. Less weight to fill those and so all I know of for the Sovereign or Excal are indeed waterproof. The few small blurbs I could find on the solid S-12 people seem to like it, although they say it's heavier than the later spiderweb design S-12 that is still made to this day.

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?21,493251,493251#msg-493251

And a field test with it...

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?21,1070250,1070250#msg-1070250



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2012 07:13PM by Critterhunter.




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Re: S-5 and the S12 Sun Ray coils
Posted by: Critterhunter
Date: July 14, 2012 07:00PM
Hey Neil, did you mean to say 11" Coinsearch coil instead of 10"? I was under the impression there was of course the famous 8" one and then an 11" one? I'm just now trying to dig up pics and info to post with links on that coil for this thread, as well as any more about the solid S-12 white coil before the spiderweb black one came out that is still made to this day.

And do you and he mean there were two versions of the solid S-12, one heavier than the later one, and you could tell the difference by the coil cable? I know the spiderweb S-12 is of course waterproof because it's a favorite among some water hunters, so I assume you are talking about two versions of the solid S-12 in certain respects above (both of you)?



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2012 07:06PM by Critterhunter.

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Re: S-5 and the S12 Sun Ray coils
Posted by: Critterhunter
Date: July 14, 2012 07:35PM
I'm having no luck finding a picture of the 11" Minelab Coinsearch coil, so if anybody has this ultra rare coil please post a pic and a review of it, as I can't really find much performance posts about it other than one guy saying he loves it for the beach. If any of you have compared it to the solid S-12 Sun Ray coil how about a weight and performance comparison of the two too? I doubt there is anybody even reading this sticky that has this coil sitting around maybe as it sounds very rare. From what little I found on it I think they said it was only an option as a second coil you could buy only when you bought the original Sovereign that already had the 8" Coinsearch coil on it? In other words, sounds like it was only an option to get at the time of purchase as a second coil for the original Sovereign maybe and couldn't be bought otherwise? Somebody correct me as that's just the gist of what I say implied in a thread containing a tiny bit of detail on it. If that's true, then I'm sure that's why it seems to be the rarest of all Sovereign coils, made by Minelab or not, with the exception of perhaps that odd shaped little Detech coil I provided a link to in the first page of this sticky. The way I understand it that coil was ultra rare in the US or might have never even been sold here, but it might still be sold by Detech over seas in a Sovereign version still as that link I provided shows it for sale still it looks like.

Here's a picture of that little Detech coil. It's a 4.5x7. I remember one guy in this forum saying he bought the last one somewhere at one shop over seas, but by the link I provided on the prior page it still appears they make it and will custom build per order.



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2012 07:38PM by Critterhunter.




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Re: The Sun Ray White Solid S-12
Posted by: Critterhunter
Date: July 14, 2012 07:56PM
I shot Ralph at Sun Ray a PM to find out if there were any two versions or so of the solid S-12 Ultra Depth coil as well as the spiderweb current version of the S-12. I also asked for any info on these coils/versions of them all along with any pics he could send me or post directly into this sticky, so when he gets back to me I'll post what he gives me unless he posts it directly here for us.



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Re: S-5 and the S12 Sun Ray coils
Posted by: Rick(ND)
Date: July 15, 2012 01:23AM
The 11 inch Coinsearch was a option of a second coil for the Sovereign original and the XS, but if I remember correctly back to 1996 they were not very popular and the price was high so Sun Ray made their version of the 12 inch ultra depth coil which was much better and less money. With the 12 inch they made a 5 inch coil too for those that needed a smaller coil. The 8 inch coinsearch and the Ultra depth S-12 were the most popular coils for the Sovereign and to this day the 8 inch is still popular and the newer S-12 Intrudder of Sun Rays plus the S-8 also for those that are more serious about finding the better finds.

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The Coiltech WOT & Detech SEF 15x12 Size Comparison
Posted by: Critterhunter
Date: July 15, 2012 01:11PM
The Coiltech WOT, which I believe is 14.25" in size, was I think the first aftermarket coil made for the Sovereign (?). It has earned it's reputation and many favor it for water hunting or hunting large fields, as well as trying to gain depth in hunted out spots because of it being a larger coil than stock. It is still made to this day for the Sovereign by Coiltech and has a large following.

The 15x12 SEF, along with the 12x10, came out roughly about 3 years ago or so for the Sovereign. They are still made but can be hard to get lately as Kellyco always seems to be waiting for shipments off and on. Detech is making many of these and several other coils for various machines and seems to be swamped with orders all the time. You may have more luck finding them used or on @#$%& or directly from Joann Detectors or somebody over seas. Detech also sells an 18x15 and a 21xsomething size of the coil, but both of those are well beyond size in terms of depth gains on coin or ring sized targets. I found even the 15x12 *in my soil* did not get the depth of the 12x10 on coin/ring sized targets and also wasn't as deep as the stock 10" Tornado in my soil for thos, but for some reason it did get deeper than stock on those targets in my mineralized sand sites. Some do report depth gains on coin/ring targets in their soil, though over stock. I suspect it depends on how mineralized your soil is. The 12x10 for me is for sure deeper than stock or the 15x12 on land. The only source of these SEF coils in the US new is via Kellyco. If you tell them you want the Findmall special they'll give you free shipping. The Sovereign versions of these coils can be hard to find on their site though, so probably better to call and ask for JW as he seems to be up on finding them I think.

I found the 15x12 was too much drag for my tastes in the water due to it's shape, but I don't hear too many complaints about the WOT in the water, so I suspect due to it's shape the WOT is more sleek and less resistance in the water. I haven't tried my 12x10 in the water yet because my stock 10" Tornado stays on my water rig as the 12x10 is my every day land coil.

Anyway, here's some pics of the 15x12 and WOT for size comparison laying over each other. As you can see, the WOT is slightly wider at the very center, but the 15x12 retains it's width more over a longer span of the length and is also a bit longer than the WOT at the tip and tail. For that reason, the SEF will give you slightly more ground per sweep covered length wise I would think. As most know, DD coils tend to have a detection line running from tip to tail of the coil. Think of it as a wiper blade, so you can see how length=more coverage IMO.

I would love to see somebody do some depth tests of these two coils head to head to see which gets deeper in sand and on land.

These photos are courtesy of Ra-Mo. Maybe he'd be the guy to ask about what he thought of the two performance/depth wise. I think if you search for "wot, 15x12" (all words, any date) in this forum you can find some comparison opinions on them both from those who have owned both...



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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2012 01:13PM by Critterhunter.




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The Minelab 8" BBS Coil & WOT For Size Comparison
Posted by: Critterhunter
Date: July 15, 2012 01:15PM
Remember that the 8" BBS (heavy) and the newer Tornado version are both 7 & 1/4" coils, so many people love them (in particular the Tornado version) for excellent seperation as a heavy trash coil. The WOT I believe is 14.25" in size...



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The Tornado 10" & Sun Ray S-5 Coils Size Comparison
Posted by: Critterhunter
Date: July 15, 2012 01:24PM
The Sun Ray is actually 5.5" in size. A really small coil, and I like that for max separation. Many like odd shaped trash coils where the length is longer in order to attempt to increase depth, but when I'm working heavy trash with a small coil I want max separation and that means the smallest round coil I can find. I still think this coil may get 9" or so on a silver dime in my soil. Very impressive considering the deepest a non-Minelab machine could ever get in my soil was 7.5" on a dime and that was using an 8 to 10" size coils. While I haven't dug a dime at 9" with the S-5 yet, I have dug one about 7" that hit so hard and easy that I believe it could have easily been another 2 to 3" deep and I should probably still have got it just fine. I've read of others reporting 9" or so on dimes with it so I'm fairly confident it will do that for that reason too in my soil, or at least come very close to it.

Early versions of the S-5 were white in color but I haven't heard if the performance was any different than the current version which Sun Ray continues to make to this day.

Here's a thread I did on S-5 and 10" Tornado separation tests against each other. It includes pictures of masked targets and notes in detail how both coils did at two 90 degree angles to each target masked differently. Very long, but detailed and does indeed show the merits of using a small coil for unmasking even better than the already excellent ability of the 10" Tornado...

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?21,1131053,page=1



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Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2012 01:47PM by Critterhunter.




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