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Threshold Challenge

S505

New member
So we can stop beating this dead horse called threshold I propose someone demonstrate the X-terra's threshold doing something other than turning off when a target is detected. Our goal should keep the following passage from the X-terra 305/505 manual in mind.

"The Threshold volume should be set to the
preferred level. It is important to note that
small surface objects, as well as large deep
objects, will produce very small changes in the
Threshold sound. It is therefore important to
set the Threshold control correctly to ensure
that these targets are heard."

Here are a couple ideas but feel free to come up with your own: show threshold change in pitch or volume just by passing your coil over a target. Show a target's audible beep change in some way (eg. volume, beep's presence/absence) just by changing the threshold setting.

Here is the rule:

1. Your demonstration must be reproducible. This means you must be able to do it at will and you must be able to clearly explain to the rest of us how we can reproduce your demonstration. This includes all detector settings, target id, target depth, ground matrix type / or in air, etc.

For the record, I think the manual is worded poorly and misleads as a result but there are users who claim threshold does as advertised. I also like my 505 and this is not an attempt to bash this detector or any other. I (and I think all of us) want to be sure targets are not being missed because threshold is set wrong. So, if you know how to make threshold work, do us all a favor and demonstrate it!

Cheers,

S505
 
.......to be honest.....I use my 70 wide open in 2 tones so it doesn't null.
I like to hear all the low tone iron so when a good target appears, it screams through. You also gain that the machine won't have to recover after hitting iron.
It's not for everyone and can get a bit busy but that's the way I've always worked. You get used to it after a while!!!!
I just set my threshold so I can just hear it. I know it's there but it doesn't hinder me.

Gaz.
 
As I posted nearly three years ago, I proved to myself (and my brother) the "Threshold challenge" while hunting for old coins in a picked bean field. He called to see if I wanted to come over and hunt a site where he'd found an 1854 half dime a few months earlier. I was a bit under the weather, and said I'd take a raincheck. But I asked him to call me back if he found anything interesting. About an hour later, he called and told me he had found four or five IH cents and another half dime. Putting ill health aside, I loaded up the truck and headed west. About an hour later, I arrived at the site and immediately walked over to see his latest finds. After showing me the coins, I asked where he intended to resume his hunt and where he had already looked. I started up a row and within 5 minutes got a narrow, mid-high tone that indicated a TID of 22 - 24. I Xed back and forth over the target and got a bit of iron reading from one direction. But I dug it because it met my 3 consistency requirements. Location, sound and visual TID. Digging down to about 3 - 4 inches, I uncoverd a beautiful 1852 Silver 3-cent piece and a square nail. For those unfamiliar with the US silver 3-cent piece, it is the smallest silver coin ever produced by the US Mint. It measures 14mm in diameter, has a plain edge and weighs .8 gram. It is made of 75% silver and 25% copper. For comparison sake, a silver dime weighs more than 3 times as much as the 3-cent silver, and is nearly 4 mm larger in diameter. So you get an idea as to how thin and small the silver 3-cent piece is.

[attachment 197851 3centpiecejustaboutclean.jpg]

Anyway, I walked over to where my brother was detecting and he asked what I'd found. I tossed the 3-cent piece on the ground and told him to tell me what he thought it was, based on the TID. Keep in mind we were both using X-TERRA 70's and both using the 6-inch DD coils at 18.75 kHz. He scanned his coil over the over the area where I tossed the coin and still got no signal. He knew that his detector was working because he'd been digging coins. So to find out why he couldn't hit on a coin I had just pulled from a depth of 3 - 4 inches, we made a direct comparison of all our settings. Both of us had used Auto NC and each detector was running quietly. Both detectors were running full volume. Each of us were using Gray Ghost Originals at full bore. Both of us had used Auto GB and each detector indicated a ground phase setting of 38. Both of us were running with a Sensitivity setting of 28. We were each using a "wide open" Pattern with zero discrimination, multiple tones. The ONLY difference in all of our settings was the Threshold. I had mine set at 5 and his was at 14. He lowered his to 5, where he could just barely hear it, and reswept the area where I had dropped the silver 3-cent piece. He looked up and said that it was coming in loud and clear, with a TID of 24. We raised my Threshold up to 14, where his had been, and I could not hit the coin. I lowered it back down to the 5 that I typically use and hit it with every sweep.

Having been in this hobby for going on 40 years, I've seen a lot of weird things. But when he was unable to detect the silver 3-cent piece, laying on top of the ground, using the same detector/coil combination that I was, and using ALL the same settings that I was using except for Threshold...... then when the only change he made to his detector was to lower the Threshold to the barely audible level of 5, found the coin with no problem, that is all the "Threshold challenge" I need to witness. Whether anyone else wants to believe the manual, or take the word of someone who has proven to himself (me) the importance of a properly set Threshold is entirely up to the individual. JMHO HH Randy
 
Very good explanation Randy. Point well taken, and I totally agree. :thumbup:

HH,
Cors
 
Thanks Randy, you are a wealth of information. Do you believe the manual passage I have posted above? and Is it possible that I am using the detector to its full potential if I never have a threshold setting that causes small surface objects, as well as large deep objects to produce very small changes in the Threshold sound?

If you answer "No" to the first question, and "Yes" to the second, then I can stop trying to hear a small change in the threshold. I can then concentrate on figuring out how to determine the correct threshold setting which will not cause my detector to completely miss a small surface target (and I assume deep ones as well). I have not had any luck doing either and really hope someone can set up conditions I can reproduce. I do not have a silver three cent piece. Have you experienced this with any other targets? Is a silver dime too big?

Obviously, setting threshold arbitrarily to a "preferred" level per the manual is the wrong thing to do.

Cheers,
S505
 
Boy I would love to get rid of the (dreaded) "small surface items". AND still be able to hit the deep dimes. I kinda run on faith that the lower threshold is a good thing. I can (just) barely hear the tone and nulling and in there is (excessive) noise I probably can't. I hunt with a set of DetectorPro Bushmasters and wide open in the controller and loud as is comfortable on the DPs. It took me a while to get my mind around it. BUT, When I was new to the hobby and had My brand new shiny 705 it had a Threshold of like 15(?) from the factory. I followed advice and turned it down, (I run at 3 or 4), after that I started hitting a little bit deeper coins and older as an added bonus. This was no miracle sound for me but it did help.

Reproducible, well yes, but not as an experiment. From me anyhow. What I would suggest is to try it and hunt the same OLD sites you already cleaned.

Myself, I often run AM and go pretty slow so sometimes it does not make a big difference to the nulling side of the equation. However when I hear that nulling get to frequent that is when I switch to AM and slow down.


Didn't Barnacle Bill have a use for negative Threshold? I think it was to set the Threshold below 0 and that helped to eliminate small foil type items and still pull the deeper stuff. Hmmm I will have to look that up.

HH
Jeff
 
Great info. I have been running mine at 14 and will try reducing mine in a place that has been giving up silver for a while. Would the threshold go up on a larger coil or size wouldnt mater?
 
Digger said:
The ONLY difference in all of our settings was the Threshold. I had mine set at 5 and his was at 14. He lowered his to 5, where he could just barely hear it, and reswept the area where I had dropped the silver 3-cent piece. He looked up and said that it was coming in loud and clear, with a TID of 24. We raised my Threshold up to 14, where his had been, and I could not hit the coin. I lowered it back down to the 5 that I typically use and hit it with every sweep.

Having been in this hobby for going on 40 years, I've seen a lot of weird things. But when he was unable to detect the silver 3-cent piece, laying on top of the ground, using the same detector/coil combination that I was, and using ALL the same settings that I was using except for Threshold...... then when the only change he made to his detector was to lower the Threshold to the barely audible level of 5, found the coin with no problem, that is all the "Threshold challenge" I need to witness. Whether anyone else wants to believe the manual, or take the word of someone who has proven to himself (me) the importance of a properly set Threshold is entirely up to the individual. JMHO HH Randy

Still don't see why you would use threshold at all. What targets could I possible miss by not using threshold? You only get into trouble when you use that feature, not when you're not using it.
 
.......there is another factor to this........not everyones hearing is the same.
To some people with poorer hearing.....14 may just be audible......those with better hearing may be able to just hear it at 5.

Now.....if lowering the threshold to 5 causes tiny shallow/surface finds to blast through and not be missed as in Randy and his brother's situation......does it matter if you can't hear the hum??

Gaz.
 
When you read this, you may wonder why I support the theory of using a "barely audible Threshold". If I had not witnessed what happened during the hunt when I dug the silver 3-cent piece, I wouldn't have believed that Threshold could play the role that it seemed to have played. But I saw what I saw, and made every effort to find another explanation. Since that day, I've ran the subject of Threshold through my mind hundreds of times. I've tried to duplicate the scenerio, without success. At this time, I simply haven't come up with another rational explanation.

With that said, I don't interpret the functionality (usefulness) of the Threshold sound the same as what some might, including the passage you posted from the manual. I do agree that Threshold and audio Volume should work "hand in hand". In other words, we shouldn't mistakenly raise our Threshold level to compensate for a lower Volume level. Or vice-versa. But I believe that the Volume control simply increases the target response by a specific amount of amplification. I do not believe it is a consistent "flat line" sound level. When a larger or more shallow target produces more "target signal strength" to the software, it's audio response will be "louder" than a smaller or deeper target because the small, deep targets provide less initial "target signal strength" to the software. That is why I believe that amplification is gradiant, not consistent or "flat line". While on the subject of target audio responses, I also believe that smaller, deeper targets are not necessarily "fainter" signals. I believe many of them are actually more "narrow" signals. This is based on the "field of detection" for the coil designs used on the X-TERRA. In support of my thoughts, more times than not, when I hear what I first perceive to be a "faint signal", I can slow down my sweep, X over the target, and get a much more distinct audio target response than initially heard. Not always louder. But definitely more distinct. It is no longer "faint". But it typically remains more "narrow". I won't argue the differences between "faint" and "narrow" as I feel it is most likely a matter of symantics.

In response to one of your questions, if you have your Threshold set so you can hear it, the only "change" you will hear is when it is replaced with either the nulling of a rejected target or the audio response of an accepted target.
Over all, here is my take on it...... Threshold level and Volume level are two separate controls with two different purposes. The Threshold setting is nothing more than a volume control for the Theshold tone. It has a 31 segment range that can be lowered to 5 "points" below zero (silent search) to 25 "points" above zero. When you increase the Threshold setting, you are simply increasing the audio volume of that 230 Hz "background" tone. Volume settings start at 0 and increase to a max of 30. Volume is the "loudness" of the target's audio response. In other words, the target response is amplified to the factor represented by the Volume setting you have incorporated. If you set your Volume to 30, all targets will be amplified to the full extent of the X-TERRA. If you have it at 1, you will basically hear the same unamplified signal that is being processed through the receive circuitry. Simply a matter of amplification of the signal strength, not a flat line audio level. With Volume settings at or near the max, larger targets will be "louder" than smaller targets. And more shallow targets will be "louder" than deep targets. In the Coin / Treasure mode, the Threhsold operates at 230 Hz. Even when operating in multiple tone mode, NONE of the target tones duplicate the frequency of the Threshold. When you pass over a target, regardless of whether you have rejected that particular notch segment or accepted it, the Threshold "goes away" for a split second before being replaced by the "null" of a rejected target or the target tone of an accepted target. When you consider Threshold and target response to be two separate and distinct tones, and the Threshold "goes away" before being replaced by either nulling or the target tone, one could argue that Threshold volume plays no role in hearing individual targets. And to a certain degree, with specific operational settings, I would concur. (e.g. zero discrimination and multiple tones) However, even if you are monitoring all notch segments in zero discrimination, not all targets produce the same volume level of audio response. As I said, larger, more shallow targets will produce a tone that is "louder" than smaller, deep targets. If you agree so far, consider this scenerio.....

Let's say that you are hunting with a degree of discrimination. As such, you want to use a Threshold tone so you can be aware of any target blanking. When I hunt with my 705 and Gray Ghost NDT's, I set my Threshold at 5. This Threshold volume setting of 5 is required for me to hear that "just barely" audible 230 Hz Threshold tone. In other words, if it were set lower, I couldn't hear any tone at all. If I set it higher, it becomes annoying. I have my audio Volume set at the max of 30. Your settings for both may vary, depending on your hearing ability. With my settings as described, when I pass the coil over a large or shallow target that is within an accepted notch segment, it provides an audio response that is quite loud. This is due to the large target having it's target signal strength amplified to the fullest extent of the X-TERRA. However, what if I pass the coil over a small, deeply buried target that wouldn't provide the X-TERRA with as much "target signal strength"? The answer is, it won't provide as much target signal strength to the X-TERRA, resulting in a target audio response that is not as "loud" as the larger target provided. Remember, Volume is applied amplification, not a flat line audio level. If you agree with that, what if that target audio response was so "faint" or "narrow" that it only provided 10% as much initial "target signal strength" as the larger target mentioned earlier? In that instance, the Threshold of 5 (that was required for me to hear any tone) is now replaced by a target audio response of 3. (+/- 10% of the 30 max volume setting). If it takes a sound level of 5 for me to hear any tone, I won't be able to hear the "3" level audio tone being produced by the small, deep target. Even worse, if I had set my Threshold at a level higher than actually required to hear it, say 14 as in the example I gave earlier, that Threshold becomes a "baseline" for my "listening level". If I have difficulties separating the pitches of the multiple frequencies, or I don't hear the Threshold being replaced by a target response tone of a different pitch, or I simply like to "dig when it beeps" and don't pay attention to any tone "louder" than the "14" that I have set as the volume level for my Threshold, I'll certainly miss a lot of targets. Those are 3 of the reasons I hunt in multiple tone, minimal discrimination and a barely audible Threshold.

At this time, I have not been able to duplicate my 3-cent silver "experience" for the sake of making a video. But I would be of the opinion that a dime would be much too large to get results similar to those I encountered. JMHO HH Randy


Barnacle Bill pointed out in a prior post (Bill was also one of the original Field Testers), he might run with a negative Threshold when he wants to "ignore" surface targets. http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,757051,757619#msg-757619. He also pointed out in another post that setting your Threshold high, to compensate for having a low volume, can be a recipe for missing goodies. http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,757051,757278#msg-757278
 
Barnacle Bill pointed out in a prior post (Bill was also one of the original Field Testers), he might run with a negative Threshold when he wants to "ignore" surface targets. http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,757051,757619#msg-757619. He also pointed out in another post that setting your Threshold high, to compensate for having a low volume, can be a recipe for missing goodies. http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,757051,757278#msg-757278
 
....Randy....once again I am in awe of the knowledge you've gained on this machine.
It's through your hard work and attention to detail that allows us to get the maximum from our machines in such a short space of time.
Many thanks again for taking the time to post such a comprehensive angle to this thread. :thumbup: :ukflag:

Gaz.
 
Good post Digger. Based on your current post and the experience of many X-terra users, if we were to write a meaningful manual entry to replace the current one for the threshold function, the following might be a good start?

The Xterra
 
Careful,

What is an interesting phenomenon is that using even less Threshold will get rid of some unwanted foil bits at shallow depth (should also get rid of those ultra tiny rusty staples). Now this is something that I have been able to recreate. You should be able to also. Find a park with lots of little foil bits and play with the Threshold down to 0 then down to negative numbers. It worked for me, I choose not to hunt with that setting though.

Here is the problem though, with to low of Threshold setting you loose a "boost" that is given to weak targets. That would be small Gold and deep Silver. My best understanding is that the Threshold setting works to boost the signal to a hearable level, BUT if the Tone is set to loud then it overrides the signal it is helping to boost. The thing I am not sure about is wether it is boosting the signal from the 1929 Merc to the coil OR from the electronics to the speaker, I suspect the latter is the case.

Try this, go to park and find the foil on or near the surface. turn down Thresh and listen to your sweeps then turn up the Thresh and see at what point the signal disappears again. This should be a valid test.

Do try to not move the foil from the spot it sits so as not to disturb its surrounding soil and alter the halo.

HH
Jeff
 
Thanks Jeff. Your logic makes sense and goes along with the manual. I tried but was not able to reproduce in the house what you see at the park. (I know, not much of a test- but today I am stuck inside). No doubt, lots of uncontrolled variables in the park, foil size/shape, foil type, detector settings, etc etc etc. The big variable is that I am using a 505 instead of a 705, maybe the 505 just does not have that ability or I need some ground. How do we even know that the first 505 off the line worked the same with respect to threshold as those produced today? If you have the time and desire could you set up some foil and reproduce this in your yard (or house) and let me know how to set it up?

What I did was stack up a bunch of zipperless pillows (to move away from the nails in the floor), put various sizes of foil on top, and pass the coil over. This was with the X-terra 505, 9
 
Between 19 and 16 on the Sens will get you smaller targets, deeper, think gold chain. .4cm x .4cm foil DUDE I am fairly sure I have dug soil that size 2 to 3 inches deep, waded up into a little tiny ball. If I know a neat trick to get rid of that crud there are times and places where I will use it every time. Like the newer park where I do not want to dig any thing past sod depth, yes I will lower the Sens but I still hit the foil (drat). Now it may not always work in my favor, but in the area that is FILLED with the little foil then I am OK with taking the chance that I will also loose that little Gold earring. Some settings will make certain trash targets sound better and more diggable. Now playing with the settings will make trash sound less diggable.

I think all air tests should be done with the coin or coil sitting on the ground so that the machine has to cope with the minerals and GB circuit. The primary thing learned by air testing is sound and ultimate depth of some detectors. It would seem that the BBS and FBS machines need the ground to be there to get depth, but the tone should be similar. (IMHO)

Really, it takes digging lots of targets to learn the nuances of the settings, and how they sound, then I will no longer need to cheat the settings to disc out the foil

Try wadding the foil into balls.

Cheers
Jeff
 
Jeff, I hope to do this outside over the weekend. I do have some foil balls ready with the smallest being made from the 0.4 x 0.4 cm foil square (makes a ball ~1 mm diameter) and the largest being from a foil piece 1.5 X 2.5 cm (makes a ball ~4 mm in diameter). I hate to be a skeptic but I'm thinking there is no chance that my detector will hit the ball made from the 0.4 X 0.4 cm foil on the surface, let alone at any depth. Are you sure you've hit a foil ball this small at 2-3 inches? Maybe I misunderstood and you meant a foil ball 0.4cm in diameter and not a foil piece 0.4x0.4cm wadded up in a ball. My detector would barely hit the small one as a square presenting a lot more surface area to the coil. Just to give you an idea on the small ball's size relative to a Roosevelt dime, this ball will fit in Teddy's ear and I seriously think I could shove it down his ear canal. The largest foil ball would be a comfortable ear muff for Ted. Two of the four balls are too small to handle and recovery from a hole would be a bit aggravating. The only way to deal with them is to have them held in cellulose tape squares (actually I have all of them like this). Hopefully, I will see some threshold discrimination action on some of these on the ground.


S505
 
Dude I am telling you, these machines will sound off on real tiny stuff when you turn up the Sens. The sound of the beep is so important and I am getting better at understanding what I am hearing. I think the limit is when you hold the machine still and it still chirps when held over clean(ish) ground. I try to run it high as I can without chasing ghosts and hearing the white noise and non stop falsing. I USUALLY hunt with one of the DD HF coils and some times with the 10.5 round MF DD. The HF coils are worse for this, better if you are out after the AU. I have only been out nugget hunting a couple times so far, since I have had this hobby.
 
Okay, I could not wait and went outside to my testing ground this morning in the drizzle to nail this down. This is the same exact spot where all of my depth/sensitivity tests were done (see my previous posts over the last few months or so). Xterra 505, 9 inch MF concentric coil, volume at the maximum of 30, tones 99, sensitivity at the maximum of 20, NC -2 running quiet, ground balance 14 (scale is 1 to 50 on the 505), wide open pattern, this time Kroger brand aluminum foil, targets on the surface of the ground with very little grass, I am barefoot-no steel shanks or eyelets on shoes etc . Drum roll please........... foil ball #1 (made from a 4mmx4mm foil square with a final diameter of 1 mm) could not be detected at all - no surprise there. No amount of scrubbing the coil on the target could get anything from the detector. Foil ball #2 (made from a foil rectangle 7mm x 7mm with a final diameter of 2 mm) could not be detected at all - not much of a surprise. Foil ball #3 (made from a foil square 15mm x 15mm with a final diameter of 3mm) could be detected with an ID of -9. Now I was able to test the threshold discrimination function by running the threshold over the range -5 to 25. Over the entire range of threshold the target was ID 'd at -9 with a rare ID of 48 (by rare maybe 1 coil sweep out of 15 gave an ID of 4:geek:. There was no noticeable difference in the detector's ability to sound off on the target regardless of threshold. Foil ball #4 (made from a foil rectangle 15mmx25mm with a final diameter of 4 mm), again reliably detected with an ID of -9 with the rare 48. Threshold having absolutely no noticeable impact on the detector's ability to detect the target. Just for fun I raised the coil to get an idea of the maximum distance foil ball 4 could be detected and the detector lost it at an estimated 1.5 inches. Note that at these settings the detector is running as "hot" as it can get (with the 9in MF concentric on my ground). I dropped sensitivity stepwise and at 16 foil ball #4 could no longer be detected at any distance.

In summary, changing from foil squares to foil balls while moving the attempt outside over ground to bring the ground balance circuitry and mineralization into play did not allow me to reproduce the elusive threshold discrimination function. I am open to suggestions....

Cheers,
S505
 
You said your were open to suggestions........ the differences in performance might be attributed to the fact that we're not comparing apples to apples. You are using your 505. Corsairian and Gaz are talking about their X-70's, Jeff and I are referencing our 705's and I don't know that Heelgrasper even has an X-TERRA as the post he made in this string is the only post he has made on Findmall. Several "considerations" would be that the Auto GB mode of the 70 and 705 are 10 times more accurate than manually setting the GB, regardless of the X-TERRA model you're using. Unfortunately, your 505 does not have Auto GB. Even if we were able to manually adjust our GB to the best of our ability using manual GB, the range for your ground phase adjustment goes from 0 - 50 and ours goes from 1 - 90. Auto NC is also far more accurate than manually setting the noise cancel channel. Again, your 505 does not have Auto NC. You mentioned setting your Sensitivity to the max at 20. The Sensitivity range on your 505 goes from 1 - 20. Ours goes from 1 - 30. That doesn't necessarily make the maximum and the minimum any different. But it does have an effect on where it should be set for maximim performance. (Max Sensitivity does not equate to maximum depth). The processor used in the 505 is not the same processor as used in either the X-70 or the 705. According to Minealb, the 505 is enhanced and the 705 is maximized. The software is also different, due to the different operational parameters for each model. Add to that the fact you are using the 9-inch concentric at 7.5 kHz on your aluminum foil balls and I was using the 6-inch DD at 18.75 kHz for the silver 3-cent coin find. There are simply too many "differences" in the equipment we're each using, to draw any conclusive analysis. And that is without even going into the Prospecting mode or the response you might get by using it. As you said in an earlier post, there are "way too many variables between my experiment and his experience". To that, I totally agree. If an X-TERRA is an apple, we all have apples. But when you compare their electronic attributes, the X-30, X-305, X-50, X-505, X-70 and X-705 are each an entirely different species of apples.


Now with all that said, I still can't duplicate the Threshold circumstances that I witnessed on the silver 3-cent piece. Regardless, of the possible adjustment to the 705. The Threshold seems to have a mind of it's own.

Just in case some of you are curious, here are a couple pictures of that 3-cent silver, obverse and on edge, compared to a US Silver dollar. Gives a better indication of the small size silver we're talking about. JMHO HH Randy

[attachment 198347 silverdollarand3centsilver009-Copy.JPG] [attachment 198348 silverdollarand3centsilver010-Copy.JPG]
 
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