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Infinium Hype

A

Anonymous

Guest
Although I have never even held an Infinium let alone seen it's schematic I bet I know how the so called discrimination circuit works.
Simply take two samples with the first at say 15uS an the second at say 30uS. Obviously the second sample will be lower in amplitude than the first. OK, so either amplify the second sample or divide the first sample with a potentiometer so that both samples provide the same voltage for a target which is half way between being either a high or a low conductivity target.
the two amplified samples are now input to a difference amplifier. The output of this amplifier will now be positive for targets falling on one side of the halfway point and negative for targets falling on the other side. Connect this signal to a VCO (via a tuning circuit) and you have your high and low tones. You can also use the first sample to output the amplitude or loudness of the signal if desired.
The automatic retuning circuit outputs a positive going signal as the coil passes over a target. As soon as the coil passes the target, the retuning circuit overshoots and causes a negative output. This is why the tone goes from high to low or low to high.
Note that this is ONLY a measure of the targets conductivity. Ferrous targets can cause readings in both the high and low conductivity range. A hair pin (Bobby Pin) will provide a low conductivity signal while a large chunk of iron will provide a high conductivity signal. To refer to the above method as a breakthrough in Discrimination would be nothing but pure hype.
With this said, the method could well prove to be useful as many iron targets can be recognized with enough practice.
 
Dave,
About 30 years ago I had a compus detector that had a zero center meter,a all metal and TR,switch.when I would hit a target meter would go to +.(switch to TR) if meter stayed at + target was non-ferrous or large target.if meter went to NEG,target was ferrous.Will this work on a PI.
Frank.
 
Hi Dave
Using a VLF small pieces of aluminium will read as low conductivity but as you increase mass to screw cap to aluminium can size they of course read as high conductivity.
The problem here with the Infinium is the low high tones. They only indicate high conductivity coins and iron. No aluminium regardless of size is detected with the low high tones. Why doesn't aluminium behave the same way as iron with the Infinium?
George
 
A VLF does not just measure the targets conductivity or resistivity. Both the resistive and the reactive component of the target are measured to provide a discrimination or target ID signal. A PI detector on the other hand only measures the resistive component of the target. The PI therefore cannot easily be compared to a VLF. The circuitry can be set to provide the break point between high and low tone targets to wherever the engineer wants to put it. The setting could also easily be made variable. The main problem with the method is still one of identifying iron. The most likely way that this problem could be resolved is by analyzing the shape of the receive signals decay curve. Signals from iron start by dropping off very fast. The signals then continue for a long time.
 
Frank, Comparing a VLF to a PI is sort of like comparing an airoplane to a helicopter. Both detectors detect metal and both types of aircraft fly. It's all in the way they do it. The VLF or TR, IB, or whatever else it has been called is a vastly different animal to a PI.
Eric made a detector over twenty years ago which provided a ferrous - non ferrous indication. The problem was that highly mineralized ground caused falsing. Still, all is not lost as there are several people around the world who are getting very close to solving at least some of the problems associated with the issue of PI discrimination.
 
Hi Dave,
You are right in that there is a lot of detector hype... from all the manufacturers. But Garrett has been real bad as of late in that department.
I believe that you are right, and more specifically that the dual tones with the Infinium are simply a by-product of the multiple sampling taking place to ground balance the unit. I base this statement on the fact that my Minelab SD/GP detectors have the same kind of response, although I have not worked with the SD/GP tones as extensively. In a nutshell gold tends to have a rising tone and iron a descending tone on my GP 3000. I'll be using it as a coin and jewelry machine a lot in the coming month and so will have more information on targets/tones soon. But a preliminary run indicates a similar target split as occurs with the Infinium.
So from what I can see the Minelab units have always done this, but Minelab has just never touted it as a "feature". I suspect again that it is just a side-effect of the ground balancing system.
I can swear to one thing... it really is useful. I just dug a 1946 silver dime out of a beach littered with aluminum this morning with my Infinium. I've been digging lo-hi tones and so far have found more old coins detecting this summer with my Infinium than with my coin detectors. I just got a Coiltek 14" mono coil for my GP 3000 and intend on doing the same with it. The Infinium with it's 14"x10" mono just edges out every VLF detector I've tried for max coin depth. And my first shot with the GP/14" round mono shows an edge over the Infinium on a silver dime.
The bottom line is splitting the target into two classes with either the Infinium or GP provides me with a significant edge in certain situations that I most certainly would not have with a standard "dig-it-all" PI detector. So from that standpoint Garrett is somewhat justified in their hype. I'm totally hooked on Pulse Induction at this point, but I find it hard to consider any units that are single tone only. It is that useful.
Steve Herschbach
 
Hi Steve, Dave and all,
I agree on the mechanism behind the Hi/Lo tones. The Goldscan PI detector that I made in the early 1980
 
Hi Eric,
This morning I was actually digging all signals doing just that. Looking for jewelry. And basically just digging pull tabs. But then I got that lo-hi and thought "Aha"!
This beach is a freshwater beach in Anchorage, Alaska and as such the jewelry finds are not as common as elsewhere. The people with enough money to wear good jewelry also have enough money to fly somewhere warmer to swim. That said, I've found some nice gold jewelry here. But most all of it from the water.
On the beach itself jewelry is very rare, but as the beach dates back to around 1930 there are some older coins, but they are deep. This may be the most detected real estate in Alaska, and everything in VLF range has been hit hard. I do have a friend with an Explorer and 15" WOT coil who was getting some of those deep coins. But it was after he declared the beach "cleaned out" that I started pulling my older coins with the pulse units.
I'm mostly just exploring the tones, and finding where they can be used to advantage. The simple answer to your question, Eric, is I much prefer having the choice. Dig the hi-lo tones, or dig the lo-hi tones, or dig both. With a single tone unit I get no choice but to dig it all.
For gold nugget detecting the use is straight-forward. Digging hi-lo Infinium or rising tone GP means gold nugget or small wire or flake iron junk. Lo-hi Infinium or descending tone GP has proven to be large iron in every case for me so far. I have doubts it would always be the case, but in a junk heavy area like old tailing piles or camp areas the tones can really swing the odds in my favor over digging all items.
And I'm thinking there are certain older areas long "hunted out" of old coins that a tone PI would revive. Being able to see through more recent aluminum trash would be a major advance. The only real issue I see at this point is the inability to dig the extra-deep hole required!
I really do believe in digging it all when time allows. But if time is limited, I'd rather increase my odds at the possible risk of missing a good target. It all boils down to experience and best-guess strategy.
Name your price on a dual-tone Goldscan and I'd likely pay it. There is a free bit of market research for you!
Steve Herschbach
 
Steve, on another forum you mentioned that the tone feature wasn't mentioned much by Australian prospectors and it is because it is only meant to give an indication of the targets mass as we are forced to assume the target might be a larger nugget. The method proposed by Dave and as used in Eric's Goldscan is the same. It isn't uncommon here to find a large nugget in a partially dug hole and it is usually because the operator simply didn't like the tone going low. (Or high for the 2000 which had the tones reversed. This was changed in later models as the 2000's tone from small nuggets matched the average ground tone change making it harder to hear).
The sole use of tone discrimination has led to a lot of larger nuggets being left for others. A lot still use the tone response in high junk areas where it can be usefull as most nuggets will respond high but is much more faithfull for coin or jewelry hunting where the target size and composition is much more predictable. It has often been proven a huge mistake to assume that a field only produced small nuggets.
I can't comment on the Infinium's response as the only one I've tested still had problems after 3 attempts to have it fixed.
Rob.
 
Hi Robby,
You are absolutely correct, of course. No discrimination system of any sort can be trusted, and this PI tone idea less than most.
But so far it is the closest thing I've seen to a PI discrimination method for Joe Consumer. While you are certainly correct in that a monster nugget can theoretically be found anywhere, it is also true that in the United States we have areas where the chances of finding a nugget weighing even over 1 ounce are nil. So when working a site like that, tones can be helpful. But that miracle big nugget would get missed.
Same story as I told Eric. With tones I at least have an option of listening, applying my knowledge of the area, and reacting to the amount of junk. If an old camp sits on a potential gold location, I'd rather wade through it first digging high tones. Then if I found even one nugget, maybe I'd be more excited about digging the 200 iron items. But to just start digging all the junk is a luxery of time I rarely have.
But no tones, no option.
And as you noted, it is not all about nugget detecting. Most detecting is not for gold nuggets. The bottom line is I'm very excited by the emerging prospect of PI discrimination, and if this is as close as it gets at the moment... well, I'm having fun playing with it.
If you own a Minelab, I don't see as how an Infinium would be of much use to you for nugget detecting. I have had moisture issues with my GP 3000, and so when our Alaskan rain starts pouring I fall back on my Infinium. And tomorrow morning I'll be underwater detecting with the Infinium for jewelry. But for arid terrain nugget detecting the SD/GP units are as good as it gets... at least in my opinion. But still, too bad you are having problems with yours. Mine has been bulletproof so far.
I want the dual tone Goldscan for coin detecting. In fact, less sensitivity to tiny items would be a plus for me. Just max sensitivity on coin-sized items would do me fine. Silver in particular.
Steve Herschbach
 
Dear Steve,
In regards to 14" x 10" Garrett Mono coil and the 14" round mono coil on the GP, they are not equivelant size coils. The nearest comparison of the Minelab coils would be the 11" Mono coil against the 14" x 10" coil.
This would be the same as a 10" x 5" coil being about the same as a 8" round.
With regards to the discrimination, I have posted on my website and the Infinium forum, an article on how to use both the Infinium discriminations properly and in conjunction with each other.
Hopefully it will be of some help to others.
Regards,
Phil
 
Hi Phil,
I know the 14" round mono has an advantage over the 14"x10" mono... that is why I got it! I'm looking for better depth, not "fair comparisons".
That is a very nice article you did... I have referenced from my website. Thank you for the contribution!
Steve Herschbach
 
Hi Steve,
One important point I forgot to mention. All the machines I make have a sample pulse delay control. This enables you to set the delay at a later time, so as to ignore smaller and thinner items of junk, particularly aluminium foil and pull tabs. With the control set back to reject such items, silver and copper coins still come through strong. Scroll down to Billm's post of the 28th June for his experience in this regard.
Minelab PI's do not have this control so the only way of knowing if a target has a shorter or longer signal decay is by means of the tones. The variable pulse delay control is equivalent to progressively switching off the hi/lo's so that you don't even hear them.
I have not seen an Infinium, but I believe it does have a delay control, as I have seen "reverse discrimination" mentioned with regard to this unit. Presumably you can set this control back to ignore foil etc.
Eric.
 
Hi Eric,
The Infinium has a variable discrimination on it, which can be used to set the delay so as items like aluminium foiland pulltabs can be eliminated. Garretts have had this variable delay discrimination on their Sea Hunter PI range for approximately 20 years, give or take a couple. With the Infinium, if this discrimination control is fully turned around to iron check, you can still get high or low tones depending on the target. This is where my article describes how to use the Infinium discrimination properly.
Regards,
Phil
 
Hi! Steve,
I hope you didn't mind me mentioning about the coil differences, as over here, many think that because both have 14" mentioned, they should be comparable.
Thanks for the comment on my article on the Infinium discrimination operation.
Did you find anything interesting in it?
Some day we will have to get together. Maybe the next time we come over to Canada, we might be able to find the extra time to venture further north.
Catch up with you later.
Regards,
Phil
 
Hi Phil,
Know the Seahunter PI's well. Designed in 1982, and went into production in '83. Had a long run as a successful and reliable detector for beach and underwater use.
Eric.
 
Hi Phil,
Yeah, I figured you knew I knew the difference... but could not resist the comeback.
I've been using my Infinium almost daily. Two of my mining partners also just got Infiniums, as they are working well on our ground. Should have lots of Infinium gold to show this summer!
If you ever make it to Anchorage look me up. I sure would like to visit Australia someday, but every year it just seems to get more distant in my plans, not closer. To many better prospects here in Alaska!
I liked your information on using the Disc control in conjunction with the tones. I tend to use tone only but it did make me re-examine my thinking on that subject. Thanks!
Steve Herschbach
 
Phil,
What Eric isn't coming right out to say is that HE is the one who designed the Seahunter for Garrett.
FJ
 
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