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Re: CTX 3030 "Tradeoffs"
Posted by: TrpnBils
Date: February 19, 2018 08:27PM
Quote
PryorCreekJoe
That and understanding what a weak deep silver chirp really sounds like.

Can Joe or anyone else that knows what he means elaborate on this? My deepest coin with the CTX was a large cent with a bunch of nails around it a year or two ago at about a foot. I'm curious as to what he's referring to here with what it "really sounds like". Over all, aside from that large cent, I'm disappointed with my lack of deeper targets with this detector.

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Re: CTX 3030 "Tradeoffs"
Posted by: PryorCreekJoe
Date: February 20, 2018 07:00AM
Quote
TrpnBils

That and understanding what a weak deep silver chirp really sounds like.

Can Joe or anyone else that knows what he means elaborate on this? My deepest coin with the CTX was a large cent with a bunch of nails around it a year or two ago at about a foot. I'm curious as to what he's referring to here with what it "really sounds like". Over all, aside from that large cent, I'm disappointed with my lack of deeper targets with this detector.

This one of those things that I just know and is hard to explain but I'll try.
I run Ferrous Coin and have tones assigned to bins. So I only have a maximum of 5 tones or as few as 2 to listen for. My "silver" bin is set up for the highest tone. I can set all the rest of the bins to the same low tone and in reality run in 2Tone if I desire. So it is either a "yes" or a "no" that I am listening for. BUT a 6 inch deep screamer is not a subtle bump in the threshold of a 12+ inch silver. It is just a slight chirp. And if it is tilted and not flat it is fainter than that. You just have to recognize that "bump" above the threshold and investigate it. You have to work the coil around it constantly moving the coil gathering more and more of the signal to discern if it is probably a piece of iron that is giving a false high tone signal or a coin that is just barely sounding. By keeping the coil constantly moving you are gathering more and more info on the target so you can decide to dig or not. The constant movement of the coil is gathering more and more samples of the target and compiling it to decide if it is more silver like or more iron like. It is just like statistics. The more samples (in this case swings of the coil) the higher the degree of accuracy of identifying the target. The only real way of knowing what is under the coil is to dig it up. Just remember the tone and it's subtleties so that you know the next time what you suspect it might be. After a few hundred of these "chirps", you have a pretty good idea what it might be. I also us Black Widow Headphones. They cut out about 24 decibels of ambient noise and have a booster circuit in them. My hearing is bad but they allow me to hear the subtle bump or chirp in the threshold that alerts me to further investigate the target. Personally I like to have a coin and nail co-existing in the hold as they both show up on the screen and I know for sure to dig. Most hunters are swinging the coil just covering as much ground as possible and swinging to fast to even hear the deep coins. I love old hunted out ground as that is where I dig a lot of old deep silver. Hope this helps you understand a little better the deep "slight chirp".

PCJ

Re: CTX 3030 "Tradeoffs"
Posted by: TrpnBils
Date: February 20, 2018 07:17AM
Guarantee I'm one of the ones swinging too fast. I'm really making it an effort to work on that lately, but only getting out for about 2 hours a week makes it really hard not to just burn ground with the coil. I know for a fact I'm missing stuff by doing that, it's just a hard habit to break. What you're saying makes sense, and I appreciate the effort to try and explain it like this. I usually run in Pitch hold mode, and I've definitely had the threshold change to a high tone without it giving an actual response that would show up in normal mode, for example. I wonder if that's maybe something that would be a very deep coin

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Re: CTX 3030 "Tradeoffs"
Posted by: PryorCreekJoe
Date: February 20, 2018 08:28AM
Quote
TrpnBils
Guarantee I'm one of the ones swinging too fast. I'm really making it an effort to work on that lately, but only getting out for about 2 hours a week makes it really hard not to just burn ground with the coil. I know for a fact I'm missing stuff by doing that, it's just a hard habit to break. What you're saying makes sense, and I appreciate the effort to try and explain it like this. I usually run in Pitch hold mode, and I've definitely had the threshold change to a high tone without it giving an actual response that would show up in normal mode, for example. I wonder if that's maybe something that would be a very deep coin

A consistent break in threshold is "something". One sure way of finding out is to dig it. Occasionally it happens to be iron so decayed that it is just more or less a "halo" and you find nothing. I just call it a "ghost hole" and move on to the next target. We have to remember that it is called "Metal" detecting and not "Coin" detecting. LOL The detector is only giving an opinion based on the information that it receives back from the coil. It is not an exact science. Geez, how boring would that be. I love to have a tone give my heart a reason to beat fast. Ha ha
Metal detecting is a lot like golf. If every weekend golfer would slow down their swing to a 3/4 swing, they would take 10 strokes off of their score. When you slow down your swing of your coil, you will hear a lot of targets that other wise are just missed. If you think of your coil as a flashlight and your coil sends out a signal just like a flashlight sends out a beam of light. If you swing a flashlight as fast as you swing your coil you are going to miss seeing a lot of things. You slow down the swing of the flashlight and you may see all kinds of things that you missed by swinging it fast. If my wife says she hears something outside and I go out to investigate, I move that flashlight very slowly to see every square inch that I can to see what was making the noise. Make sense?

Joe

Re: CTX 3030 "Tradeoffs"
Posted by: sube
Date: February 20, 2018 02:22PM
Quote
PryorCreekJoe


That and understanding what a weak deep silver chirp really sounds like.

Can Joe or anyone else that knows what he means elaborate on this? My deepest coin with the CTX was a large cent with a bunch of nails around it a year or two ago at about a foot. I'm curious as to what he's referring to here with what it "really sounds like". Over all, aside from that large cent, I'm disappointed with my lack of deeper targets with this detector.

This one of those things that I just know and is hard to explain but I'll try.
I run Ferrous Coin and have tones assigned to bins. So I only have a maximum of 5 tones or as few as 2 to listen for. My "silver" bin is set up for the highest tone. I can set all the rest of the bins to the same low tone and in reality run in 2Tone if I desire. So it is either a "yes" or a "no" that I am listening for. BUT a 6 inch deep screamer is not a subtle bump in the threshold of a 12+ inch silver. It is just a slight chirp. And if it is tilted and not flat it is fainter than that. You just have to recognize that "bump" above the threshold and investigate it. You have to work the coil around it constantly moving the coil gathering more and more of the signal to discern if it is probably a piece of iron that is giving a false high tone signal or a coin that is just barely sounding. By keeping the coil constantly moving you are gathering more and more info on the target so you can decide to dig or not. The constant movement of the coil is gathering more and more samples of the target and compiling it to decide if it is more silver like or more iron like. It is just like statistics. The more samples (in this case swings of the coil) the higher the degree of accuracy of identifying the target. The only real way of knowing what is under the coil is to dig it up. Just remember the tone and it's subtleties so that you know the next time what you suspect it might be. After a few hundred of these "chirps", you have a pretty good idea what it might be. I also us Black Widow Headphones. They cut out about 24 decibels of ambient noise and have a booster circuit in them. My hearing is bad but they allow me to hear the subtle bump or chirp in the threshold that alerts me to further investigate the target. Personally I like to have a coin and nail co-existing in the hold as they both show up on the screen and I know for sure to dig. Most hunters are swinging the coil just covering as much ground as possible and swinging to fast to even hear the deep coins. I love old hunted out ground as that is where I dig a lot of old deep silver. Hope this helps you understand a little better the deep "slight chirp".

PCJ

Joe I do basically the same as you when hunting deep but I reverse what you do .I hunt in pinpoint sizing then I go to my disc mode .The reason I hunt in reverse is because of falsing if I get a thrown false a metal item that's not under the coil I can find the exact spot that the coin or nail is at then I will switch to disc mode and as you circle the target . Also being in pinpoint I have less falses to contend with pinpoint does not false as much as being in disc mode which let's me check more real targets and less false targets .When circling the known target sometimes I will get a hit with just the tip of the coil now the center of the target is 5 inches away from where the center of the coil is compared to where the target actually is so I know that it's not a false and the sound is coming from the real target but just at the tip of the coil ..

Now when circling the target the first thing with the target at the tip of the coil is it repeating when I go over the center of the target if I get a null and no iron grunt in disc mode I can assume that there are two targets together non-ferrous and ferrous they have cancelled out the audio because you can't have audio from the two tones at once but target trace will still display the non-ferrous and ferrous traces on the screen unless to deep . If the signal turns to iron when I sweep the center of the target with disc mode I leave it .

Now setting
Ferrous coin
pitch hold
Fe line at 34 I have to hear the nails.
Tone profile combine
manual sensitivity at 30 if I can the only thing I'm looking for here is the courser has to be stable and not wondering around the screen .
My nickel bin is set at 1200HZ 12.09 to 12.15 and 12.29 to 12.50 at 1200HZ all the rest are at 300HZ iron bin at 75 HZ
Fast on
Target trace pinpoint sizing and target trace on

Second screen same as first but with 32 to 35 line disc out Fe line can stay at 34 and high thrash as my tone profile ..This is so I don't have to listen to the iron because I have the nails disc out .

Now as for hunting using these settings your going to find that small targets are going to sound , depth the same as deep targets no target trace just sound usually a shallow 4 inch plug gets these and you can move on but if you have a target still in the hole and it sized right both ways then dig it to see what's so deep . Foil and can slaw are set to 300 Hz iron is disc out on screen 2 so the only targets that high tone well be targets in your bins with high tone which eliminates most of the shallow foil and iron .

Clive gave some good advice about discing a little bit just to get rid of the ground noise :thumbup:

These are not a ground covering settings there for finding what others pass over .

As to Jason's ?s on the one way hit this happens when a coin is tight with iron if a part of say a coin under a nail is hit first you will get a response that would be a response with the tip of the coil moving to center the target and it go's by by thinking you have a false things to look for did it go silent over the center of the target is trace building from 12.20 to 12.46 or is the target in the iron bin trying to come out and is not lock in the corner like true iron would be .

Now when running higher sensitivity 23 and up in manual pinpoint sizing dose not have a edge in depth as lower sensitivity #s but it builds a better trace with higher sensitivity . Now if we run auto 23 you will see a depth difference between the 2 not until your at 27 or higher in auto well you see similar depth between the two .

Now when using target trace in pinpoint mode you may have to sweep the target 5 or 6 times to get a trace to show it's just building more trace as you pass over the target more times it could start with no trace but after sweeping and building the target it well become red unless just to deep . sube



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2018 02:32PM by sube.

Re: CTX 3030 "Tradeoffs"
Posted by: cjc
Date: February 20, 2018 06:46PM
NIce info, Joe.
cjc

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Re: CTX 3030 "Tradeoffs"
Posted by: Jason in Enid
Date: February 20, 2018 07:17PM
Great writeup Sube!

You've given me more to play with on future hunts!

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Re: CTX 3030 "Tradeoffs"
Posted by: sgoss66
Date: February 21, 2018 02:08AM
Thanks, guys, for the info in this thread. Excellent, thought-provoking stuff.

Steve



Minelab CTX 3030
Minelab Equinox 800
Garrett ProPointer AT
Lesche hand digger
Lesche 38D Ground Shark "King of Spades"

Norman, OK

avatar
Re: CTX 3030 "Tradeoffs"
Posted by: PryorCreekJoe
Date: February 21, 2018 06:54AM
Quote
sube



That and understanding what a weak deep silver chirp really sounds like.

Can Joe or anyone else that knows what he means elaborate on this? My deepest coin with the CTX was a large cent with a bunch of nails around it a year or two ago at about a foot. I'm curious as to what he's referring to here with what it "really sounds like". Over all, aside from that large cent, I'm disappointed with my lack of deeper targets with this detector.

This one of those things that I just know and is hard to explain but I'll try.
I run Ferrous Coin and have tones assigned to bins. So I only have a maximum of 5 tones or as few as 2 to listen for. My "silver" bin is set up for the highest tone. I can set all the rest of the bins to the same low tone and in reality run in 2Tone if I desire. So it is either a "yes" or a "no" that I am listening for. BUT a 6 inch deep screamer is not a subtle bump in the threshold of a 12+ inch silver. It is just a slight chirp. And if it is tilted and not flat it is fainter than that. You just have to recognize that "bump" above the threshold and investigate it. You have to work the coil around it constantly moving the coil gathering more and more of the signal to discern if it is probably a piece of iron that is giving a false high tone signal or a coin that is just barely sounding. By keeping the coil constantly moving you are gathering more and more info on the target so you can decide to dig or not. The constant movement of the coil is gathering more and more samples of the target and compiling it to decide if it is more silver like or more iron like. It is just like statistics. The more samples (in this case swings of the coil) the higher the degree of accuracy of identifying the target. The only real way of knowing what is under the coil is to dig it up. Just remember the tone and it's subtleties so that you know the next time what you suspect it might be. After a few hundred of these "chirps", you have a pretty good idea what it might be. I also us Black Widow Headphones. They cut out about 24 decibels of ambient noise and have a booster circuit in them. My hearing is bad but they allow me to hear the subtle bump or chirp in the threshold that alerts me to further investigate the target. Personally I like to have a coin and nail co-existing in the hold as they both show up on the screen and I know for sure to dig. Most hunters are swinging the coil just covering as much ground as possible and swinging to fast to even hear the deep coins. I love old hunted out ground as that is where I dig a lot of old deep silver. Hope this helps you understand a little better the deep "slight chirp".

PCJ

Joe I do basically the same as you when hunting deep but I reverse what you do .I hunt in pinpoint sizing then I go to my disc mode .The reason I hunt in reverse is because of falsing if I get a thrown false a metal item that's not under the coil I can find the exact spot that the coin or nail is at then I will switch to disc mode and as you circle the target . Also being in pinpoint I have less falses to contend with pinpoint does not false as much as being in disc mode which let's me check more real targets and less false targets .When circling the known target sometimes I will get a hit with just the tip of the coil now the center of the target is 5 inches away from where the center of the coil is compared to where the target actually is so I know that it's not a false and the sound is coming from the real target but just at the tip of the coil ..

Now when circling the target the first thing with the target at the tip of the coil is it repeating when I go over the center of the target if I get a null and no iron grunt in disc mode I can assume that there are two targets together non-ferrous and ferrous they have cancelled out the audio because you can't have audio from the two tones at once but target trace will still display the non-ferrous and ferrous traces on the screen unless to deep . If the signal turns to iron when I sweep the center of the target with disc mode I leave it .

Now setting
Ferrous coin
pitch hold
Fe line at 34 I have to hear the nails.
Tone profile combine
manual sensitivity at 30 if I can the only thing I'm looking for here is the courser has to be stable and not wondering around the screen .
My nickel bin is set at 1200HZ 12.09 to 12.15 and 12.29 to 12.50 at 1200HZ all the rest are at 300HZ iron bin at 75 HZ
Fast on
Target trace pinpoint sizing and target trace on

Second screen same as first but with 32 to 35 line disc out Fe line can stay at 34 and high thrash as my tone profile ..This is so I don't have to listen to the iron because I have the nails disc out .

Now as for hunting using these settings your going to find that small targets are going to sound , depth the same as deep targets no target trace just sound usually a shallow 4 inch plug gets these and you can move on but if you have a target still in the hole and it sized right both ways then dig it to see what's so deep . Foil and can slaw are set to 300 Hz iron is disc out on screen 2 so the only targets that high tone well be targets in your bins with high tone which eliminates most of the shallow foil and iron .

Clive gave some good advice about discing a little bit just to get rid of the ground noise :thumbup:

These are not a ground covering settings there for finding what others pass over .

As to Jason's ?s on the one way hit this happens when a coin is tight with iron if a part of say a coin under a nail is hit first you will get a response that would be a response with the tip of the coil moving to center the target and it go's by by thinking you have a false things to look for did it go silent over the center of the target is trace building from 12.20 to 12.46 or is the target in the iron bin trying to come out and is not lock in the corner like true iron would be .

Now when running higher sensitivity 23 and up in manual pinpoint sizing dose not have a edge in depth as lower sensitivity #s but it builds a better trace with higher sensitivity . Now if we run auto 23 you will see a depth difference between the 2 not until your at 27 or higher in auto well you see similar depth between the two .

Now when using target trace in pinpoint mode you may have to sweep the target 5 or 6 times to get a trace to show it's just building more trace as you pass over the target more times it could start with no trace but after sweeping and building the target it well become red unless just to deep . sube

Sube,

It looks like I may do some tweeking and trying something new this weekend. Never to old to add a new technique to my skillset. I need to pull your youtubes up and do some visual studying.

thanks,
Joe

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Re: CTX 3030 "Tradeoffs"
Posted by: PryorCreekJoe
Date: February 21, 2018 07:04AM
Quote
cjc
Those are some extreme settings, Joe--kind of what the UK hunters talk about "winkleing" coins through the noise. Certainly agree with you about the coil control. I have a sense though that like a pulse, a high gain signal will return a cleaner response with something to seperate the ground signal from where your targets are--up in the plus zeros. Even a single disc line. Probably make the coil control task easier. This works well for me in salt and I've gotten a few very deep rings with the 17" coil that way.
cjc

Clive,

Looks like some tweaking is in the works for my next outing this weekend if we thaw out in time. I will try a line of discrimination as you suggest and see how it works on my sites. I need to pay a little more attention to Jason's suggestion of the bottom right corner as I tend to dig before looking to much. And I might at some Sube magic and do some reverse hunting as it lines too lines up with adding a line of discrimination and I can play with all three ideas and tweaks. This has been a really good thread.

Joe

PS I got your 3030 books yesterday and since we were iced in, I got to do some good reading last night. Looks like good stuff as usual.

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