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Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: cjc
Date: February 11, 2018 05:54PM
yes, that's what's called signal balancing--just as with a pulse. It allows you to use more sen sensitivity without the noise. But just as with a pulse--its not a setting--its a balance.
cjc

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Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: February 11, 2018 06:12PM
I have ZERO familiarity with pulse machines, so this is a totally new "way of thinking of it" (signal balancing) for me. It's going to take some time to think this through, though on the surface it makes BASIC sense. You describe this in detail in one of your books?

It seems as though what you may be implying is that the MORE signals being discriminated by your pattern, the more the machine is "taxed" in a negative way (processing power, or whatever ,trying to discriminate). SUCH THAT -- you want to "tax" the machine as LITTLE AS POSSIBLE (i.e. discriminate as FEW signals as possible), BUT -- DO discriminate JUST ENOUGH so that the "good" signals "stand out" better from what would otherwise be a bunch of "false" signals (from mineral or EMI)? In other words, NO disc. would be the IDEAL, but given that ground mineral and EMI noise DOES exist, it's better to use a LITTLE discrimination, such that the negative of using a bit of disc. is outweighed by the positive of reducing the "distraction" that the "noise" causes (distraction which can result in missing deep, subtle signals from good targets)?

I guess my question is, the implication is that you are running 50 tones (multi-tone) conductive? Because it would seem that another, equally valid way to do what you are suggesting is just run open screen, and set your FE break point down there at a similar level FE-wise to where "tadpole" discriminates?

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
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Norman, OK

Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: cjc
Date: February 12, 2018 07:02AM
Steve
changing the FE tone break of a detector is an audio change. With a pulse, when you reduce the Delay, you are muting the entire signal--in order to have it "ride above" ground noises and EMI. THEN you can add more power--sparingly--in a balanced way. With the CTX--you can demonstrate the opposite by running open screen and full Sens. Begin with the idea that what a detector does is to separate metal from ground--with open screen the two are joined.--audibly.. So when we begin to block out some low areas of the CTX's reject range-the same thing is being accomplished. This acts to focus the unit's power to where there is less interference--or "tax" as you put it. This is what is meant by "usable Sensitivity." GH's UK "Ghost" program is more along the lines you suggest--FE audio that acts to graduate responses using that metric--but it's generally agreed that FE audio is not as deep as CO.
cjc

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Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: Champ Ferguson
Date: February 12, 2018 09:38AM
This isn't directed at Clive but at pretty much all the ultra-experienced hunters out there that use FBS.

Other than the difficulty of learning all the tones and the "i've always hunted my other machines this way", I still don't understand why someone wouldn't want to run 50 tones instead of 5. There is SO much information in those sounds the FBS machines make and I just don't get why youd want to dumb down your machine. (except in very specific cases, of course. but for general hunting of all valuable targets, I want to hear everything I can)



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Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: cjc
Date: February 12, 2018 10:55AM
I run Andy's Beach as a first search mode all the time and recommend it in my book. I also recommend going back and forth between combined and 50 CO for more information.
cjc

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Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: February 12, 2018 05:51PM
Clive --

I appreciate your patience with my questions; if I ask too many and you don't want to answer any more, I get it...

But, while you are still answering, I will ask.

I understand ENOUGH of pulse detectors that I think I know what you are talking about, with respect to delay. I know that where you set your delay (in ms) affects the size/type of targets your machine can/will "see" and thus report. So I guess from what you are saying, if you set your delay ABOVE the ground response, the machine won't even "SEE" the ground response at all. So THEN -- when you increase sensitivity, you are focusing that sensitivity on ONLY the types of targets the machine can respond to (and NOT the ground, which you "tuned out" through setting proper delay). IF my understanding here is correct, then I get this part.

BUT, transferring that point over to the CTX, I can only KIND OF see how it might relate. When you say that you can accomplish the "same thing" on a CTX (by rejecting some ground signal, using disc.) as you can on a pulse machine (by altering your delay), I'm having some trouble with this logically. Here's why...

On a pulse unit, if you set your machine's delay to where it is BLIND to a particular target, then I can see where the machine is not being "taxed" at all, by that target. It totally doesn't even see it, so by definition it is not having to do any processing of any sort, on that signal. It is BLIND to that target (be it ground, or tiny piece of gold, whatever). But, logically my mind would say that that's not the case on the CTX, unless I'm missing something. Because -- if the ground is causing a return signal that is received by the unit, (i.e. the machine is SEEING some ground response, instead of being "BLIND" to it as in the pulse machine's case) -- then the machine is having to DEAL WITH that signal. Whether you discriminate the response, or not, the machine is still "dealing with it" -- it has to run algorithms to DECIDE whether it is a "discriminated/rejected" signal, or not, right? In my mind, all that "discrimination" does on the CTX is tell the unit to take an already processed/ID'd signal, and then decide whether to assign a TONE to it (if it's an ACCEPTED signal), or to assign SILENCE (blank in the threshold) to it (if it's a REJECTED signal). But either way, it would seem to me (and I could be wrong) that the machine is still DEALING with that signal in it's processing/ID algorithms, right? Just because it "blanks" a rejected signal, does NOT mean it hasn't already had to deal with/process/ID/discriminate that signal.

SO, back to the example of, say, the "tadpole" program, it would seem to me that the machine is having to do the same amount of work-- whether you discriminate the lower portions of your screen, or NOT. Saying it another way -- it would seem to me that no matter how much, or how little, disc. you are using, the machine is still doing the same amount of work. You can leave the screen fully open, or you can run a VERY TIGHT disc. program -- but either way, the machine SHOULD (it would seem to me from a logic perspective) be doing all the same steps...those steps being 1.) Receive signal; 2.) process signal; 3.) ID signal; 4.) decide if the processed/ID'd signal is accepted or rejected; 5.) pass the signal through the audio algorithm and assign it an audio characteristic (a TONE, if it is accepted, or a BLANK if it is rejected). So whether it's a "ground signal" or a "metal target signal," I'm just not seeing how the machine is doing "more" or "less" work when you choose to discriminate some signals, or no signals, or whatever the case may be.

Now, you seem to be saying that the "sensitivity" applies only to accepted, and not rejected signals; that you can "focus the machine" on only accepted signals, because, as you imply, sensitivity is not "applied" to rejected targets (including ground response). BUT -- if that's true, then wouldn't you be able to focus the machine EVEN MORE, from a sensitivity perspective, if you ran MORE disc., and rejected MORE targets? In other words, if the CTX allows me to increase sensitivity ONLY on accepted targets, and NOT rejected ones, then logically it would seem that running even MORE disc. would give even BETTER response on your "accepted" targets, than if your ran MINIMAL disc. (like the tadpole program).

Please understand, I'm not trying to argue or disagree, I'm truly just trying to understand all of this logically, because my understanding of this process has SIGNIFICANT implications as to how to best set up the machine and I' in that stage, as a new CTX user, where I'm trying to learn...

Are there flaws in my thinking here?

Thanks Clive, for your patience with me --

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

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Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: February 12, 2018 06:08PM
Quote
Champ Ferguson
This isn't directed at Clive but at pretty much all the ultra-experienced hunters out there that use FBS.

Other than the difficulty of learning all the tones and the "i've always hunted my other machines this way", I still don't understand why someone wouldn't want to run 50 tones instead of 5. There is SO much information in those sounds the FBS machines make and I just don't get why youd want to dumb down your machine. (except in very specific cases, of course. but for general hunting of all valuable targets, I want to hear everything I can)

Champ --

I am struggling to understand the same thing. WHY WOULD YOU NOT want to run 50 tones?

I have a couple of hunting buddies that run 4-tone combined, and they do extremely well -- I mean EXTREMELY well. They focus their tone profiles specifically on only the targets they wish to dig at a given site -- and they are the best hunters I personally know. BUT -- coming from an Explorer, and being so used to running full multi-tone, and how to mentally process those tones, I am trying to logically process through in my mind how there are not also advantages to be had by utilizing ALL tones made available by the machine, versus just a few. Where I am at right now, in repeatedly grinding this through my mind logically, is that BOTH ways of running can have merit. If there is a site where ALL YOU WANT TO DIG is silver, then setting up a combined mode that gives you a very distinct response tonally to ONLY silver coin IDs, does make some sense. On the other hand, if you are wanting to dig a variety of targets on a given hunt, then 50-tone conductive may be the way to run...

Like I said, I'm still hammering this out in my mind; I ponder this ALOT. Again, my buddies SWEAR that NOT running multi-tone, but instead running combined, is ABSOLUTELY preferred, and they have mind-blowing results to support their argument. But, my mind keeps nagging me; these are such "hunt by ear" machines, that you HAVE to be missing out on information, on nuance, on clues, if you don't utilize the full audio that is available to you, in multi-tone...don't you?

(I ask patience from my two partners -- you know who you are, LOL -- and for you not to kill me for still pondering this; I know you both think I'm insane for not just listening to you -- and dumping my love affair with 50-tone in the trash, and "embracing the dark side" LOL!! I know I'm exasperating you both!!)

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

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Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: Champ Ferguson
Date: February 12, 2018 06:20PM
Steve, what Clive suggests makes sense- flipping back and forth to gain the maximum amount of information. Like I will for example flip between Ground Coin and Ferrous Coin to see how the response changes. But I have just heard too many "whats that weird sound" in 50c that turned out to be interesting targets to want to lump areas together. I am pretty much an audio hunter that uses the screen after I hear something worth investigating.

As to your friends, they may just be so good, that they don't need all that info. (and i say that with all due Respect). I need all the machine help I can get..



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Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: February 12, 2018 07:08PM
Champ --

I agree, and that's often what I do -- switch back and forth. I have a 50-tone mode and a combined mode, and keep one under my "user" button, so I switch back and forth quite often when I hit an "unusual" target. I totally agree with you there.

And yes, I DO think that my friends are SO good, that they don't need all the info. I think that may EXACTLY be it...

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: sube
Date: February 12, 2018 09:38PM
Steve

There you guys go again trying to guess how the ctx works who cares it's what it dose that matters. As far as adding disc the more disc the slower the response is or the slower your swing speed has to be I have videos of this it's the way it is . sube

Champ

As far as 50 tone that's what I used on the explorer till combine came along look at it this way instead of having to listen to each tone that's 50 of them I can bin my nickels and run 29 to 50 all at the same tone 1 tone to listen for what could be easier. One look at the screen when I have a high tone and I get my id it's less taxing sharing the work load with eyes and ears .Then again there's that fe line thing that 50 tones does not have . sube

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Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: February 12, 2018 10:39PM
Sube --

I care! Understanding how the CTX works is, for my type of brain, the way I'm going to understand how to set up and run the machine. The questions I am asking have real implications, for me. Different people, with different types of minds, learn -- and process -- in different ways. I know "my" way is different from many. Many folks say I "major too much in the minors" or "make everything more difficult than it has to be." I get that -- I know that's how my style of analyzing appears, to others. That's OK. It's not something that can be changed! It has a lot to do with why I ended up in the sciences, for a career. It's simply the way I'm wired, sube!

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: sube
Date: February 12, 2018 10:54PM
Steve I gave up along time ago on why and how I ran into to many brickwalls:rage: and dead ends to many times so I just try to understand what it dose .I see said sube were all wired different that's a good thing . sube

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Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: February 13, 2018 12:02AM
Understood. There are definitely many brick walls, but my analytical brain won't give up until I can understand as much as is possible...LOL! It's just the way it is, for me. I'm quirky that way, and always have been. Just ask my wife! LOL!

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: IDXMonster
Date: February 13, 2018 09:44AM
I want to understand how it works to the point at which the information is correct and testable. As soon as guessing kicks in...I’m out.
I absolutely WILL run 50 tone when looking for anything BUT silver coins. Even though I like the audio of the Explorer the best,the CTX is still pretty good to my brain.
As long as what we’re all doing produces the results we want,I don’t think there is a wrong way... but perhaps a better way to some extent at times.

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Re: Disc/Depth
Posted by: Champ Ferguson
Date: February 13, 2018 10:55AM
Yeah IDX, that's one of the beauties of the CTX; there are just so many things you can tweek to help you get it to the way you like to hunt.
sube, I certainly understand personal preference and where you are coming from. And success speaks for itself.
Steve, I think we are alike in our curiosity and wanting to understand. I like lots of info and believe that the more I understand, the better I can be.

Whatever works for you is the Right Answer. And even if it doesn't work but you are happy, then that's a win too. :beers:



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