Laws make detecting tough these days!

[Florida-Hunter]

I was looking for a better place to start this thread, like under laws perhaps, but I might have missed it...

I used to metal detect in the late 1980's... Then didn't have one til my White MXT which I got about four years ago... I learned quickly that everything changed as far as what is legal or not... and was asked to leave a church parking lot the first week I had it... Who w3ould have guessed that detecting on a gravel parking lot would bug anyone??

Back in the late 80's through to around 1991 and I used to go anywhere and everywhere... and I didn't ask if I could detect in a park every time I turned it on. These days I feel like the only place
I can even legally use the darn thing is at the beach. Wish I could just drive a minute or two down the street and hit some nearby parks and school yards. It's actually kinda sad that both a few hobbyists didn't fill their holes, or damaged property, and that the legislators have put some many rules and regulations on the hobby. I think detecting is sort of, less fun than it use to be. ;(

 

[jmaryt]

you are correct! i been doin' it for over 34 years,and have found it is very different today,than what it was in the 80's or 90's.
the world has changed,and i believe that people ,in general,are " paranoid" because of all the crime,and drug use around them!
also,i believe that generally people notice a detectorist more because we stand out in what we are doing.in my view,this is NOT a good thing
because i want to "blend" into the background,and NOT be bothered! we ARE being watched,and scrutinized because of "poor"
digging methods employed by "some" detectorists. this is NOT a good situation,and will only get worse! watch your back out there!
just sayin'

(h.h.!)
j.t.

 

[skookum]

High guys,
Be happy, that you don

 

[leslie]

Yep ,same here in the U K your not allowed to DIG or DISTURB the SOIL on any COUNCIL OWNED LAND.

Just imagine swinging your detector over a sweet target and not allowed to dig it

BYLAWS ------------------------ I've Shot Em.

Les

 

[Elton]

Since 9/11 ........... people have changed with all the security alerts, privacy issues, and a IN general Paranoia instilled in all of us..

Home Land Security has left it's mark.............. Not always for the good I might say.. Places we used to go are now off limits, or someone is always looking and report every move someone makes..

An example I had was near our water treatment plant...OLD Foundation next door, in an open unfenced area............ Detecting, minding my own business, and all of a sudden three police officers were there... wanting to know why was I near the Water Plant, What was I doing, and then told me to leave when they found out I was not a security threat............. So we can all expect issues where there never were any in past days...

Now I'm not a fanatic, or a government Hatter, ..just an observation I have noticed when out detecting... THINGS HAVE CHANGED !!! Like it, or not..

 

[salmonriverhotrock]

Been at it here in Idaho for about 30 years and I know what your saying. It's like there are eyes all around watching you. Here in Idaho, I think we are 3rd or 4th in the Nation for the amount of Federal lands in the boundaries of a State. As well, Government is getting bigger and bigger and serving itself much more, and they are also taking more seriously, the Historical Preservation Acts and the Antiquities Act. On top of that, you have plain clothed Historians and Archaeologists running around as if Police themselves.

It's funny that back in to the 80's, most of those people had no care at all about the things the average metal detectorists were looking for as long as it was not in Battle Grounds or obvious or known archaeological sites. Now Archaeologists think it's all theirs to search for and have the severity of the Law to back them up.

Boy, what it would have been like to metal detect back to the 40's. Even with the machines of the 60's, those guys got a lot a virgin ground or places to detect and a great deal of it without having to ask. In my detecting years here in Idaho, mostly in the brush, I've only seen about 2 sites that shovel holes were not filled in and at one of those locations, they missed a Wheat Penny and an old Broach. A 3rd location I saw where smaller hand digging tool holes were left and a 4th where they dug with shovel in an old dump hole or trash pit and were running a screen, leaving the sifted pile and the dig hole behind. Other than that, I think the largest number of people detecting are pretty good guys but most are unaware of the Laws.

 

[Smudge]

So is it the concensus of the group that our hobby is slowly dying?

 

[Tired Rooster]

I think our freedoms in general are slowing dying.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I see a few others who have hunted for 30+ yrs. have commented on how it used to be more care-free, less "laws", etc... in the "old days". So I must chime in on this point:

I started in the mid 1970s. At that time, I merely went where my mentors and friends went. Eg.: since they took me with them to the old school yards and/or parks, well then .... duh .... that's just where I went. It never occured to them, or me, that there might be anything amiss or wrong. Afterall, they were public parks or schools, so ....... why should we think anything any different? Of course we had the presence of mind to go at times when the school was not in use, and go at low traffic times at parks, but beyond that, ..... not a care in the world.

Fast forward to the very early 1980s, and by then, our town had a club established. And at that time, the FMDAC had just come out, and was now sending out their monthly periodiocals. Our club joined the organization, so we started to receive these mailers. For the first time, as these newsletters were read out loud at each meeting, we began to hear scary stories of restrictive laws, fines, arrests, hassles, bootings, and so forth. And each issue emplored us to join in solidarity to get parks in far-away places back open, write letters, etc.. And the tone was immistakable: fight now, or this is "coming to a town near you!"

But here's what I distinctly recall seeing in those days, as these new fears began to be read aloud: You could look around the room at the 25 or so people, as these things were read aloud, and their eyes would be as big as silver dollars. You know: "oh my gosh, we're in trouble, what if we get arrested?" and so forth. I mean, keep in mind, that prior to this, it really never occured to any of us that there might be some laws about parks, beaches, school yards, etc.... Now all of the sudden, we were reading actual accounts of (gasp) arrests, tickets, confiscations, and so forth, from far away places (but... of course "coming to a town near you" if you don't act now"). And of course, each issue was packed with admonitions imploring you to know the laws in your area, abide by all laws, ask permission, and so forth. This was also at about the same time that all the manufacturers also became very diligent in printing the "code of ethics" in their sales literature/manuals too.

What happened next though, is something that you could only see if you had been there "before and after": People began to inquire at places they came to, or perhaps even places they ALREADY had been detecting, to make sure it was alright to metal detect. You know, like they interpretted the "know and abide by all laws" as meaning they needed to ask permission or ask powers-that-be if it was alright to detect. Afterall: you wouldn't want to "get arrested" would you? In other words, the scary stories tended to prompt people to double-check, ask city clerks or cops or whatever, lest they be in violation of the code of ethics. An interesting thing started to happen: Places that had simply been detected, and no one had ever cared, all of the sudden started becoming "off-limits". Bootings started occuring where it had simply been an ignored activity in prior years. Old-timers were left scratching their heads.

But ironically, I believe the very ASKING and the very CLARIFYING of all these md'rs, became the very nucleus of WHY this was happening! Because often-time, when these skittish folk appeared at city hall, or county hall, or park dept's kiosks, etc... and started asking (afterall, they don't want to be a stastic, right?) then all of the sudden, you had confused deskbound clerks fielding these "Pressing questions", right? So they go through their rule books, find something they can morph to tell you "no", and presto! No more metal detecting!! I saw this happen at several places just in my part of my state, where no one had ever cared prior to that! And then these same kiosk clerks (who perhaps never gave the matter thought before), guess what happens when they're driving around later, and see another md'r?? They remember the earlier inquiry, and start booting others!

Do you see the self-fulfilling psychology of all this? I know it's hard to imagine now, but for those of you who have been doing this since the 1970s, perhaps you can relate to this. It's as if we were our own worst enemy, eh?

 

[Elton]

Yep ....your right on Tom.... We even had people turned away from spots due to a law on the books about digging a pit for your back yards, or in parks ..Not allowed for fire pits..The key word was no digging..Boy did that stop a lot of places allowed prior for detecting.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I even heard of one fellow who asked if he could metal detect in the parks where he lived. The confused lady at the city clerk's counter, looked around through her city codes and such, and answered: "well I don't see why not. Go ahead".

The elated md'r thanked her and added: ".... and I'll be sure to cover all my holes" (guess he thought he was a real winner with that line, eh?). Immediately upon hearing the word "holes", the city clerk said "oh, hold on, let me check something". She excused herself from the front counter, and went to some other rooms down the hall. The md'r could see her poke her head into various other offices of her superiors, confering with other personell.

She returned to the front counter, and tells the man, "I'm going to have to tell you no". The man, suspecting this was arbitrary and baseless, asked "but why not? you just told me I could??" She hands the man a brochure from the utility company, which said "Call before you dig". The md'rs looked at the brochure, and realized this was meant for const. co's diggin with back-hoes and such, in danger of hitting utility lines. So he hands the brochure back to the lady, and said: "But mam, I'm only going to be digging a few inches deep. This information is for guys with tractors and such digging deep trenches!"

The lady takes the brochure back, and flips through it again, reading the fine print. She hands it back to the man again and says: "well it doesn't say HOW deep, it just says all digging. So we're still going to have to tell you 'no' ". The confused md'r left more confused than when he'd arrived! True story!

The sad part is: a) probably no one had even cared, nor would it have ever crossed anyone's mind, and he'd probably have been ignored if he'd have simply just gone. And b) now guess what's going to happen when this same clerk sees another md'r in the park or school, whom she previously would never have noticed, or given thought to? She'll start booting others!

See how the pschology works? No one cared till he asked!!

 

[michaelosully]

Don't know to who to attribute the saying but I quote "it's easier to ask for forgiveness than to get permission". My city's parks department said no to MD'ing but when pressed on the issue, they finally acknowledged that MD'ing is OK but said "you cannot dig". Sounds just like Germany??? Said it was destroying public property. They no longer allow people to hit golf balls in the parks either...makes divots I guess.

The personal right and freedoms us older Americans have enjoyed are gradually eroding. Time to vote'em all out! If they are an incumbent they are accountable for the mess we are in...but I am getting off topic.

I personally have not yet challenged the 'powers that be' that make these decisions on a local level as I do try to spend more time enjoying MDing than fighting for the right to MD. However, I did recently send an inquiry to the Society for American Archaeology (SAA) for having this bit of MISINFORMATION on their website:

"Generally, it is illegal to surface collect, metal detect, or dig on any federal lands without a federal permit."

Here is the link if you would want to read their thoughts:
http://www.saa.org/ForthePublic/Resources/MetalDetectingInArchaeology/METALDETECTINGARCHAEOLOGYSITESANDTHELAW/tabid/1031/Default.aspx

I believe this to be 'intentional' dissemination of misinformation but the unknowing person believes it when they read it. After all, the SAA are the experts and must know the laws [].

Guess I've said enough but did I say VOTE EM ALL OUT? ... I digress.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Michael, look closely at what you said, and read between the lines:

" ...... they finally acknowledged that MD'ing is OK but said "you cannot dig". ....... Said it was destroying public property. "

The key factor is the end result, that they themselves acknowledged: "Destruction". Because let's face it: the implication of the word "digging", is "holes" and "damage" and "destruction", right? But think of it: If you leave absolutely no trace of your presence, the presto, you have not "destroyed" or "damaged" or "destructed" anything, now have you? So the real factor here is how you leave the location.

So if you ask me, I will NOT leave those mental implications in the hands of any desk-bound bureaucrats to make assumptions about (that I might be a moron about to leave a mess). So to me, I will NOT equate my hobby as being equivalent to destruction, vandalism, etc... Because to do so (to make the automatic equivalence that detecting necessarily destroys things), is to have already lost the battle, before you even begin. Because NO park will ever allow you to "destroy" things. So if you're not destroying things, then why make yourself the target of a "no", when odds are, no one really cared? (till you asked)

 

[michaelosully]

Tom,
Please re-read my reponse above. Don't think I said (even between the lines) that the end result should be "in the hands of any desk-bound bureaucrats". I said what I said clearly and concisely. I would also say that I agree wholeheartedly with you that diggin' a target 6 or 8 inches deep and then filling the hole is not destruction. Also didn't say that I don't MD my town's public parks ... In the words of Lou Costello: "I'm a baaad boy".

I choose my battles and I decide at what level I wage the war. If my local officials ever decide I need to fight the battle at the local level, guess I'll then fight the battle at the local level. I do hunt NF and BLM more often than town park's so would like to hear input from other MD'ers on the SAA's metal detecting webpage.

Thanks, Tom for giving me another chance to say VOTE 'EM ALL OUT...but again, this is a bit off topic.

 

[skookum]

Hello,
The problem is : on the trail near Timbuktu (or nowhereland for that matter), the chances of finding jewellery is nigh ZERO.
So if your really looking for valuables, you

 

[jmaryt]

in all honesty,i have always "known" it is the "smart" play
to check before hand,however i seldom,if ever do it for precisely
the reasons you indicated in your post!i KNOW that IF i "do the correct thing"
and ask,i will be told "no!" so just by going to various public places and hunting,
i am truly NOT bothered! "screwy!..i know! ,but that is exactly what happens,and this
has been taking place for me,for over 34 years of involvement in the hobby!
just sayin'

(h.h.!)
j.t.

 

[Elton]

More cities having control to where you can detect............. More bans on digging.

 

[Florida-Hunter]

Wow! Some great points since this thread was started! I never thought about the "Psychological" factor, By asking to MD, could further enforce a "NO" answer... Actually that makes a lot of sense! I also think SKOKUM is right about MD certain places when the people won't actually be there... I just discovered the joy of beach detecting during the night hours... Case in point. Not that it's against any law to detect on beaches... However, I just don't like dealing with the riff raff, or the curious, or even the few folks that think your a dork and look at you in a condescending way since you've got a metal detector in your hands.

I remember getting in a sort of forum thread argument on another forum about how I was kicked off the church parking lot for MDing... The guy at the lot was pretty irate and threatened to call the cops if I didn't leave. I was kind of mad over the whole issue. The thing that really got me was that I also detected on the grounds of another, different church a week earlier, and a cop was parked in the church parking lot and watched me, but never said or did a thing. So... Seems to me that, it all comes down to whether or not you happen to hit a nerve with the wrong person, and how can you ease that type of situation.... and of course, you aren't dumb about it, such as detecting on a historical and preserved site.

 

[Elton]

The police in general can not ask you to leave "Private" property unless they have been asked to look out for said areas.. "Special watch"........ if your not breaking a law.

That said.The Minister, Decons, Priests, Maintenace people can certainly ask you to leave private property. We have to keep an open mind to what is Private, or public welcome property.

 

[targets]

the problem is that a full blown machine with headphones being waved in a public place attracts attention , so the makers need to come up with new ideas that dont aggravate passers by and officials .
machines need to be more covert or they wont sell any in the future .
if there wasnt a detector in evidence and you were just bending down digging a small hole they wouldn't be any the wiser.
and just take no notice of you .
dogs and vermin dig small holes and nobody bothers them .

a big rig in a public place sets alarm bells ringing

you could try the shoe detectors with the coil in the soles of the shoe and no stem