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Re: Lower rods for the CTX...
Posted by: stephenscool
Date: January 07, 2018 05:16PM
Quote
sgoss66
OK, stephenscool. When you say "cz21 clevis," are you talking about the lower part of the rod, where the coil bolt goes through? I presume you are suggesting cutting off the lowest, say, 4" of the rod, and attaching that to whatever material (carbon fiber or PVC) I am using for the CTX lower rod?

When I look for a CZ21 rod, what I see from Fisher is a 26.5" rod, that claims to be compatible with "all Teknetics and Fisher units."

If this IS what you are saying, I'd be curious -- do you know the outside diameter on the CZ-21 lower rod?

Steve
Not near my little workshop to take a photo comparing the cz to the ctx... but the diameter is almost identical. They could be interchangeable with a little MacGyvering.
Attached photo is of a 3d printed excal clevis. Professional quality on a $100k printer. It will not work on the ctx.




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Re: Lower rods for the CTX...
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: January 07, 2018 11:42PM
OK, stephenscool, that looks really, really good (that Excal piece). We are getting close to something that might actually be viable here, in terms of rods. I'm thinking possibly even buying carbon-fiber rods in "bulk" (say 10 or 20 of them), to get better pricing, and then maybe there'd be several folks interested in building their own lower rods. Are there any others interested in this, if I can work this all out?


Here are my questions, at this point...

What size, exactly, OD, will work with the CTX. Without a digital caliper and just doing a regular measurement with ruler today, it looked like my CTX rod's outside diameter is 28 mm...but again, that's just using a ruler, not a caliper. The actual measurement could be give or take a tenth of a mm or two. I will verify before buying, but I think 28mm will work. I would like to talk with AngerManagement, a member here; I have sent him a PM. He has already done this, and he said, in the other thread, that 27.8 to 27.9 mm is what you need -- but it really looked to me, when I looked at my CTX rod today, like 28 mm would work. I am not sure if you can "sand" carbon fiber, or how you'd reduce the diameter a bit, if needed. Anyone know?

Anyway, once I were to find the proper-sized CF rods and get them in hand, the rest doesn't appear to be too difficult, EXCEPT for that lower piece.

Here's what I know...the "width" of that lower piece, that needs to go between the coil ears, needs to be rougly 20 mm. The CTX piece is 20 mm, but then the coil washers stick out a bit farther, maybe 1mm at most on each side. So I would need some nylon washers as well. That's easy. But anyway, 20 mm wide. Then, the other end (the non-coil-bolt end) of this lower piece would either need to slide OVER the bottom of the CF rod, or INTO it. To slide over the outside of the CF rod (which is how it is on the CTX), you'd need to somehow build that lower piece with a hollow tubular end with an inside diameter of like 28.2 to 28.4 mm (to slide over the CF rod). The other option -- as in that 3D-printed Excal piece shown above -- is to slide it INSIDE the CF tube; a 28 mm CF tube has an inside diameter of 26 mm, so the piece that slides inside the tube would need to be like 25.6 to 25.8 mm outside diameter. Just so happens that 25.4 mm is one inch; maybe it could work at 25.4 mm, with the glue/epoxy/whatever filling the rest of the space. I did see some black nylon (nylon 6,6) rods that have an OD of 1" (25.4 mm); perhaps these could be used -- one end sliding into the CF rod, and the the other end sanded flat on each side to a width of 20 to 22 mm to fit between the coil ears? This could be one way of doing it, without having to 3D print anything.

Anyway, I'm not sure what the outside diameter of that 3D-printed Excal piece's rod is, but since stephenscool says it won't work, it must be smaller than 1" (25.4 mm). Otherwise, that might have been able to be "MacGyvered," as he said, to work.

If we can solve this issue (that lower piece), then making these would be pretty easy -- and apparently CHEAP. Where are you getting carbon-fiber rods for $10, stephenscool?

The ONLY other issue, is cutting the slot for the coil wire to fit inside. I'm not sure what the proper tool is for cutting carbon fiber, but I'm sure a hacksaw would work. I'd like to find a way to do it neatly however...

As I mentioned above, are there any others who would be interested in this, assuming I can get it all figured out and make it all work well? I like to think it could be done for less than, say, $40 in parts...

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

Re: Lower rods for the CTX...
Posted by: stephenscool
Date: January 08, 2018 07:27AM
Quote
sgoss66
OK, stephenscool, that looks really, really good (that Excal piece). We are getting close to something that might actually be viable here, in terms of rods. I'm thinking possibly even buying carbon-fiber rods in "bulk" (say 10 or 20 of them), to get better pricing, and then maybe there'd be several folks interested in building their own lower rods. Are there any others interested in this, if I can work this all out?


Here are my questions, at this point...

What size, exactly, OD, will work with the CTX. Without a digital caliper and just doing a regular measurement with ruler today, it looked like my CTX rod's outside diameter is 28 mm...but again, that's just using a ruler, not a caliper. The actual measurement could be give or take a tenth of a mm or two. I will verify before buying, but I think 28mm will work. I would like to talk with AngerManagement, a member here; I have sent him a PM. He has already done this, and he said, in the other thread, that 27.8 to 27.9 mm is what you need -- but it really looked to me, when I looked at my CTX rod today, like 28 mm would work. I am not sure if you can "sand" carbon fiber, or how you'd reduce the diameter a bit, if needed. Anyone know?

Anyway, once I were to find the proper-sized CF rods and get them in hand, the rest doesn't appear to be too difficult, EXCEPT for that lower piece.

Here's what I know...the "width" of that lower piece, that needs to go between the coil ears, needs to be rougly 20 mm. The CTX piece is 20 mm, but then the coil washers stick out a bit farther, maybe 1mm at most on each side. So I would need some nylon washers as well. That's easy. But anyway, 20 mm wide. Then, the other end (the non-coil-bolt end) of this lower piece would either need to slide OVER the bottom of the CF rod, or INTO it. To slide over the outside of the CF rod (which is how it is on the CTX), you'd need to somehow build that lower piece with a hollow tubular end with an inside diameter of like 28.2 to 28.4 mm (to slide over the CF rod). The other option -- as in that 3D-printed Excal piece shown above -- is to slide it INSIDE the CF tube; a 28 mm CF tube has an inside diameter of 26 mm, so the piece that slides inside the tube would need to be like 25.6 to 25.8 mm outside diameter. Just so happens that 25.4 mm is one inch; maybe it could work at 25.4 mm, with the glue/epoxy/whatever filling the rest of the space. I did see some black nylon (nylon 6,6) rods that have an OD of 1" (25.4 mm); perhaps these could be used -- one end sliding into the CF rod, and the the other end sanded flat on each side to a width of 20 to 22 mm to fit between the coil ears? This could be one way of doing it, without having to 3D print anything.

Anyway, I'm not sure what the outside diameter of that 3D-printed Excal piece's rod is, but since stephenscool says it won't work, it must be smaller than 1" (25.4 mm). Otherwise, that might have been able to be "MacGyvered," as he said, to work.

If we can solve this issue (that lower piece), then making these would be pretty easy -- and apparently CHEAP. Where are you getting carbon-fiber rods for $10, stephenscool?

The ONLY other issue, is cutting the slot for the coil wire to fit inside. I'm not sure what the proper tool is for cutting carbon fiber, but I'm sure a hacksaw would work. I'd like to find a way to do it neatly however...

As I mentioned above, are there any others who would be interested in this, assuming I can get it all figured out and make it all work well? I like to think it could be done for less than, say, $40 in parts...

Steve
I live in Asia near the actual factories that produce most of this stuff. I'm not sure what @#$%& is charging but of its on the $100 range or so it's not a bad deal.
Making them would be easy... the challenge I'm considering taking on is reducing the lower shaft , as starters, from 28mm? To something like 15mm. Lowers weight, easier to use in water and bushes.. also easy to pack .
Photo is of an excal that I recently made for a friend. Fraction of the weight and size but super strong. Don't make them for profit.
Doing the ctx is an.entirely different beast. The stumbling block would be the coil cable 。。。where and how to hide it.
Most cf has a thin layer of polyester plastic around the poles... that's why thet feel slippery when wet. I wouldn't suggest sanding it down. If you really want poles pm me with exact size to 0.1mm and I will hook you up.. p m me.. but remember I'm in Asia and shipping isn't cheap. Not at home right now to do actual measurements for the next few days




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Re: Lower rods for the CTX...
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: January 08, 2018 06:30PM
stephenscool --

I am going to send you my email address via PM, so that we can talk a bit more, if you are willing.

If I can get this process ironed out, I am going to make a few...

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

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Re: Lower rods for the CTX...
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: January 08, 2018 07:50PM
Hi all --

I am making progress...

I just heard back from someone I checked with last night, via @#$%& --a carbon-fiber tube seller. I can get 10 Carbon-Fiber tubes, 28mm outside diameter, 26mm inside diameter, and 1 meter long (several inches more than enough length for a lower rod), shipped to me for $269 -- or $26.90 per tube. I am checking with the supplier to see if they could be built to 27.8 mm, for the same price. I will also check with stephenscool.

I will report back; meanwhile -- would anyone here be interested in one or two of these tubes, presuming I go this route? -- no profit desired, just looking to help others out who may be interested. If I can get eight other tubes accounted for (I need two), I could place such an order...

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

Re: Lower rods for the CTX...
Posted by: stephenscool
Date: January 08, 2018 07:59PM
It will likely be a money losing undertaking. A lot of people complain about the aftermarket prices... they're fairly accurately priced for the quality of the item. Takes a lot of experience and business contacts to get to that stage

Re: Lower rods for the CTX...
Posted by: stephenscool
Date: January 08, 2018 09:02PM
Also you will need the exact size. .1mm bigger or smaller might not seem like much.. until it gets wet with rain or in the water

Re: Lower rods for the CTX...
Posted by: sprchng
Date: January 08, 2018 09:20PM
In never stops amazing me to see the compulsion techy people have to complicate an issue.
My two home DIY rods are still working fine after 18 months and I have maybe $6 and an hour of labor in them,,,,,and a mm here or there is immaterial!!
"Simplicity is sublime" was not just a suggestion , it was a recommendation!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2018 09:23PM by sprchng.

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Re: Lower rods for the CTX...
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: January 08, 2018 11:31PM
sprchng --

LOL! I hear you. I tend to "overcomplicated" things. One of my nicknames, given to me by a friend in college, was "hard-way!"

OCD has something to do with it! With that said, the cheap/easy PVC DIY options several of you have shown here are still "on the table" for me. I'd prefer something that strikes a happy medium between "inexpensive" and "looks like the original," but not sure yet if it can be done. If not, I'll opt for the "inexpensive."

But, I want to exhaust my options of building these from carbon fiber, first. If I can secure all the parts/materials needed, for $40-ish per rod, I'm making some.

stephenscool --

Have to disagree with you on the price of the rods. NO WAY should they cost that much. The more I dig into this, the more I'm finding that $20-ish will get ME (a nobody, low-volume buyer) a carbon-fiber rod, and that's buying only one or two. A big company, making a bulk order of 100 or 1000 at a time, and who knows the ins and outs of sourcing materials, etc. I bet they are getting them for $5 or so. Then, that lower piece is simply plastic, and again, sending a "plan" or "prototype" to a place that can produce/fabricate them would likely be do-able for a cost of only a few dollars a pop, at most. I bet those rods don't have more than $15 worth of materials AT MOST in them (the price the companies are paying for them). It's absolutely ridiculous that Minelab's list price on them is like $228!! I have never seen one new, advertised for less than $175. NO WAY is that reasonable, IMO. You can buy a brand-new low-end detector for the cost of ONE LOWER ROD? LOL!

Minelab doesn't seem to understand how many of these they'd sell, if they priced them appropriately. I hunt with several guys who own CTXs. I can think of 4 of us CTX guys, off the top of my head, that ALSO have extra coils for them -- so that's five, including myself. Do you know how many of us have even ONE extra rod? NONE of us. MEANWHILE, all of these same guys, plus several others I hunt with, have, or had, Explorers/E-Tracs, and we all have/had extra coils for those units. You know how many of us had extra rods for the Explorers and E-Tracs? ALL of us. Hmm...what's that tell you? Tells me, if lower rods are priced at around $50 or so (which is what lower rods for Explorers and E-Tracs USED to cost, before Minelab raised their prices across the board a few years back), then MANY people will buy them; but price them at $175, and VERY FEW will buy them. Minelab is, in my opinion, missing the boat here, but that's just me.

ANYWAY, I have been able to source the rods, at whatever custom diameter I want, for $23.88 plus shipping. And that's just my first try, first company, pricing-wise. The dilemma right now is simply that lower piece, where the coil attaches. I'm working on it. If I can source that piece, one way or another, then after that it's nothing but gluing/epoxying, and cutting the tubes to size. I'm buying a digital caliper tomorrow, so I can be sure on the outside diameter of the stock rods, before I go any further...

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

Re: Lower rods for the CTX...
Posted by: stephenscool
Date: January 09, 2018 12:06AM
The cf rods will likely have a thin microscopic layer of polyester plastic around it. Once it gets wet it's slippery like black glass.
The rods are fairly easy to get your hands on. The lower clevis part.. not so easy. 3d printing good quality isn't cheap. You could 3d print a mold and then use that to make the molds... again not cheap. Nylon with glass won't go through a 3d printer.
I can tell you the cz21 lower clevis is almost the same size as the ctx. The cf rod section are not even near the same size.
If you really want the 3d part for the ctx send me a pm.. if you want at least a dozen.
I can't state enough how hard this project will actually be. I've made shafts for almost every detector from scratch. Everything. All parts.

This will be much harder than it seems.. @#$%& has priced that way for a reason.. there's also a reason why nobody competes with them.
Pvc for $20 a mm off and a little tape is 1 thing.. having a product that looks professional and lasts is another.
Photo is of an excal shaft broken down designed for thinness.. I cant emphasize enough how hard your ctx project will be




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Re: Lower rods for the CTX...
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: January 09, 2018 12:24AM
stephenscool -- Nice-looking (and THIN!) Excal shaft there! Nice work!

I have sent you a PM...

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

Re: Lower rods for the CTX...
Posted by: Jeff In North Georgia
Date: January 09, 2018 11:41AM
I did something a little different on the ones I made.
Put the wire hole on the side of the yoke to reduce stress on the coil cable wires.
Also the hole is not as sharp as going through the carbon fiber shaft.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2018 11:58AM by Jeff In North Georgia.




Re: Lower rods for the CTX...
Posted by: trojdor
Date: January 09, 2018 01:53PM
Jeff in NG,

Great idea, and looks like excellent workmanship :thumbup:

mike

Re: Lower rods for the CTX...
Posted by: david.di
Date: January 09, 2018 05:14PM
Jeff In North Georgia, your's is a really good idea :thumbup:.

Thanks for showing.

David Di

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Re: Lower rods for the CTX...
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: January 09, 2018 11:04PM
Jeff,

That is a REALLY NICE-LOOKING lower piece (yoke, clevis, whatever you want to call it). SUPERB. What I would give to find somewhere to produce that exact piece! At that point, it's just a matter of buying the tubes, doing a little epoxy/gluing, some careful craftsmanship, a few tools and supplies, and there is something viable there -- good quality, at a good price.

This is going to work...

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

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