I've been reading some of your testing results and you keep mentioning some of your areas that have pretty bad mineralization. Have you done any testing using iron mask off in these areas? Even my good ground is worse than most of the bad ground in other parts of the country. Charles Garrett once wrote when he was testing his new VLF discriminating detector in my area that he thought my ground might be the worst on the planet. I'm not sure about that but I do know it's pretty tough in some areas. The reason I mainly used Whites detectors through the years for my bad ground is because they gave me the option of using discrimination to handle the mineralization. On the XLT it was the +95, on the 5900/6000 it was the hotrock accept/reject and the Quantum/QXT it was zone 8 the ground zone. There is a reason Minelab gave people this option on the first Sovereign that came out. Actually this option was named normal mode/iron mask mode.and Minelab recommended using the normal mode in bad ground and when beach hunting. On later models I think they reduced the sensitivity somewhat of the iron mask when they hard wired them as the original Sovereign and Gt seem much hotter in iron mask than those models. I've found the iron mask on/off switch on the original Sovereiegn and now on the GT to be very similar in performance to those options on the Whites detectors. Turning iron mask off reduces the GT's sensitivity to mineralization, hotrocks and iron and might be an option to try for those that have bad ground. I do try to hunt in iron mask most of the time but there are areas that turning it off works better.
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Hey Critter? Have you tried this?
- Thread starter crazyman
- Start date
Critterhunter
New member
Most of my sites even with higher minerals aren't so bad that the machine is falsing or anything. Sure, I've got a few like that that are even a problem for the GT (but they were much more a problem for my Explorers and of course other machines). At those severe sites falsing and things like false coin hits usually can be compensated for with a lower sensitivity. I've only found one or two that are giving the GT things like false coin hits but nothing I can't put up with in terms of deciding which is which. I have thought about your running Iron Mask OFF in one such location I had hit a few weeks back. This spot seems to give false coin hits on any machine. I thought it might be due to a buried pipe or something but it's obvious to me now that it's just mineral/hot rock content in that area. Next time I'm there I plan to flip over to Iron Mask OFF and see if it makes the hunt more enjoyable there.
For me any smoother running machine is a trade I'm not willing to make if it means costing me unmasking ability. I'm used to hunting with nothing discriminated out at all on my QXT Pro including the Ground signal (zone) or the small/large iron zones. I like to hear all that chatter as I listen for any high tones mixed within them. The GT in discriminate mode at first was something very hard for me to get used to in not being able to hear the iron. I've since learned to "hear" the iron by the way the machine nulls, and also some iron will still sound off and false (more so with Iron Mask On than Off). To me that "noise" is music to my ears. At first I was tempted to scout in All Metal so I could hear the iron on the GT. I've since learned to here it by the nulling or whatever sounds off and breaks through. That tips me off to areas of activity when in the woods, so I no longer feel the need to scout via All Metal with it.
Long way to a point- If Iron Mask OFF will give me more depth for some odd reason or perhaps better ability to discern the good from the bad in terms of false coin hits/spikes then I'll give it a go. Are you saying that- That Iron Mask Off seems to get you deeper by way of a higher sensitivity setting or something? I'm open to trying new things. I'm just saying that if it's only advantage is to quiet the machine down then it isn't something I'd want. I don't find this machine to be any more noisy than any other machine I've owned. Smoother than most, in fact, and even smoother in any kind of minerals or iron. Most of my sites aren't really causing the machine to run rough or false, despite what I think may be happening to the depth of larger coils in this high of minerals. Maybe it's just the "perfect mix" in that although the minerals are high in my area (so I'm told by a friend who has owned machines that will report mineral levels on screen) most of the time that don't bump the machine around. The Explorer got bumped around more for me. I just think that the mineral content is just right maybe in that although things seem smooth it *is* costing me depth if I try to go to something as large as the 15x12.
What I can't understand is that over in Europe the 15x12 was put through it's paces against the 12x10. I would figure they have some pretty rough ground over there as well in terms of mineral content. Why would that coil prove to be deeper on most coins than the 12x10 if that was the case? Maybe it's the volume thing. Maybe I just haven't swept this coil over a deeper coin yet than I have with the 10". Maybe my sensitivity calibration method isn't really giving me best depth. I'm open to any and all suggestions at this point.
For me any smoother running machine is a trade I'm not willing to make if it means costing me unmasking ability. I'm used to hunting with nothing discriminated out at all on my QXT Pro including the Ground signal (zone) or the small/large iron zones. I like to hear all that chatter as I listen for any high tones mixed within them. The GT in discriminate mode at first was something very hard for me to get used to in not being able to hear the iron. I've since learned to "hear" the iron by the way the machine nulls, and also some iron will still sound off and false (more so with Iron Mask On than Off). To me that "noise" is music to my ears. At first I was tempted to scout in All Metal so I could hear the iron on the GT. I've since learned to here it by the nulling or whatever sounds off and breaks through. That tips me off to areas of activity when in the woods, so I no longer feel the need to scout via All Metal with it.
Long way to a point- If Iron Mask OFF will give me more depth for some odd reason or perhaps better ability to discern the good from the bad in terms of false coin hits/spikes then I'll give it a go. Are you saying that- That Iron Mask Off seems to get you deeper by way of a higher sensitivity setting or something? I'm open to trying new things. I'm just saying that if it's only advantage is to quiet the machine down then it isn't something I'd want. I don't find this machine to be any more noisy than any other machine I've owned. Smoother than most, in fact, and even smoother in any kind of minerals or iron. Most of my sites aren't really causing the machine to run rough or false, despite what I think may be happening to the depth of larger coils in this high of minerals. Maybe it's just the "perfect mix" in that although the minerals are high in my area (so I'm told by a friend who has owned machines that will report mineral levels on screen) most of the time that don't bump the machine around. The Explorer got bumped around more for me. I just think that the mineral content is just right maybe in that although things seem smooth it *is* costing me depth if I try to go to something as large as the 15x12.
What I can't understand is that over in Europe the 15x12 was put through it's paces against the 12x10. I would figure they have some pretty rough ground over there as well in terms of mineral content. Why would that coil prove to be deeper on most coins than the 12x10 if that was the case? Maybe it's the volume thing. Maybe I just haven't swept this coil over a deeper coin yet than I have with the 10". Maybe my sensitivity calibration method isn't really giving me best depth. I'm open to any and all suggestions at this point.
Critter, if the mineralization is bad enough especially using a larger coil then yes iron mask off can give you better depth. Using discrimination to deal with the mineralization is not actually the same as just turning down the sensitivity. You can loose some depth on some detectors that have this expanded discrimination range when cancelling the ground but the BBS technology is a bit different on how it discriminates and from what I've seen so far when turning iron mask off is that I can actually run sensitivity a bit higher if I want while still getting about the same depth as when using iron mask on with lower sensitivity while still getting the benefits of smoother operation and less falsing. Outside of just the iron rejection using it off or on I don't think the other benefits of turning it off would be noticeable in low to moderate mineralization.
Critterhunter
New member
Thanks for the input. I'll be playing with Iron Mask On/Off more at a few of my rougher sites to see what gives. Also might try it on the beach here and there on deep/fringe stuff and see if anything changes.
Good stuff crazyman i like it, The iron mask off seems to me to cut out a lot if not all the false as you come off deep iron that you tend to get with it on if your moving slightly too fast, this makes for faster coverage of the beach too as your not constantly rechecking targets that null and chirp, if it does spike a sound i have found it to be a good target on most occasions on the fringe and can be wiggled up from the null(if that makes sense)
Critter ,
You have been concerned with the size of the coil area on larger coils being a detriment to depth as there is too much area to feedback when in highly mineralized area's ......What about going in the opposite direction and trying out something like a Sunray S-8 ? ....You would have less area that would be feeding back on the coil, AND you can surely run your sensitivity higher ..... Turn Iron Mask OFF , and give it a shot .....It might just be that equation that you're looking for .... Iron Mask OFF is a GREAT idea !!.....That worked very well for me as far as seperating targets next to iron went .... The smaller coil might help even more .....?????......Jim
You have been concerned with the size of the coil area on larger coils being a detriment to depth as there is too much area to feedback when in highly mineralized area's ......What about going in the opposite direction and trying out something like a Sunray S-8 ? ....You would have less area that would be feeding back on the coil, AND you can surely run your sensitivity higher ..... Turn Iron Mask OFF , and give it a shot .....It might just be that equation that you're looking for .... Iron Mask OFF is a GREAT idea !!.....That worked very well for me as far as seperating targets next to iron went .... The smaller coil might help even more .....?????......Jim
Critterhunter
New member
I would figure that might be one of the most useful traits of turning Iron Mask Off- That at least at some sites you won't be fooled as much or waste time checking out iron falses. In that case then anything that might be real you might be more prone to investigate and not just ignore as a false hit off iron or hot rocks or something. Primarily I prefer Iron Mask On only because I've been told that it optimizes the machine's ability to sound off to good targets mixed in things like iron. Most of the time it's more noisy response than turning it OFF is never an issue for me. I find this machine very quiet and smooth as butter at 99% of my sites, but that might be due to me being used to allowing even iron to sound off on my other machines to maximize target unmasking potential. I'm used to hearing it all and training my ears to listen for the high tones in heavy trash. I almost never look at the meter until a target's audio response has caught my attention. But, perhaps Iron Mask Off would allow higher sensitivity settings for some people while not making the machine as fussy, thus allowing greater depths even if unmasking ability isn't as good.
By the way, concerning using my ears and only looking at the meter when I want to check a target out- That's one of the big problems I had with the 6000 Pro XL. What a great machine and it's ground tracking (those rare times I trusted tracking) was the best I've ever used. I could not stand the lack of multitones and as a result found myself having to keep my face glued to the meter on that machine when working through trash. The meter was the only way to tell most targets apart. As good as it's meter is (better than my Explorers even at telling silver from clads), I did not enjoy having to watch it constantly. If that machine had a larger coil for it (Hot Shot stinks from what I hear) to get another 2" deeper or so on coins and also had tones (I know there is a mod for that) then it might prove to be something I would want to own again in my line up.
Then again, if a larger coil existed for those low frequency Whites units I'd probably rather have another QXT Pro to and use that with the extra 2 or 3" deeper a bigger coil might provide...as it's VDI is much faster than the 6000 and it already has assignable tone alerts. I loved that machine for the trash when searching out high tones. Strap that smallest (smaller than the 5.3") Whites sniper coil on that puppy and you'd have one of the best trash machines on the market ever made. Even using the 9.5" coil it had much faster/better separation than other machines using a 5.3" coil due to it's quick high tone alerts which could separate targets regardless of how fast you were swinging the coil to quickly move through it. I always thought that would be maybe the best machine on the market at finding shallow coins in trash if you used that little Whites sniper coil on it. I didn't find the 5.3" to offer much better separation as it was already awesome using the stock 9.5". The 5.3 did, however, allow me to hear smaller targets in more finer detail. I could some times hear the double chirp of the two holes in a square tab with that coil on it. First and only time I was ever able to hear that much detail on any detector.
I've said it a billion times but the market for a larger coil on all those low frequency Whites units (XLT, QXT, 6000, etc) is ripe for somebody to make a larger aftermarket coil for them other than the lowly Hot Shot. Could you imagine a 12x10 or something slightly larger to max out the depth on coin sized targets with those machines? Most of them would max out in depth on a silver dime at about 7 to 8.5" deep. If a larger coil could give them another 2 or 3" of depth they'd be able to keep up with the Minelabs at least in some soils. Nothing I've ever owned ran as smooth as a Whites, and there was just something about the audio and VDI on them as well that made them very comfortable and like an old friend to use. The Sovereign is the first non-Whites I've owned that seems to have as smooth of a VDI & as telling/warm audio as they did. Of course with the GT's more numerous multitones, it's improved VDI resolution, and it's awesome depth it has it's own advantages over "the good old days". Smooth audio/VDI of some Whites with the depth of a Minelab. I'm home...
By the way, concerning using my ears and only looking at the meter when I want to check a target out- That's one of the big problems I had with the 6000 Pro XL. What a great machine and it's ground tracking (those rare times I trusted tracking) was the best I've ever used. I could not stand the lack of multitones and as a result found myself having to keep my face glued to the meter on that machine when working through trash. The meter was the only way to tell most targets apart. As good as it's meter is (better than my Explorers even at telling silver from clads), I did not enjoy having to watch it constantly. If that machine had a larger coil for it (Hot Shot stinks from what I hear) to get another 2" deeper or so on coins and also had tones (I know there is a mod for that) then it might prove to be something I would want to own again in my line up.
Then again, if a larger coil existed for those low frequency Whites units I'd probably rather have another QXT Pro to and use that with the extra 2 or 3" deeper a bigger coil might provide...as it's VDI is much faster than the 6000 and it already has assignable tone alerts. I loved that machine for the trash when searching out high tones. Strap that smallest (smaller than the 5.3") Whites sniper coil on that puppy and you'd have one of the best trash machines on the market ever made. Even using the 9.5" coil it had much faster/better separation than other machines using a 5.3" coil due to it's quick high tone alerts which could separate targets regardless of how fast you were swinging the coil to quickly move through it. I always thought that would be maybe the best machine on the market at finding shallow coins in trash if you used that little Whites sniper coil on it. I didn't find the 5.3" to offer much better separation as it was already awesome using the stock 9.5". The 5.3 did, however, allow me to hear smaller targets in more finer detail. I could some times hear the double chirp of the two holes in a square tab with that coil on it. First and only time I was ever able to hear that much detail on any detector.
I've said it a billion times but the market for a larger coil on all those low frequency Whites units (XLT, QXT, 6000, etc) is ripe for somebody to make a larger aftermarket coil for them other than the lowly Hot Shot. Could you imagine a 12x10 or something slightly larger to max out the depth on coin sized targets with those machines? Most of them would max out in depth on a silver dime at about 7 to 8.5" deep. If a larger coil could give them another 2 or 3" of depth they'd be able to keep up with the Minelabs at least in some soils. Nothing I've ever owned ran as smooth as a Whites, and there was just something about the audio and VDI on them as well that made them very comfortable and like an old friend to use. The Sovereign is the first non-Whites I've owned that seems to have as smooth of a VDI & as telling/warm audio as they did. Of course with the GT's more numerous multitones, it's improved VDI resolution, and it's awesome depth it has it's own advantages over "the good old days". Smooth audio/VDI of some Whites with the depth of a Minelab. I'm home...
Critterhunter
New member
With the 10" coil provided me more depth than any machine I've ever owned (including my Explorers) I wouldn't figure an 8" coil to give me more depth. I'm just concerned where that line in the sand is in terms of the size of the coil being too big to no longer offer more depth on targets. I'm note sure yet if the 15x12 has gone over that line. Still need more field use with it. But I would figure that perhaps the 12x10, Excelerator 12.5", or S-12 might be my max size for my soil if it turns out the 15x12 is past that point of return. I really don't like talking about this coil that way. It's a 9 on a scale of 10 and even in Auto gets me deeper than all my other machines I've owned for the most part. Just trying to figure off it it's as deep or deeper than the 10" Tornado.
By the way, when I equate coin depths remember that I'm talking on land. Roughly 8 or 9" deep is the deepest I've dug them with the 15x12 so far. About 11" with the 10" Tornado. In the sand I've got coins about a foot deep with either coil and maybe a bit deeper so far that still rang out loud and clear with perfect ID. As I said before, this is the first machine I've owned that got more depth in my sand than it did on land. Usually my prior detectors got a good 2 or 3" less depth in the dry sand on the great lake beaches I hunt. I'm shocked the GT doesn't seem to suffer this fate and even seems to get more depth in wet or dry sand. I've even passed up a few real deep soft coin signals on the beach with it because I knew by how deep they sounded that they might very well be about 15 or 16" deep. That's based on how loud and clear with good ID coins at around 12" deep have sounded on the beach for me with either coil.
That's what I can't figure out about the volume debate perhaps causing me to miss deep coins on land. If that was the case I would figure I wouldn't be hearing those coins over a foot deep in the sand. Still sorting that thing out as well. Maybe volume is an issue in depth and I haven't noticed that yet. I've got to do some more full volume hunts and compare the deep/fringe target I hit with that to what happens when I crank the volume all the way down like I usually hunt.
By the way, when I equate coin depths remember that I'm talking on land. Roughly 8 or 9" deep is the deepest I've dug them with the 15x12 so far. About 11" with the 10" Tornado. In the sand I've got coins about a foot deep with either coil and maybe a bit deeper so far that still rang out loud and clear with perfect ID. As I said before, this is the first machine I've owned that got more depth in my sand than it did on land. Usually my prior detectors got a good 2 or 3" less depth in the dry sand on the great lake beaches I hunt. I'm shocked the GT doesn't seem to suffer this fate and even seems to get more depth in wet or dry sand. I've even passed up a few real deep soft coin signals on the beach with it because I knew by how deep they sounded that they might very well be about 15 or 16" deep. That's based on how loud and clear with good ID coins at around 12" deep have sounded on the beach for me with either coil.
That's what I can't figure out about the volume debate perhaps causing me to miss deep coins on land. If that was the case I would figure I wouldn't be hearing those coins over a foot deep in the sand. Still sorting that thing out as well. Maybe volume is an issue in depth and I haven't noticed that yet. I've got to do some more full volume hunts and compare the deep/fringe target I hit with that to what happens when I crank the volume all the way down like I usually hunt.
With the depths that you're talking about here , I surely wouldn't complain !!.....11" in the dirt with the 10 inch Tornado with a good solid tone is no small feat !!....... That's DEEEEEEEP for ANY detector .... 11 inches on land would equate to about 13 - 14 " in sand by me ...... I know for SURE that I can go that deep with my E Trac , but haven 't tried out the Sovereign yet .....Too many things to do around my house .... I'm sure that I could probably hear a nickel loud and clear at 14 - 15 inches or so in the sand with the 10" Tornado coil ......I've already tested it on Gold, and the Sovereign has REALLY swett tone on Gold !!.... Almost as nice as the E Trac .....Jim