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Ground balance??

A

Anonymous

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Eric, Reg, whoever.I'm new to all this PI stuff.Learning by osmosis, thanks to this and other linked sites.Thanx to all contributors.
I want to understand more about the problems of ground balance in PI's , and iron rejection ie Candy's long/ short pulses. I'm a AF/RF tech-head .
Eric's great machines dont use (I believe] the short/long pulses and probably have superior coils ie low capacitance .
Why does everyone want ground balance , and if I may be so humble , what are the problems,costs etc to satisfying them? Sounds lie a winner, Eric if you can give it to them. Obviously, trade secrets, etc , but many heads are often better than one.
regards Allan.
 
Allan, I can't answer the tech questions but, with a ground balance circuit you are eliminating most of the signals caused by the mineralization, which allows you to hear the fainter signals from deeper/smaller targets. This is a big plus in gold country. I guess with a PI it should not actually be called ground balancing, but something elese?
HH, Tom
 
Hi Allan,
Boy, you have asked the key questions about PI's. Unfortunately, the answers could fill a book so I will try to just touch on a few things that I have observed. As for the details, if we could just get Eric to write the book, I know I would buy it in a hearbeat since most of my knowledge has come from him.
Ground balance is required when certain ground conditions create signals that sound much like one large continuous target deep target beneath the coil. The closer the coil gets to the ground, the louder the response. Under such conditions, one has to keep the coil very level above the ground to reduce the audio variations caused by the ground if no ground balance is present.
Now, the objective of ground balance is to eliminate the signals caused by the ground and to do this, about the only way I know of, is to perform some form of subtraction process such that the signal being subtracted is equal to the offending ground signal. If this is done, then the ground response is minimized.
I say minimized because the ground response is not linear, so any form of simple subtraction will not be equal over the range of signal changes that occur as the coil is lowered. The shorter the delay, the more likely will be the degree of error. Now, to compound matters, certain targets will have responses such that they are very similar to the ground signals, so they will be eliminated also.
If the pulse is lengthened, then the ground signal characteristics change. Also, if the primary sample is taken a little later, a subtract process will require a different subtraction ratio which will then cause different objects to be ignored. Finally, if the target signals from the two different pulse lengths are combined, a full range of targets can be detected.
Discrimination is another can of worms even if just iron objects are to be rejected. The reason lies in the fact that iron objects span a wide range of target responses. Large or thick iron object decay signals look nothing like signals from something like a piece of an old tin can.
Simple delay techniques may minimize the digging of only certain iron items (i.e. large or thick iron) while other pieces of ferrous metal (pieces of tin cans) will respond more like a good target. Now, flip things around and we will see a large non-ferrous target such as a very large gold nugget may respond much like a iron object by having a long decay time. So, the design of a good discriminating PI is much more complex than most people realize.
As for the cost factor, this is in Eric's field. I can say that the only way advancements will be made is through research. This takes time, a lot of time. To be done right, almost requires full time research and since people have to make a living, then some means have to be made to pay for such research. Normally, the recovery of such costs is incorporated into the cost of a detector. Finally, one should also realize that it is not uncommon in the industry for it to take 1 to 2 years to develop a new detector and this is true if the person is working on it full time.
With this in mind, we should really admire Eric. Designing detectors is a full time job, building detectors is a full time job, and answering questions on this forum as well as emails, almost becomes a full time job. So, he is doing the job of 3 people. I know, I couldn't do it.
It is because of the latter that I have a tendency to jump in and try to answer some of the questions. Like I said before, most of what I know about PI's has come from the guidance of Eric, so, I try to provide answers and reduce Eric's load somewhat. I just hope he doesn't mind and I also hope he will jump in and correct any errors I may state. To error is human and I have found that I can be extremely human at times.
Reg
 
Hi Tom NW MI
maybe we should call it "Ground Adjustment".
Chris
 
Reg ,Tom, Chris. Thanks for your helpful replies.
It'll take me a while to digest it all .
Reg, when you say subtraction, do you mean like a DC voltage offset on one input off an opamp?
Is the auto track facility on Carl's PI-1 opt 1 , like auto ground balance , and the threshold control the GB setting control?
Maybe I'm totally confused.
regards, Allan.
 
Hi Allan,
I probably should have been a little more specific when I said subtraction process. Normally, the main sample is taken very quickly, lets say at 15 usec. Now, if a second sample is taken maybe at 30 to 40 usec, this second sample can be amplified and subtracted from the main sample. The key is the second sample has to have sufficient ground signal to be amplified to produce the desired results. The down side of this process is the fact that the additional sampling and amplification also samples and amplifies noise, so the addition of a ground balance can cause the detector to be much noisier. Another negative side effect is the fact that all signals are subtracted, so any other signals from desireable targets are also subtracted.
I have never tried to sample during the on time but I guess it could be done also.
Like I said before, this subtraction process is not perfect on any PI that I know of. That is why even the more expensive PI's suffer from some ground noise in really bad ground, especially with a mono coil.
The autotrack feature on Carl's PI is more of an autotune circuit which is the next best thing to ground signal reduction, outside of a DD coil.
Autotune circuitry works on the principle that ground signals are normally much slower responding signals than a target response. The average hearing cannot tell the difference but the circuitry can. So, if a simple filter is used to try to block or reduce the slower signals and allow the faster ones to pass, one can reduce the ground response and sort of separate it better from the signal of a buried objed.
Now, with an autotune type circuit, if the threshold changes due to an increase is ground signal, the autotune will try to reset itself back to the original threshold. The autotune rate determines just how fast this happens.
The most simple autotune circuit is an a/c coupled circuit, meaning the signal has to go through a capacitor. On Carl's "autotrack" circuit C 19 and R34 (RC circuit) form the autotune circuit. By making R 34 adjustable, one can adjust just how fast the circuit tries to "retune". This type of RC circuit is a very simple high pass filter that really works quite well in many areas. However, it also suffers in really bad ground, but is an improvement over nothing at all.
Reg
 
Reg, thanx for that. Now I think I'm begining to understand. The second sample is subtracted from the first, all integrated; hopefully with noise and ground cancelling.All this, and as long as the time constant of the target isn't included in the second sample window.TRICKY.
We've learnt that rings are pretty short TC'c , what about the TC's of great lumps of gold, or even just little nuggets.
regards,Allan.
 
Hi Allan,
Complete subtraction occurs when the amplitude of the two signals is equalised by the ground balance control. Signal time constants that are shorter than the decay time of the ground gets through OK, but so also do time constants that are longer, and do get sampled by the second window. The signal drops out, therefore, just for the ground signal and a bit either side. It's a form of notch filter.Howver, without doing anything else the signal from the subtraction circuit will go positive for small objects, and negative for larger, or more conductive ones. This could then be amplified further and used to drive a VFO audio circuit so that you get a frequency rise for small targets and a frequency drop for larger ones. Alternatively, as the Goldscan did, you could use a full wave rectifier arrangement to invert the negative signals so that everything comes out positive.
Eric.
 
Hi Allan,
The time constants of nuggets are all over the spectrum. Small nuggets 2 or maybe 3 grams or less should display little effect of a ground balance (GB). Much above that and it depends upon the ground balance setting and the nugget itself.
Very solid gold nuggets will be the first to show the effects of the subtract process. Coarse or rough nuggets will have a tendency to be less effected to a point.
However, most large nuggets, maybe over 1/2 oz or so will most likely display the characteristics Eric explained.
The key to the nugget rejection is just how close the ground balance is set for full balance. The closer it is, the more likely the signals from nuggets will be reduced.
I have found that if just some ground balance signal is used, the ground response can be reduced considerably and not have a serious effect on the gold signals. This is how I chose to operate my PI when using a mono coil.
Different coils such as the DD really help. The ground response has been significantly reduced by the use of the DD coil in the areas where I have hunted.
Larger DD coils seem to be better than small coils in this regard also. However, the results I have experienced might also be the result of how the DD coil was built also. It can be real tough to get a DD coil balanced and keep it that way, especially if trying to be able to use it with a 10 uesec delay.
As for noise, I have experienced a greater noise when using the GB. The reason I do is because of the technique I use. I try maintain the same sensitivity or very close with or without the GB, so this requires I amplify the second sample considerably to obtain the results. This extra amplification not only amplifies the ground signal but the noise as well. So, it is sort of like cranking up the sensitivty considerably above the norm.
I hope this helps.
Reg
 
Hi HH,
My statement that gold time constants are all over the spectrum probably didn't explain what I mean, so I will try again. First of all, the pulse decay curve is just that, an exponentional type curve. Any object such as a piece of gold will just alter the decay curve a little by changing the slope slightly. An object will not produce a hump at a particular delay time. Sampling is normally done when the slope is very nearly decayed to 0 volts so slight variations in the slope can be detected.
You might want to visit the Geotechnology website and read some of the information written for the projects listed if you are unfamiliar with the prinicples involved. A graphical display of a simple decay curve and how it is altered by a target is shown on a couple of the projects.
A a very small nugget will alter the decay curve just slightly and for a very short usable time. By usable, I mean the decay curve change is large enough that the change can be distinguished from the noise. Now the decay curve change generated by a very small nugget is slight and quickly "disappears" or decays into the noise base. At some point in time it cannot be distinguished from the normal noise. A larger nugget will produce a larger decay curve change that takes longer to "disappear" and a very large nugget produces a greater decay curve change yet that again takes longer to "disappear".
Given the three examples above, taking a sample lets say at 10 usec, it is possible all three nuggets may generate a usable change. If the sample delay time is moved to 20 usec, then it is very possible the curve change caused by the small nugget is so slight, it cannot be separated from the noise, but the other two still can. Extend the delay out farther and the slope change caused by the second nugget may be too weak to be useful, etc, etc.
Your question or statement about taking multiple samples and "adding them" so the signal rises up out of the noise is usually done but is done by analog means in the amplifier stage that amplifies the sampled signal. By using an integrator type amplifier, the subsequent samples are "added" to produce a larger combined signal. Could this be done with a microprocessor, the answer is yes.
However, the noise generated by the microprocessor and associated circuitry now becomes part of the problem. Also, because the signal changes are so slight to begin with, the A/D would have to be very precise. A simple 8 bit or 10 bit resolution most likely would be insufficent to produce a very sensitive detector. Next comes the processing program which would be quite complex requiring the processor to be extremely fast. And finally, the information accrued would be tremendous, so a large amount of memory would be required if extensive analysis were to be done.
So, such a project would take a long time and a whole lot of work. About the time one would complete the software, a new and better micro would be introduced and the process would start all over.
The reality is, most people, or companies for that matter, do not have the time or resources to dedicate to such a project for the "fun of it". The market at this point in time is insufficient to justify it be done as a business venture.
One last point, nothing is constant so developing a "history" would be very difficult. The ground signals are constantly changing the curve due to coil height as well as because of the soil composition. Nugget signals change from nugget to nugget due to size, shape, orientation and actual composition.
The techniques you mentioned work much better on VLF type coin detectors where each denomination of coin is quite consistent and the ground signals can be minimized. However, even then, orientation of the coin or the possibility of another nearby object "contaminating" the sample can alter a received signal, thus the final results.
Reg
 
Hi Reg:
Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response. I have a much better picture of the complexity of identifying targets with Pulse Induction. As I said at the beginning of my post, "fascinating stuff".
fod:)
 
Hi again Reg:
I thought I recognized your writing style.
For those of you that have been following this thread, and are interested in learning more, I highly recommend that you head over to the NuggetShooter web page and check out Reg's excellant tutorial "Understanding the PI Detector".
Thanks again for your help.
fod:)
 
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