How much difference do headphones make? (180 readings)

[BlackX]

In my just previous post about a 2nd detector, I briefly brought up my frustration with the lack of information from the Sov between cents, dimes, & quarters. I've been using the Sov for a year and I can, at times, guess as to what's what before digging by the sound but not by the meter, which is pegged at 180. (I really wish Minelab didn't cut that off there. (With my previous detector, a Tesoro sidewinder uMax, adjusting the discrimination from cents and above could often give me a lot of information.) Folks talk about being able to hear the difference and I'm wondering how much effect the headphones have in ability to hear the difference between 180-reading cents, dimes, quarters, and other objects that read 180.

_Rich_

 

[brobox]

Although I have only had my GT for a couple of weeks, I am REALLY impressed with the tone separation on targets, even those of coins and their sizes I am a firm believer in a GOOD set of headphones, I personally prefer the Timber Wolfs for the ability for me to be able to hear the size of targets. So far I have not had any trouble being able to tell the difference of the size of a dime versus a quarter, and most times I have been able to tell a penny, unless it is a surface coin, then I am still fooled. A corroded zinc penny will have a scratchy sound compared to a dime or a quarter. Here in Florida with our salty soil, zinc pennies corrode very quickly.

I am a firm believer that if you spend (X) hundreds of dollars for a top of the line detector, the headphones are not the place to cut corners. Being hear impaired, I have to have a set of headphones that I can hear with.

Chuck in Cape Coral

 

[Mike (Virginia Beach)]

What do you mean by "pegged at 180"? That doesn't make any sense at all. When I get a dime or quarter, it's 180. A penny is like 176. A nickel is about 145-ish. A Civial War minnieball is a 174 and a musketball is 172. Gold rings can be in the range of a nickel or maybe much lower, depending on how fine the ring is. So your assertion that your meter is "locked on 180" is absurd. Unless you have your machine set to All Metal maybe. Or your meter is screwed up. Or you are hunting at a site full of crushed up pop cans.

The Sovereign GT is a great detector. The WIDE variance of tones, combined with the added information of the digital meter set to the 180 scale, gives a tremendous advantage to the detectorist as to knowing what they are digging. If you've been using it for a year and are still confused, maybe it's time to go back to the Tesoro. I've used a lot of other machines and I can only think of ONE that will give you more in the way of info as to what you are digging and that's the Explorer SE. I sold mine (after mastering it and doing quite well with it) and bought a Sovereign GT package, simply because I wanted a little LESS information and the simplicitiy of a basic tone/numeric ID system without all the added bells and whistles of the Explorer SE. But I can tell you this: The Explorer SE will read 00-29 on a silver quarter...00 being the "ferrous" reading and the 29 being the non-ferrous and it will read something like 03-29 on a clad quarter. Likewise, it will read like 31-00 on a rusty nail where many other machines will read "Coin" or "quarter". So if the GT isn't enough for you, try an SE. Or go back to the Tesoro.

 

[BlackX]

[quote Mike (Virginia Beach)]What do you mean by "pegged at 180"? That doesn't make any sense at all. When I get a dime or quarter, it's 180. A penny is like 176.[/quote]

Only zinc is 175-176 (or below if eroded) for me. A full copper penny is 180 (maybe--rarely--at 179). And dimes, quarters, half-dollars, and dollars should not get the same reading. While the metalurgical content may be the same, the mass is significantly different. Information loss is information loss. (And there's NO need for it. (If I wanted simple--idiot--readings, I wouldn't have bought a Sov in the first place.)) Do you get different readings on pre-'82 cents?

A nickel is about 145-ish. A Civial War minnieball is a 174 and a musketball is 172. Gold rings can be in the range of a nickel or maybe much lower, depending on how fine the ring is.

I may not have been as clear as I could have been but I didn't assert otherwise.

So your assertion that your meter is "locked on 180" is absurd.

Absurd? It is for quarters, dimes, and copper pennies. Isn't yours?

Unless you have your machine set to All Metal maybe. Or your meter is screwed up.

Not set at All Metal. Don't think my meter is screwed up. Have wondered if it needs a tune-up of some sort but, since I haven't used any other Sovs other than my own, I can't compare.

Or you are hunting at a site full of crushed up pop cans.

That's been known to happen. But at 176. (See post a few weeks ago about party sites.]

The Sovereign GT is a great detector. The WIDE variance of tones,

I won't argue that. UP UNTIL it flattens every signal to 180. (This is a serious flaw in the Sov that needs correction IMO. Most responses I've seen to this have been in the "it's always been that way" direction. There's a lot of information being cut off at that point and there's NO need for it. Sov users aren't idiots. Would you want it to flatten out at 175-176 where intact zincs start? In the lower-to mid-140s where nickels start? IMO, it's pretty damn short-sighted to limit us between the conductivity of copper and silver. (And Minelab doesn't do it below that point.) It's pretty clearly, at least to me, a "it's always been that way" factor for Minelab that they don't change. Can you name--and I'm ignorant of any other companies that do it--ONE other company that manufactures a metal detector that scrunches copper pennies, dimes, and quarters (let alone ***ing half dollars or dollars) into ONE data point? The ONLY reason I can think of for Minelab not fixing that--since they've been making other improvements--is that it would likely change number readings that folks have become used to. (But users adjusted to the the 550 -> 180 differential.)

...and I can only think of ONE that will give you more in the way of info as to what you are digging and that's the Explorer SE. I sold mine (after mastering it and doing quite well with it) and bought a Sovereign GT package, simply because I wanted a little LESS information and the simplicitiy of a basic tone/numeric ID system without all the added bells and whistles of the Explorer SE. But I can tell you this: The Explorer SE will read 00-29 on a silver quarter...00 being the "ferrous" reading and the 29 being the non-ferrous and it will read something like 03-29 on a clad quarter. Likewise, it will read like 31-00 on a rusty nail where many other machines will read "Coin" or "quarter". So if the GT isn't enough for you, try an SE.

Perhaps I will. From what I've read, the Explorer (don't know if SE-specific as you seem to imply) wlll give the same continuous audio tone info (if different pitch) as a Sov except without imposing a hardwired cutoff at copper and above. As well as adding the 2-way graphic info of conductive and ferrous content. Am I missing something?

Or go back to the Tesoro.

Sure not going back to simply the Sidewinder, that's for damn sure. There's no question the Sov was multiple steps above that.

Cheers,
_Rich_

 

[sandman256]

BlackX, you asked for help and one of the guys that has the knowledge to help, tries to help and you refute almost everything Mike says. He wasn't attacking you, just offering possible solutions and questions as to what mode, etc you used.

 

[Rick(ND)]

The Sovereign with the tones and meter reading will read the copper penny, the clad and silver all at 179-180 if it is not over 8 inches in my soil. Now the zinc pennies made after 1982 plus some of the very old Wheaties and the later year IH will read 176-177 on a property calibrated 180 meter for most. Now we have seen with some experience with the Sovereign with the tones and meter reading you may be able to tell the difference in the silver coins at maybe 50-60% of the time. This is not the best odds so we find that digging all the 179-180 numbers is recommended that are coin size targets. I will also dig the 176-177 while those that are 177-178 been mostly screw caps, but those too we find we dig many of them just in case. The nickles seem to be mostly a tone to itself and a meter reading of 143-145 but some of the war nickles still have the round nickle tone to them and read as high as 151 on the meter. Some older ones will read a bit lower if deep which in our case we like to dig all the weak positive signals anyway that are repeatable and may not be able to reach the correct tones or meter reading, but sure are trying as most of the time it is not trash. For us that are serious with the Sovereign we will dig any of the 179-180 even if it is new coins, but if you are just going to detect newer area than a detector like the X-Terra or one of the others that will tell you the difference between a penny and quarter would be the one to use. The Sovereign is made more for those that do want to get the old and deeper coins and may have to dig some of the newer coins to get them. I find I like to use my Sovereigns in those old area that are well worked so I don't have to listen to all the new loud signals.
Now headphone seem to make a difference for some of us and like Chuck I need the volume of a good set of headphones that will block out lot of the outside noise as i am very hard of hearing so I have the Timberwolfs which are the loudest on the Sovereigns and I can hear those deep signals of good targets, so I would say in my case a good set of headphones makes a big difference in me finding the deeper coins. Now if you think that a good set of headphones can tell the difference in a penny verses a quarter I don't think you will see a difference at all in the tones. Once you have used it enough you may see a clad coin and copper penny will hit 179-180 while silver dimes and quarters seem to lock in better at 180 while a silver quarter and half will go to 180 and may even see 181, but this many don't see unless you know your Sovereign well and how to wiggle it just right over only just the signal.

If I want the deep coins I have to run manual sensitivity as high as I can and have a stable detector with a slight threshold so I can hear the slight tone changes and the null of iron. The GT is a bit more sensitive as those that are experienced with the Sovereign will probably tell you, I find this very true as you will get some iron falses more, but by checking at a different angle you will see they don't repeat in the same area.

Good luck
Rick

 

[Mike (Virginia Beach)]

Well, he DOES make a few valid points though. And the GT and it's way of hunting isn't for everybody. There ARE other machines that lump the hi-coin signals together and there are others that give a little more separation.

I have to head to work now and don't have time to answer his post but I will do so a little later when I can fully reply to it.

 

[james1969]

Mike can you give your thoughts on the GT compared to the Explorer,I can run my GT with sensitivity maxed out on my best site,I've been working this site for 3 years and any finds left are very deep,now let's say I had an Explorer and ran it in all metal with sensitivity at 32(or very close),do you think it would go deeper than a maxed out GT?. I really like my GT and after running a Quattro for 2 years I can say I far prefer the GT,however it has a few faults for me,first I'd like the disc mode to go all the way down to zero discrimination,in other words no iron discriminated out and a very low tone for iron replacing a null,this would I believe add an inch or 2 to the depth and improve it's performance in Iron(if you can stand the ear bashing).Secondly the audio volume in all metal fixed and track is to low,it needs to be as loud as the pinpoint audio,for me hunting in all metal gets me no more depth and is far slower than in disc,that wavering threshold sure does not help in spotting the real faint signals!,then again maybe my hearing is not 100%.
Anyway I guess my question is whether a maxed out Explorer in all metal will go deeper than a maxed out GT in disc.

 

[Mike (Virginia Beach)]

I think the answer is yes, it will go a little deeper. But not necessarily "maxed out" at 32. If you're in an exceptionally clean area, like you appear to be if you can run the GT maxed out, then MAYBE. But I found that running the Explorer much lower often got the better depth. Because when you run it higher it makes it more sensitive to EVERYTHING, not just deep "good" targets, but iron, mineralization, and interference as well. I often got better depth at 20 than 28 and even worse at 30+. On the other hand, with the little 4.5 x 7" coil, I was often able to run 32 and get GREAT depth with it and great separation as well. Coil size dictates quite a bit as to how hot you can go. But the Explorer does have more in the way of the features you want and I would bet that you will make more good finds at your spot if you hit it with one, preferrably with a 12.5" coil if it's that clean.

 

[Mike (Virginia Beach)]

OK, well when you said "Pegged at 180", I took that to mean on EVERYTHING. Or at least MOST things. Now I see you meant COINS.

I can name a few machines that do that. One would be my Fisher CZ-70. Dimes, quarters, halfs, and above...all come in as "Hi-coin"...simple LED segment...no way to tell them apart, audio-wise either...same tone. Now they DO separate out "Zinc Penny" and give it it's own segment. And in there is where your '83 and later pennies come in at. And Civil War minnieballs and a lot of buttons too. But '82 and earlier pennies, wheaties, many Indians...they hit on Hi-coin most of the time. And the CZ-70 is one of the best, easiest, and deepest machines ever made.

The GT has some distinct tonal differences on deeper silver coins than on shallower clad coins. Myself and many others can tell when they have a silver coin. I personally hate digging clad coins when I'm land hunting. I don't hunt schoolyards unless they are old and I will often pass up what I know to be shallow clad coins. So for me, the GT is a better choice than say an Explorer SE. Because I actually want a little LESS information. But for you, I think exactly the opposite is true. It will give you waht you seek. The Dual-digital mode with both ferrous and non-ferrous ID numbers will let you know with great certainty the difference between a penny, dime, quarter, etc. And there are the tones and the Smartfind screen as well, so LOTS of info.

As for the GT users "adjusting" to the 550 meter, that's not so. Most users of previous models did not like the Minelab meters...like the 550-scale meter that came with my Sovereign Elite a few years back. Sunray may the VERY popular DTI series meters that used the 180 scale and a lot of us Sovereign users modified our meters with internal resistor changes to read the 180 scale. I did mine and two of my friends meters for them and many folks paid to have it done. Minelab finally rescaled theirs in response to user desires...something that still puzzles a lot of us, because that's not something they usually seem to care much about.

I recoomend that you try and Explorer II or SE and see what you think. I believe you will like it.

 

[james1969]

Thanks Mike,yes I detect in a remote area and I'm lucky to have such a non mineralized site,as you might guess this is where I've pulled up 12+ inch coins and relics in the past and hopefully in the future,I'm actually using a Joey coil at the moment and only 2 days ago I pulled up a small piece of copper scrap at 11 inches,great coil the Joey.I must get that 16.5 inch detech coil and give it a go,probably cheaper than buying a new Explorer! lol

 

[ejudasf]

I agree with Rick about still being able to tell a false iron signal. A good, deep signal will still be detected from all directions.

There are also lots of different coil sizes, so some of the bigger coils may not be too effective in trashy areas, DEPENDING on the user.

I have also experienced that the speed of your swing may also dictate if you find a deep target, but I am going into another topic. sorry.

Headphones. Some work better for others. I can only say that sometimes the tone comes in very loud and clear. You look at the meter and it says 180. What is it?

Remember LOUD and CLEAR. Could be Walking Liberty Half. How about a pretty BIG silver RING.

NOT A CAN. IT wasn't that loud. Anyway, I was really trying point out the 'Clarity' of the signal. I don't remember that clarity all the time, but sometimes I hear it. There really is too many variables to contend with, so keep using the machine, dig all signals, or learn what trash sounds like and don't dig those, but you never know what you are passing up unless you check with your eyes.

laterz

ed

 

[Mike (Virginia Beach)]

Sounds like a site I'd like to hunt. Good luck!

 

[BlackX]

Thanks for the comments Mike, Rick, etc.! I appreciate it.

I probably will try an Explorer to see how it works for me. Trying to find one will be interesting--used ones seem to be a bit limited on eBay at the moment, particularly SEs, but, coming from the Sov, the new Pitch Hold tone on the SE sure would be nice. (Been reading through the manuals for the II and SE.)

Thanks again,
_Rich_

 

[brobox]

It is a TONE machine(17 of them) and the meter is an after market add-on. I hunt with the GT for a tone machine, adding the meter just to help me learn the tones faster. With Mikes' numbers chart he posted a few weeks back has been a BIG help shortening that learning curve. The meter will not give you the separation on dimes and quarters like you want, they are going to read 180 and it is up to you to tell if it is a small round sound (dime) or large round sound (quarter). I bought my GT one hour old from a DFX user that was not going to take the time to learn the tones, he was still looking for VDI numbers like that of his DFX. I got a GREAT deal and he is still hunting with a single frequency machine that gives him lots of numbers that he wanted. In my opinion and why I bought the GT, it is one heck of a deep tone machine. The meter only puts the tones in a category and it is up to me to listen to what the tones are and for that I need top of the line headphones.

Chuck in Cape Coral

 

[Neil]

Im pretty sure those have several freqs and also can be set up to have different tones for different objects..
maybe it was two freq like the CZs, I forget. A friend of mine had one but it was awhile back.

Its great to learn the tones of the Sov but the meter makes a heck of a difference when hunting, I rate that the number one accessory to
get for the Sov.

HH
Neil

 

[Rick(ND)]

The Sovereign tones are great and never could believe Minelab put a single tone switch on the XS2a as the tones ID was what made the Sovereign so great in my opinion. Now adding the meter too what helped so many learn this detector plus I find it too a very important tool in getting some of the deeper good targets we are finding. The reason is sometimes on the deep ones I find the tones you can hear climbing, but never enough to get a good ID. Now with the meter of Sun Rays or Minelab digital 180 meter I can see by the digital numbers what is happening and try to get the highest reading I can. Without these numbers I know I would have missed many of the deeper and weaker signals. This only works with the 180 digital number for me and not the older bar meters or the one with the pointer nettle as they are not fast enough. The new GT will ID deeper with a correct ID than the older Sovereigns, but this is something you will only see once you have learned the Sovereign and its tones I feel. It may only be a inch or so, but every little bit helps.
Two things I feel is so very important that I must have on my Sovereigns and that is a 180 plus the S-1 Sun Ray probe and i am sure you will see others that feel the same way.

Rick

 

[Mike (Virginia Beach)]

I'm with you all the way buddy...the BBS machines ARE great.

As for the DFX, it's actually a TWO frequency machine. I had one for a while...nice machine, but a little depth challenged comapred to a CZ or a GT. But they DO have that extra info, like the Explorer. And for those that need it or want it, nothing wrong with that.

 

[Ron from Michigan]

Used a DFX didn't like it.I thought the Sovereign gave more information.

 

[brobox]

That's still 15 short of the GT As you can tell I am not a Whites user except for my MXT, so I do stand corrected on my post. The point was, the seller of my GT took a $250. loss on a new machine because he would not take the time to learn the tones of the GT and relied on his meter 100%. for target identification. Again, I wanted the tone separation that the GT is famous for and I am very pleased that it does just that.

Chuck in Cape Coral