Findmall.com
 
 






Minelab CTX 3030 Detecting Forum


Welcome! Log In Register
avatar
Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: Jason in Enid
Date: February 07, 2018 02:24PM
Quote
sube
Well maybe it's only running through the target trace part of the id circuit and not the audio .There separate but run as one when iding what one does the other does the same . I guess we well never know but pinpoint is deeper than disc so:shrug: sube

I've noticed this as well. There have been some targets that are definitely on the verge of detection depth but they pinpoint loud and clear. I've never tried to use it as a hunt mode though. I think I'd go crazy, most of my sites are full of nails and I'd be glued to the screen constantly. It is something to consider for the spots where you just cant get any more keepers from.

Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: IDXMonster
Date: February 07, 2018 06:11PM
I wonder if “disc vs pinpoint” operation is deliberately set up this way so as to never have an issue pinpointing a target that has been found with disc? Just thinkin’...

avatar
Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: Jason in Enid
Date: February 07, 2018 06:50PM
The water hunters say the Excalibur is deeper in pinpoint than disc for that too. I know some of them hunt in pinpoint mode and use disc to check targets. They call it "reverse discrimination"

Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: sube
Date: February 07, 2018 07:32PM
Quote
IDXMonster
I wonder if “disc vs pinpoint” operation is deliberately set up this way so as to never have an issue pinpointing a target that has been found with disc? Just thinkin’...
Maybe but if you turn off target trace you still are using disc in pinpoint mode if the target is still in range you will get a cursor where the target is suppose to land it won't have any red in it because it's to deep anyway so target trace isn't doing anything for you at fringe depth .

Now on the other hand when we go to pinpoint we don't have ( disc audio ) but we still have audio so maybe getting rid of disc audio and just getting audio is why we see a difference in depth.:nerd: sube
Jason said
I've noticed this as well. There have been some targets that are definitely on the verge of detection depth but they pinpoint loud and clear. I've never tried to use it as a hunt mode though. I think I'd go crazy, most of my sites are full of nails and I'd be glued to the screen constantly. It is something to consider for the spots where you just cant get any more keepers from.

Jason even though your in pinpoint mode nails well double hit one way but I know what you mean lot's of signals .sube



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2018 07:50PM by sube.

avatar
Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: February 07, 2018 07:51PM
Quote
Jason in Enid
The water hunters say the Excalibur is deeper in pinpoint than disc for that too. I know some of them hunt in pinpoint mode and use disc to check targets. They call it "reverse discrimination"

So THAT'S what is meant by those water hunters when they say "reverse discrimination?"

I had heard that term before, and what you say makes total sense; I'd just never put two and two together before.

It's a good day today! I learned something new! ;)

Thanks, Jason!

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

avatar
Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: February 07, 2018 07:53PM
Quote
IDXMonster
I wonder if “disc vs pinpoint” operation is deliberately set up this way so as to never have an issue pinpointing a target that has been found with disc? Just thinkin’...

I think you are exactly right, IDX -- pinpoint MUST be set up on purpose to be "deeper" than disc, so that you DON'T have an issue pinpointing a deep target found in disc. mode. But HOW? HOW do they make it a "deeper" mode, is what I wonder. Like sube said, that signal being used in pinpoint mode is STILL being "processed through an ID circuit" of some sort -- since you still get a VDI and a target trace, as sube alluded to. SO -- SOMEHOW it is deeper, but how? The world may never know... ;)

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

avatar
Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: February 07, 2018 08:01PM
Quote
sube
Now on the other hand when we go to pinpoint we don't have ( disc audio ) but we still have audio so maybe getting rid of disc audio and just getting audio is why we see a difference in depth.:nerd: sube

sube

Perhaps so, sube; perhaps there is an "audio ID" circuit separate from the numerical ID circuit -- i.e. a circuit that assigns proper tones to a receive signal. And maybe if a receive signal does not need to be assigned AUDIO ID (as in in pinpoint mode), but only NUMERICAL ID, then maybe a weaker signal can be used (i.e. a deeper target reported) in pinpoint mode than when running a mode where audio ID is outputted. Who knows...

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: IDXMonster
Date: February 08, 2018 06:51PM
Very good thoughts floating around on this...I’m just curious about every nuance this machine has and always want to know HOW to get the most usefulness out of it. With the CTx you don’t have to try very hard to get usefulness! Damnedest thing I’ve ever seen...

Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: sube
Date: February 08, 2018 09:33PM
Steve said There's no doubt that on some machines with a true, all-metal mode where a more "unprocessed" signal can be monitored by the operator if all-metal mode is selected, you can get "more depth" than you could in disc. mode -- by listening for subtle "threshold wavers" or whatever. And in these cases, "depth" would be "lost" when you switch into disc. mode -- because that "threshold waver" will usually not successfully be assigned an ID within the ID/disc. circuit, and thus is not given an audio tone -- and thus the overall effect is, you can hear "deeper" targets in all-metal mode than you can in "disc." mode. But again, since FBS does not operate in this way (no true all-metal mode, and all receive signals passed through ID/disc. processing, as far as I can tell), then the "rules" that are associated with machines that are deeper in "true all-metal mode" and "not as deep" in disc. mode, don't apply to FBS.

Everybody keeps saying there's no true all metal mode on the ctx well maybe true maybe not . In the case above this is just how the ctx acts say your running 5 for sensitivity you will notice you will loose audio at 3 inches there abouts also the curser is gone so is target trace now we go to pinpoint mode pinpoint mode well go 12 inches on a penny regardless where the sensitivity is set at .Now if we are in pitch hold where that penny cuts out at 3 inches and starts to thunk having pitch hold as sound will give you 1 more inch of depth with audio id but well give you no more of a trace than if you were in normal for sound .

Let's crank it up to 24 for sensitivity now we will get a curser audio id and maybe a little red in the curser at 9 inches with a penny go to pinpoint mode and we can get it at 12 inches again same as being at 5 for sensitivity what I think is happening is once the audio is lost the machine is basically in all metal we don't have a curser we don't have audio id and target trace is gone no disc at all .

Now if we have a target that we still have audio id but is inconsistent and no red in the curser and the curser is jumpy because it's deep say were running at 21 for sensitivity what I do is crank it up to 26 to 30 this well give better audio and more red in the curser to a point audio is always deeper than target trace .But by cranking it up audio and the curser well be better if it's to deep we may get no red but the curser and audio well be there .Now if were running at 21 and go to 30 you will say won't that make the machine more unstable yes but were sweeping a know en target and if we have good coil control we won't get all that noise if we were just hunting running with 30 for sensitivity.

Once we loose audio and the unfilled curser it's deep or very small target shallow . So now we are back to what I say all metal no audio id no curser just audio which is deeper than disc mode about the only disc we have is a double beep on a nail and that's really not disc it just the way nails sound . sube



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2018 09:42PM by sube.

avatar
Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: February 08, 2018 09:57PM
Interesting thoughts, sube...

No doubt it's hard to know exactly what is going on "under the hood." Minelab sure doesn't tell us, so we are left to try to figure it out by what we observe.

It's fun, in a way, trying to figure things out, but frustrating (to me) that we don't have a little more information about some of these things...

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: IDXMonster
Date: February 08, 2018 11:10PM
Pretty cool stuff,mind bending even....these are the types of things that ALOT of hours on a machine will let you know about,and there’s just no other way. I really wonder HOW good the CTX really is,and what else is yet to be discovered about it and the way it operates. It’s hard for me to follow everything said here,so I’ll have to go back and read it again several times.

Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: tcornel
Date: February 09, 2018 07:16AM
At the beach when digging a target sometimes the signal (accepted target) will disappear with the machine running screen one in discrimination mode. No signal, don't know where to dig the next scoop. I switch to screen 2 and I can pick up the signal. If there is no difference in depth why does this happen?

When sweeping with no discrimination (17" coil} I will detect a deep accepted signal. I turn on the discrimination and the only way I get that signal is to slow down the sweep speed. Keeping the same sweep speed will cause the target to be missed.

Am I missing something?

Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: sube
Date: February 09, 2018 01:42PM
Quote
sgoss66
Interesting thoughts, sube...

No doubt it's hard to know exactly what is going on "under the hood." Minelab sure doesn't tell us, so we are left to try to figure it out by what we observe.

It's fun, in a way, trying to figure things out, but frustrating (to me) that we don't have a little more information about some of these things...

Steve
Steve it's not why or how it works it's what it dose that you should be concerned about .If one of the ph guys at minelab tried to explain it to you I don't think you would understand anyway unless he put it into layman terms which he probably could not do either then again if you could understand what the heck he was talking about then minelab might loose some of it's secrets . So I just want to know what it dose and that's what is important to me I could care less how it dose it or why it dose it . You have to know your machine what all the buttons and modes do Andys book is a great start and is very good training great book but that's only a small part of it.

Tcmel said am I missing something
No this is just how the ctx behaves the more disc you use the slower the sweep speed and you will loose targets as you say if you sweep to fast it just can't keep up . But in open screen and little disc the machine is able to keep up why how who cares it's what it dose now running less disc will allow you to cover ground faster because you can sweep faster withouit loosing targets .sube



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2018 01:43PM by sube.

Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: cjc
Date: February 11, 2018 08:45AM
With this detector you're kind of between a "rock" (High Gain Sensitivity) and a "hard place" (a complex, highly processed signal). So you have the choice between a lot of noise and an unfocused signal OR the "sluggishness" of the processing that a closed screen requires. A lot of these UK progs have the right approach ie. "Tadpole". The idea is to stabilize the amount of Sensitivity you want to use. by riding above the iron and ground noises. This makes the Sensitivity usable and unhindered by all the pure open screen crap noises. There's a great quote by DR. Tones in Andy's book that lays this principle out. These sophisticated digital detectors can do some remarkable things. Tests I'm doing with the Impact and Kruzer show that (to a certain extent) they just flat out subtract the iron and EMI and keep right on trucking.
cjc clivesgoldpage.com



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2018 09:00AM by cjc.

avatar
Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: February 11, 2018 05:28PM
Interesting, Clive. VERY interesting. So you think a "tadpole" approach is BETTER than EITHER a "fully open screen," OR a "tight disc. pattern?" Just enough disc. to "knock out the 'false' noises," and no more than that?

I could SEE tadpole being preferable to a tight disc. pattern; it being preferable to a fully open screen though (if my understanding is correct and this is what you are actually saying) is a bit counter-intuitive to me...

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login