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Re: ID segments
Posted by: BarnacleBill
Date: March 11, 2009 04:26PM
You see those pictures of used detectors with all the silk screened numbers worn off around the Disc knob. :lmfao: A telltale sign just like those footprints of SasQuatch.......meanwhile somewhere in Northern Michigan, the JackPine Savage stalks treasure. :lol:



HH
BarnacleBill


Re: You forgot to say Iron Mask 20 and dig every beep. :rofl:N/T
Posted by: Tinfoil
Date: March 11, 2009 04:44PM

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the beauty of the X-70......
Posted by: Digger
Date: March 11, 2009 04:49PM
Many of you are reiterating the very reasons I consider the X-Terra 70 to be one of the best (if not THE best) detector value available today. It allows the user to hunt with whatever amount of "refinement" that the person choses. As someone who "cut their teeth" on the early BFO's and TR detectors, I am of the opinion that the X-70 is the cat's meow! The non-metered BFO's would beep when you passed over just about everything. The metered BFO's were an improvement as they would tell us if it were mineral or metal. When I got my hands on my first TR with discrimination, I was in hog heaven! You could fill your pouch with coins just about every outing. Unfortunately, most of those coins were half as deep as we can detect today. In the mid-70's, along came the VLF/TRs that gave us more "non-discriminating" depth in the VLF mode. And by using "reverse discrimination" we could rescan the target in an attempt to give us some idea of whether to dig or not. More of a signal strength meter than anything else. So if a target was detected in the VLF mode, when you switched to TR to confirm it, you dug those that didn't register "bad". If the depth was beyond the TR mode, you dug it hoping it was good! And then we had analog TID meters. And I still have a trusty XLPro. I learn more about a target using that analog meter than I can with any digital meter. (?old dog - new tricks?) But no matter how good the meter is, my XLPro only offers variable discrimination, one tone and it requires a fairly fast sweep speed. (aftermarket four tone audio enhancements are now becoming available)

the beauty of the X-Terra 70......
As someone who likes to hunt for old coins at old sites, the X-70 allows me to set my detector as I chose. I can set any Pattern to accept or reject any of the 28 target notches available. I can dig everything or reject target notches that I don't want to hear. I can set the audio response to be a single tone, dual tone, tri-tone, quad-tone or multiple tone. I can run with whatever degree of threshold sound I want. Or I could (I don't) run in silent search mode. I can adjust my sensitivity to allow for the coil and the soil. I can run in fixed GB or with a couple different tracking options. I can run with a low frequency coil, one of several mid frequency coils or one of the higher frequency coils. I can use DD coils for the higher mineralized sites and concentrics for moderate ground. Noise Cancel and the inherit characteristics of VFLEX allows me to minimize the effects of RFI or other ambient interference. My performance is not limited by sweep speeds. I can use the Pinpoint mode for narrowing down the "dig here" location and for determining target depth. Or I can switch to Prospecting mode to size up the target AND determine the precise target location. All of this PLUS a darn accurate target ID display that will tell you so much more than the target's conductivity, if you learn what to look (and listen) for.

Personally, I hunt in the C/T All Metal mode, slight threshold, with multiple tones. I prefer to set my GB using Auto GB. Then set it a couple numbers toward the positive phase. (lower number) This can cause the detector to be a bit more noisy at times. Especially if you are hunting a site that does not allow you to keep your coil parallel to the surface. Or if you are sweeping in rough ground or vegetation. But running in those areas with it HOT is the reason I like this capability as I can keep my coil an inch or so off the ground and still maximize my depth of detection. Living in an area with moderate mineralization, I find the concentrics offer me the most depth. As a coinshooter who loves the old silver, I prefer the 3 kHz coil for the sites I hunt. It may not go any deeper than the other 9-inch coils. But as I've said many times, the 3 kHz coil provides a very distinct audio response on deeply buried iron. At old homesteads and farmsites, this allows me to "skip" over most of the scrap iron. If I get into a site that has multiple adjacent targets (as in 6 or more per sweep), I use the 6-inch DD coil at 18.75 kHz. I like the lower frequency better for where I hunt. But (in my opinion) the 6-inch DD separates better than the 6-inch concentric. Therefore, until they come out with a small DD coil at 3 kHz, I'll put up with digging more aluminum than I would likely dig, using a lower frequency coil.

I can hunt with just about any detector out there. And frankly, I have. But the flexible functionality offered by the X-70 raises the bar for future generations of detectors. I've chosen (and mentioned) those that work for me. And appreciate all of them. Yours may differ. But again, the beauty of the X-70 is that we have a multitude of choices for "refining" it to our sites and styles. JMHO HH Randy



You'll never know for sure......unless you dig it! HH "Digger"




After more than 46-years of detecting, and having owned dozens of different detectors, I've come to the conclusion that maintaining success in the field is largely dependent on three things..... choice of site, acquiring a proper skill set for the detector and the detector itself..... in that order. Research, practice and persistence. There are no substitutes.

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a bit on ferrous and conductive readings......
Posted by: Digger
Date: March 11, 2009 05:21PM
Many are of the belief that the Explorer (or eTrac) provides two readings, based on the target's actual conductivity and ferrous content. Just as many folks believe that the X-Terra bases it's TID numbers on a specific level of conductivity. I know I did for a long time. The best explanation that I have found was in Andy Sabisch's new book "The Minelab Explorer and E-Trac Handbook. On page 13 Mr. Sabisch goes into great detail explaining what the two numbers being displayed actually represent. In a nutshell..... "there is no true metallurgical analysis being performed on each target that the detector sees despite what the terminology infers. The FE and CO values are simply coordinates on a graph assigned arbitrarily by the software developed by Minelab engineers, which is processing the signals coming back from the coil." According to one of Minelab's engineers, "they are simply relative values that provide consistency when similar targets are passed under the coil in the air and as much as possible, buried in the ground. They are not a true measurement of a specific electrical property or parameter. Furthermore, the design of the software was such that the indicated values should not blend between one another, i.e. changes in the portion of the signal designated as "conductivity" should affect only the CO value and not the FE value and vice versa. In fact, this was our problem (with the numbers on the Explorer (with the S-shaped) curve there was some mixing between these variables) and users saw this by the way the cursor moved around on some buried targets."

What does this mean???? It means that numbers are just that......numbers. And, they do not represent the actual measurement of the conductivity or ferrous content of the target. The software is simply processing a signal and mapping it to a predefined value. On the E-Trac, it is two values commonly referred to as CO and FE. On the X-Terra, it is one number that we commonly refer to as the conductivity reading. The fact that the values differ between detectors (whether it be between the E-Trac and the Explorer, or the X-30, X-50 and X-70) simply confirms that the algoritm is different. Whether we call it conductive or simply place it as a value of "X", doesn't really matter. What is important is to identify targets consistently, based on the values applied.

HH Randy



You'll never know for sure......unless you dig it! HH "Digger"




After more than 46-years of detecting, and having owned dozens of different detectors, I've come to the conclusion that maintaining success in the field is largely dependent on three things..... choice of site, acquiring a proper skill set for the detector and the detector itself..... in that order. Research, practice and persistence. There are no substitutes.

Re: ID segments
Posted by: Shenandoah Digger
Date: March 11, 2009 05:33PM
I thought I knew about everything involving the Xterra 70. Found out I didn't.

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I knew that'd bring you out of the Bayou!:razz: How ya been you ol' Pirate?N/T
Posted by: BarnacleBill
Date: March 11, 2009 06:02PM

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Excellent post Randy!:clap:N/T
Posted by: BarnacleBill
Date: March 11, 2009 07:10PM

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Re: I been doing great. Hunting 3 and 4 days a week all year round. :clapping: . Just getting old. 65 but I am still cooking. I dug some nice stuff last year. Thanks for asking. Hope you are fine also. :thumbup: :D: :D:N/T
Posted by: Tinfoil
Date: March 11, 2009 07:36PM

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2009 07:38PM by Tinfoil.

Re: Outstanding Post Randy. 100% correctamundo. :thumbup: :clapping: :D: :D:N/T
Posted by: Tinfoil
Date: March 11, 2009 07:46PM

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Re: ID segments
Posted by: David
Date: March 11, 2009 07:48PM
Hot doggie Randy, heeehaw!!! Was a some good postin'!! Ain't too much better than that!

Also it is important to know that 3 kHz coil that you love for silver coins and also for rejecting iron will still pick up an old small and very fine gold ring on an old homestead with good depth, for an example as showed in your test here:

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,899272,page=3

6-inch 18.75 kHz DD coil vs 9-inch concentric at 3 kHz on a fine small gold ring

Randy wrote:
"When airtesting it tonight, I find it reads a solid TID of 8 when using the all metal mode. Switching to the 9-inch concentric at 3 kHz, it bounces a bit between 4 and 6. Depth wise, it will hit at 4.5 inches on either coil. However it locks on better with the DD."

David wrote:
Thank you, for doing that test for me Randy it is appreciated! Shows to me the 9-inch concentric at 3 kHz WILL detect and find a fine small gold ring with the LF. Also will find small gold nuggets, if need be, if they ever make a 3 kHz DD someday.


And I didn't know that about the E-Trac's 2 number system? It is not as I thought it was. I wonder if that means it is not as precise and surgical as I thought it was?

Re: Oh by the way I hunt like that a lot. :thumbup: :rofl: :D: :D:N/T
Posted by: Tinfoil
Date: March 11, 2009 07:48PM

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Re: ID segments
Posted by: Digger
Date: March 11, 2009 08:21PM
Thanks David. As to whether or not the E-Trac is as "precise and surgical" as you thought????? Maybe! Think of the X and Y coordinates (CO and FE, if you prefer) as a piece of graph paper. To keep this relatively simple, lets say the sheet of paper is 20 boxes wide and 30 boxes high. And lets number them 1-20 left to right. And 1 - 30 bottom to top. That gives us 600 "box choices" in which to categorize any one target. The box in the lower left hand corner would be box number 1. The one directly to the right of it would be box number two. The box directly above box number one would be called box 21. And the one to the top - right corner would be box 600. If a 1901 Barber dime always shows up in the box represented by the fourth row down and second column from the right, it would have been assigned to row 26, column 18. That would be box number 538. Now, as a software engineer, you can call any box, anything you want to call it. Frankly, if I were designing software for a high tech metal detector, I'd be tempted to call it a 1910 Barber dime and actually display those words on the TID. 1910 Barber Dime. But then you'd have someone find a 1932 Mercury dime with the same "box assignment", of 538, and wonder why you called it a Barber dime. Or someone would find a 1901 Barber dime that showed up in the next column to the left (box 537), and wonder why the detector didn't ID it properly. Coins vary! Wear, year, mint, angle, mineralization effects, etc. My point is that the E-Trac is just as precise as the information gathered by the coil and ran through the software. In a lab situation, it would probably be "spot on" 99% of the time. However, actual field hunts are typically far from a lab environment. So as they say on TV ads, your results may vary. Regardless, there are many more "box options" on the E-Trac than on the X-Terra. But on the other hand, how many do we need? For some of us, we'd rather have a target lock on to one notch segment of the 28 notch X-70, than to watch a target bounce between rows and columns of a detector that has so many more "box choices." Simply a matter of choice. HH Randy



You'll never know for sure......unless you dig it! HH "Digger"




After more than 46-years of detecting, and having owned dozens of different detectors, I've come to the conclusion that maintaining success in the field is largely dependent on three things..... choice of site, acquiring a proper skill set for the detector and the detector itself..... in that order. Research, practice and persistence. There are no substitutes.

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:please:Digger, you did it again with this post!!!
Posted by: utmike
Date: March 11, 2009 09:37PM
It is great how you can take a five dollar word and convert it into something us lower tech guys can use in the field!!! The forum is a better place for all of your time and effort. THANK YOU!

HH



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2009 09:40PM by utmike.

Re: the beauty of the X-70......
Posted by: Steve(MS)
Date: March 11, 2009 11:06PM
I have to agree with you Digger even though I haven't tried the newer mid-line detectors available,
I have friends to fill me in on how the other ones perform.
What I look for in the way of a detector is something that is physically well-built, has useful features
and isn't fidgety as far as stability is concerned.
I still get amazed at just how well the 6" DD can find targets mixed in with trash, those that haven't tried it need to, go slow and dig those signals that give an indication that there is something there besides iron.

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Re: ID segments
Posted by: jspeedy
Date: March 12, 2009 04:02AM
This was good reading guys! I had not seen much on this topic before so I thought I would throw it out there. It makes me feel better about my X-70.
One thing though, some of you say "when it sounds good I dig it" well so do I and I get a lot of trash. Could some of you experts start a post on the "relativity of sounds good"

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