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And The Detector Is.....

A

Anonymous

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The Garrett GTI 2500! I've been told that it is scary in the All metal mode. Can the Deepstar beat those depths on larger objects? What are the characteristics that make for a good cache hunting PI machine. In a few days I'll be getting the new 12.5" coil and I'll be seeing how much deeper it can go than the 9.5. More later.
 
Hi John,
Although an air test can be a useful indicator of basic detector performance, it often bears little relationship to
 
Eric,
To test the coil's depth performance without digging holes is to scan the coil back and forth on the surface and then raise the target above the coil until it cuts out. Would this give an accurate indicator of how a PI and VLF would find the target if it was buried in the ground.
Toni.
 
I had a Garrett 2500 and got incredible air tests on coins and other objects. Took it in the tough mineralization here in the Ozarks, and was lucky to get 2-3 inches on a penny. In some areas, falsing drove me nuts. I wish the detector companies would all build there machines here. It is a challenge in this soil.
Also, I would not worry too much about extreme depth if you are looking for a can or jar of coins. Very few people that buried money, buried it shallow. It was easier to bury shallow and easier to re-dig shallow. Digging a deep hole takes time, and the owners did not want any others to notice them digging. Also, they buried the coins shallow so they could quickly recover the money if needed. Most of the jars of coins that I know have been recovered, were dugged up very shallow. If you can locate the chicken barn, check there first. Many farmers buried their money there for security purposes. The chickens were their automatic alarms.
 
Hi Toni,
Unfortunately not. With the coil held in the air, the field pattern is the same above the coil as below it. Wave a coin above or below the coil and you will get the same range and response. However, with the coil held just above the ground, the field pattern under the coil will be modified by the conductive and magnetic properties of the ground, but the pattern above the coil will remain virtually unaffected. In other words, there can be a big difference between the signal given by an object that is actually buried in the ground and sitting a coil on the ground and waving an object above it. There is no real substitute for testing a detector on buried objects, although the results will vary from soil to soil.
Eric.
 
Hi Eric
Are you sure of that? Jim S. said the opposite on this forum (I think) a year or two ago when he said you could test it yourself by detecting your pick at different heights above the coil depending on the degree of mineralization.
 
Hi Peter,
I am certainly not answering for Eric, but Eric is absolutely correct. There can be a significant depth differences when comparing air tests or on the top of the ground tests against actual buried target tests. In fact, I have personally seen the appearance of a slight increase in distance a target can be detected when placed on the ground. On might think this increase would also show up when actually burying targets, but it doesn't. As Eric stated, when a target is on the ground, the ground mineralization alters the radiated signal which can may the target to be detected farther than an actual air test. This same mineralization will also cause a reduction in real depth when conducting buried tests. In many cases, the depth differences will be more pronounced on a VLF in the discrimination mode than the all-metal mode. These buried depth losses are really obvious in some gold producing ares where the ground mineralals change every few feet. Strangely, even the moisture content of the ground can effect depth capabilities.
One of the nugget hunting clubs I used to belong to used to scrape an area which was subsequently hunted by several people all using VLF detectors. About every detector manufacture was represented. All would see ground conditions change from very little mineralization to "hot" red clay, to "really hot" greenish clay, and all would see depth losses between the ground changes be as much as 50%. It was also a standard practiced to hunt every day after and as the ground would dry out, a few more nuggets would be found.
I personally experimented by burying a piece of lead in the different types of ground and compared depth differences. The experiementation reflected what we already knew. Depth losses could be as much as 50%. Yet if you placed the same target on the ground, it didn't reflect the same losses. My experiementation was done to find out the losses as well as to try to find the best settings of a detector to overcome the problems encountered.
Reg
 
HI TOM FROM NOVA SCOTIA. YOU CAN ALSO TRY BY THE FENCE POSTS ON OLD FARMS FOR THOSE JARS OF COINS. BIG THING IN THIS PROVINCE AS NO ONE IN THE "OLDER" DAYS TRUSTED BANKS. AS FOR FALSING HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM HERE ON THE HIGH SIDE OF BEACHES AS THE MINERAL IN THE ROCKS DRIVES MY OLD CDC CRAZY. IN AREAS WHERE THIS PROBLEM DOES NOT EXSIST YOU CAN TURN YOUR DEEPTH TO MAX AND DISCRIMINATION OFF. BIG NOT SO SECRET SECRET IS TO GO SLOW AND KNOW YOUR MACHINE. HAPPY HUNTING FROM LOWER SACKVILLE NOVA SCOTIA
 
Hi again Peter,
I forgot to ask if Jim S. was referring to Jim Straight. If it is, can you tell me what forum he is conducting. I owe him an appology for not getting back to him regarding his idea of a standardize glossary for metal detecting.
Thanks,
Reg
 
Hi Reg
Thanks for the response. But I'm wondering if you thought I was saying place the target on the ground and wave over it. I meant place the coil on the ground and wave the target above the coil, the theory being that you will get a similar reduction in depth to a buried test. I must admit I haven't been able to notice this effect in practice, however Jim S. is BY FAR the most knowledgeable (and successful) detector prospector I know so I thought it worth mentioning.
Jim S. is not Jim Straight.
 
Thanks Peter,
The Jim Straight I know is also very well known in the prospecting circles. He is into recreational prospecting, more so in hard rock mining. His knowledge of geology is outstanding and is reflected in the articles he writes for Lost Treasure, Western & Eastern, and the California Mining Journal.
I did missunderstand you and the concept involved. I have never really tried the technique you mentioned, but I will. It is an interesting idea that the ground mineralization could enhance the signal above the coil.
Since electromagnetic fields follow the path of least resistance, I suppose the ground mineralization might have a tendency to concentrate the field above the coil. Anyway, it is worth investigating.
Thanks for the info.
Reg
 
Reg, it seems you still don't fully understand me :eek:) The idea is that high mineralization beneath the coil will reduce the detection range above the coil, similarly to if the target was buried in the same ground. As I said, I haven't noticed this by testing myself, so when you try please let me know your results.
Jim said something like the depth loss is because the return signal has travelled through the mineralized ground.
 
Peter,
I think I understand now. Place the coil on the ground and move the target above the coil. Compare that depth to the depth of passing a coin past the top of the coil with the coil in the air.
If that is correct, I just tried two different detectors and saw almost no difference between the two conditions. This is testing using a nickel as a target and where the ground is heavily mineralized due to iron oxides.
The test was done using two VLF's, one nugget hunting type and the other a modified coin hunting detector, both in the all-metal mode.
Here, just dragging a magnet in the dirt a few inches creates a large "fur" ball. Basically, the ground here is much more reactive than conductive (more iron oxides and fewer salts). Using the technique George Payne showed me years ago to determine ground mineralization, the ground here would be classified as extremely minerallized.
I will test again later, trying more detectors.
Reg
 
Hi Reg and Peter,
Magnetic fields and their reaction with the surrounding medium is a complex subject and there are many different things that can happen. My observations with PI show that what goes on under the coil does affect the field above it. I remember having an email discussion with Chris Hake in Kalgoorlie which started when I reported that I could detect a small gold nugget much better when it was underneath a lump of strongly iron mineralised laterite. Chris reported that when using an SD2200 in the field, he got less range in highly mineralised ground than you would in an air test. In fact, if I remember correctly, there seemed to be a depth limit beyond which you would detect nothing. If you then bulldozed a few inches off the surface, nuggets would again be detected. Both observations appear to be correct; I was using an isolated lump which concentrated the field to the nugget whereas in practice a large area under the coil dissipates the field laterally and you get less range. I ran a computer simulation of this which visually showed the effect on the lines of flux from the coil. They behave a bit like elastic bands in that if you pull or push them on one side of the coil then there is a corresponding reaction on the other. Some iron minerals give a signal as well as distorting the field and others distort the field only. Add to this any conductive effects of the ground and the situation becomes ever more complex, particularly for induction balance detectors.
Eric.
 
Hi Eric,
Thanks for the info. I am curious as to the program you are using simulate the flux distortion.
My observations regarding finding a nugget under or along side a highly mineralized rock (or a lump of mineralized soil) takes on two different senarios.
First, with VLF's, the detection of the nugget under a "hotrock" becomes much more difficult, and in many cases, almost impossible unless the detector is carefully adjusted for absolute minimum response or slightly positive response from the rock itself. Adjustment of the detector is extremely critical. If there is even the slightest negative response from the rock (ie the detector goes quiet) even a large nugget (ie 1/4 to 1/2 oz) can be ignored. It is easy to show how a golfball sized rock can easily hide a 1/2 oz nugget even if they are both very close to the coil.
My limited experience with PI's, on the other hand, indicates easy detection and possibly an enhancement of the gold when under or along side a hotrock. It has been my contention all along that the SD series aren't necessarily finding more nuggets simply because of increased depth capabilites, but because the iron oxide "hotrocks" do not masked or hide the nuggets on a PI like they do on a VLF.
On the downside, my limited experience with PI's shows that "hotrocks" such as magnetite and other simular members of the iron oxide family are detected as a positive target, as is gold. Obviously, detectors like the Goldscan and the SD series have additional circuitry to "subtract" the rock response. (I would add again that my Goldscan does an excellent job of elimininating most of the "hotrocks" and still easily find a nugget beneath or along side of it.) This is something extremely difficult to do with a VLF.
I have been experimenting with the Mark Stuart PI design to see how PI's work. I have found that shortening the pulse duration appears to effect the intensitity of the "hotrock" signal.
I have also been experimenting with different forms of autotuning, autotuning speeds, etc added to this detector. So far I have found a single high pass filter is extremely difficult to design to get the right autotune speed that doesn't lose depth and still maintain a constant threshold. However, I have just begun to experiment with a two filter design (4 filter if you count the low pass filters), and it shows promise. The trick is to find the ideal time constants for maximum sensitivity and maintain the minimum ground response. Right now, it appears this approach does a very acceptable job of typical ground signal elimination and still maintain high target sensitivity.
Getting back to the fundamentals, in my opinion, PI's show a very clear advantage as a detector of choice for hunting gold nuggets, especially if the hotrock and ground responses are minimized.
Again, my opinion is based upon limited PI experience, but extensive VLF knowledge and experience using and/or owning 10 or so different models of gold machines spanning most of the major manufacturers.
Sorry to keep altering the topic towards the subject of nugget hunting, but like I have said before, there are a lot of people like myself who are yearning for a light weight, reality priced, nugget hunting detector that gives them that added depth. I believe a PI design is the answer.
Reg
 
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