about li-ion batteries and the F series

[dfmike]

I'm still using alkaline batteries in my detectors but the price of good 9v batteries is starting to get me down. I'm about to switch to rechargeables. The manual states that ni-mh can be used. Are li-ion batteries OK ? Thanks.

 

[still looking 52]

Mike, both my brothers use rechargeable batteries in their detectors and they are the F70 and the F75 without any problems. My F5 goes forever on two nine volt batteries. I get over 40 hours on a set. I finally let my batteries in my F5 get low enough to figure out how it would show that the batteries are getting low, what happens is the volt meter starts oscillating up and down instead of staying steady.

 

[MarkCZ]

Well your not getting a lot of responses to your post so, lets see if I can help.

9 Volts DC (battery) is 9 Volts!
The ma's only means a longer or shorter run time, so a 250ma isn't going to last as long as a 500ma battery will.

I don't see the need for li-ion batteries in a metal detector I'd say there better served in maybe medical equipment, but they will work in your detector.
I use the newer Ni-Mh LSD (Low Self Discharge) and a little smart charger for them and they work great, with the low self discharge
they even work for a back up set, they have about a one year shelve life.

They are lots of good rechargeable's on the market and the ones I found to stay away from are the Rayovac's.
Below is a picture of what I use and I order them from batteryjunction dot com.
These will last several LONG DAY HUNTS for sure, or until your arm falls off, which comes first.

Mark

 

[dfmike]

Thanks Mark. I saw those on Amazon for a reasonable price. The only reason I thought about going li-ion was because of the mah ratings which seem to favor the li-ion batteries by a long shot. Most of the ni-mh types that I have seen don't have the same amount of power reserve. The li-ion I was looking at are rated at 600 mah and some are even higher than that. Since you mention the ni-mh's will last several long day hunts, it's good enough for me.

 

[sprchng]

I have been using the EBL lithium 600mah in my Garrettt pinpointer for a couple of years or so and they are amazing. I bought them when I still had the CZ3d and kept the batteries when I sold it and hadn't charged them for a couple of years. The first trip in the Garrett and one lasted for 4 months of heavy detecting before it finally quit. I always carry a spare in my pouch because when they die , they die quickly and completely , no detecting for a half hour after the first warning

 

[dfmike]

Thanks sprchng. Those are the ones I had in mind at first. There is a good sale on those EBL for 2 with charger. The ni-mh types by the same company are a little bit more expensive. Not sure why.

 

[sprchng]

That doesn't make sense but , who knows?
EBL also has a 280 mAh battery in 9v , I made that mistake the first time and have never used them

 

[dfmike]

That doesn't make sense but , who knows?
EBL also has a 280 mAh battery in 9v , I made that mistake the first time and have never used them

Ordered those EBL's before I read your last post (the ni-mh kind. I got them today. They were charged when I got them. I put them in my F19 and did about 3 hours of hunting. The display still shows 3 bars out of 3. I'm hoping they will last me at least about 9-10 hours before I need to recharge.

 

[always diggin 2]

EBL 855 4 Bay 9V Li-ion Battery Charger with 4 Pack 600mAh 9V 6F22 Low Self-Discharge Lithium-ion Rechargeable Batteries

Price: $62.99
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In Stock
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Size: 9V + Charger



• Battery: 6F22 9V 600mAh rechargeable li-ion batteries
• Package: 4 pack rechargeable 9V battery and a 9V li-ion battery charger
• This charger can charge 1~4 pcs 9V li-ion battery
• Recommended for smoke alarms, professional audio and medical devices
• Only charging for one or more 9v Lithium battery,do not charging for other type of batteries

I BEEN USING THESE IN MY F2 FOR OVER TWO YEARS NOW.. LOVE UM NEVER A PROBLEM..

 

[juit]

Powerex 9.6 volt the other mentioned are 8 volts

 

[MarkCZ]

Powerex 9.6 volt the other mentioned are 8 volts

Now you going over the 9volt rating!
An electronic device that's built to run on 9volts actually operates at a range of 5 -7 volts, there is a regulator that cuts out the over voltage, but its only rated to do so to a certain point then the regulator burns out.
9.6volts, or 24 volts isn't going to give your detector more power, or more run time, but at some point enough over voltage can damage the regulator.

Mark

 

[juit]

Never said anything about power, try using a rechargable 8.2 volt on a pointer

 

[MarkCZ]

Never said anything about power, try using a rechargable 8.2 volt on a pointer

I've only used the rechargeable's that I mentioned above in my Pro-pointer sense it was NEW and they work PERFECT!
I've not seen a device that runs on a 9 volt DC (in modern times) that doesn't work correctly above 7 volts, I know that at lest two of my detectors that operated on 9 volt batteries didn't give a LOW battery warning until the 5volt range, meaning that they actually operated at 5 volts.

The 9.6volt may be fine, but I question the over voltage more than I would the under 9volts.

Mark

 

[sprchng]

I was actually a bit disappointed when I checked the voltage on my lithium EBL batteries after charging and they only maxed out at about 8.5 to 8.7. The difference is that they maintain that voltage FOREVER , and it's plenty to run a pinpointer or anything else I have put them in. There's is no comparison to alkaline just like there's no comparing deep cycle lead acid or AGM type batteries to the new lithium batteries,,,,except the cost. A 12 volt trolling motor battery that's lithium will deliver the full 12 volts until it is exhausted without injuring the battery and can be recharged thousands of times while a SLA battery has the voltage begin tapering down after about 50% discharge , and draining it much more than that starts damaging the battery itself which is why the lead acid batteries have such a short recharging cycle before they are toast. Clearly the lithium have a more costly initial investment but they pay for themselves quickly in far better performance and endurance if you are going to use them at all.

 

[juit]

So the powerx, they mantain the 9 volt more time ive been using them for a while in paintball guns theve never let me down

 

[MarkCZ]

So the powerx, they mantain the 9 volt more time ive been using them for a while in paintball guns theve never let me down

A paint ball gun most likely isn't like an electronic device like a metal detector is. The paint ball gun velocity (performance) probably drops off a little as battery voltage drops, just like a flashlight gets a little dimmer as the battery voltage drops. Metal detectors are not like that, they don't lose performance as the battery drops because of the internal regulator feeds the electronics a lesser voltage than the supplied power supply (the batteries) So, a trolling motor if ran at top speed will most likely have a slight speed decrease as the battery voltage drops.

But. for all intent purpose its not a good comparison for AGM batteries (Absorbed Glass Matt- Starved Cell lead acid), Flooded cell lead acid batteries), lithium boat batteries and paint ball gun batteries, and batteries for electronics like metal detectors.

No! metal detectors do not get dimmer like a flashlight as battery voltage falls off. They do what they do until the battery voltage drops below what the electronics is actually operating at, many 9 volt electronics are actually running at 5 volts, and at,
9 volts of incoming voltage the regulator is filtering out 4 volts, and at,
8 volts of incoming voltage the regulator is filtering out 3 volts,
7 volts of incoming voltage the regulator is filtering out 2 volts.
and so on.

But standard batteries (Non Rechargeable) starts out at a certain voltage, will say 9 volts and as they are used the voltage drop is continuous, but the rechargeable's do not do that! they run at their rated voltage with almost no drop in their cycle until the very end of the cycle and then they avalanche and die very quickly.

So, if a Ni-Mh battery is rated at 8 volts and its a higher milliamp then it will hold the 8 volts until the end of its cycle. So its not about, 7.2 volts, 8 volts, 9 volts, or even 9.6 volts! its about how much operation time do you get for the money your spending before the whatever volt rating of the rechargeable avalanches.
The theory of a 9.6 volt has farther to drop than the 8 volt just doesn't hold water in the case of metal detectors!
The rechargeable's I use will hold up to TWO VERY long days of hunting and then some and if I check their voltage its the same as it was when I started, the numbers DO NOT TICK DOWN! this would be bad for a trolling motor in that you would be going along and your motor would feel fully powered and then it would just stop, sort of like the way a gasoline engine does when it runs out of gas.

So, a lot of people come to the table with a correct thought process of a battery and then they carry that thinking into every application, its not that its wrong thinking, it just doesn't carry over from a boat motor, to a paint ball gun, to a metal detector.

Mark

 

[juit]

Wrong about paintball guns newer ones are fully computerized but ill try to keep on the initial topic, lve read that some MD like fisher f5 run even better on 20 volts its just an example, my tesoros didnt like rechargables batts, yes you can use the 8.2 volts and we can keep this going on and on but at the end i will trust a batt that gives me the voltage that the manufacturer tells me to run his MD

Ive even asked the same question to a fisher tech and between both he told me to use the hi voltage one instead of the lower one if he was me

 

[MarkCZ]

Wrong about paintball guns newer ones are fully computerized but ill try to keep on the initial topic, lve read that some MD like fisher f5 run even better on 20 volts its just an example, my tesoros didnt like rechargables batts, yes you can use the 8.2 volts and we can keep this going on and on but at the end i will trust a batt that gives me the voltage that the manufacturer tells me to run his MD

Ive even asked the same question to a fisher tech and between both he told me to use the hi voltage one instead of the lower one if he was me

You can hear a lot, but I'm pretty sure if Dave_J was to chime in on the issue of running 20 volts through an F5 he would tell you that it would for sure fry it.
I've also own a few Tesoro's,
2 Tejon's and a Vaquero and I ONLY ran the NI-MH in them without an issue.
Your not gaining more horse power by running HIGHER voltage through a metal detector! the circuits that does the processing (detecting) do not see or receive the increase!!! more to the regulator doesn't put more out of it! it will regulate it to its rated output, but it only has so much that it can handle, go over that and its toast.

If it runs on a 9 volt Alkaline and it will run right for SEVERAL hours and not lose performance then its running on less than 9 volts (it only started out at 9v) that means that is has the ability to run at a lower voltage than 9v or every hour you would have to replace the battery! They will at lest run correct into the 7 volt range, and I know for a fact that many will run down to 5v range.

I also would discourage telling people on a public forum that if they power up their detectors with super high voltage that they are going to gain performance, its not true!

And I'll not debate paint ball guns with you on a metal detecting forum, but I bit you you was to hook up maybe 30 or so volts to one that the paint ball would probably burst in the barrel from excess velocity.

Mark

 

[juit]

9 volt batt initially run at 10 volts ive seen some industrial at 10.5, the post about using full 20 volt on a f5 was from a guy in ukraine that is crazy on this detectors Im currently running a f5 with this batts and its really killing with this batts maybe is my imagination who knows, as far I know amps fry electronic more easy than a small increment in voltage

 

[MarkCZ]

9 volt batt initially run at 10 volts ive seen some industrial at 10.5, the post about using full 20 volt on a f5 was from a guy in ukraine that is crazy on this detectors Im currently running a f5 with this batts and its really killing with this batts maybe is my imagination who knows, as far I know amps fry electronic more easy than a small increment in voltage

Anytime you increase voltage the flow of current increases (as long as the power supply has the current available), if the regulator is tough enough or has enough headroom to handle the overage then it will dissipate the heat but so the operating electronics don't have to. In the early days of lets say the Teknetics 9000/B I had which operated on 14 AA batteries the electronics where not very energy friendly, and about 6" of depth was all you could get, electronics now are so efficient that the the Omega 8000 will run for days on a single 9 volt battery and I dug a good bit of stuff at 8" to 9" deep (meaning coins).

If you put 20 volts through a electronic device that's designed to operate @ 9 volts which means that the Watt rating for the power handling components would have a rating for that much more power, if you double the voltage using a battery then the watt rating of the electronic components is exceeded by a LOT! That it turn means that the components will over HEAT faster than they can dissipate heat and they burn out (Fry)
As the watt rating for electronics goes up so does its size and the greater need for venting and highly conductive heat sinks,
You have electrical watt rating on components like,
1/8 Watt,
1/4 Watt,
1/2 Watt,
1 Watt,
5 Watt
and so on.
One way they were able to scale down the size of metal detectors where to get more out of the electronic with using less power, these newer detectors sip power, the Watt rating is WAY down the scale. To jump from 1981 with a triple size detector housing that also packed in 14 AA batteries to 2017 and swinging a 1/3 the size detector that has only ONE 9 volt battery is amazing!

There is three sides to electrical power,
Volts, Amps, and Watts.

Mark