Why Slow Recovery Speed Is Better IMHO

[scoper]

Are you sweeping the coil lengthways over the nail or with the nail vertical to the target.Also try the test with the targets actually in the ground where it matters.......the results will give a more accurate indication of the sovs ability.

 

[JimmyCT]

Felix,

This may be the article you are talking about:


http://pweb.netcom.com/~jimyce/tips/mltip1.html

Written by Robert Arnold of Horizon Distributing

The Sovereign is worlds apart from a CZ or XLT first off both of these units use ground balance to filter out the ground signal. This is key when you filter out the bad you always filter out some of the good to put it simply. The Sovereign does not filter at all. In a traditional sense it Ground ID's and compares a ground signal with a target vs. a ground signal without a target.

Because the Sovereign is using 17 frequencies to look through the ground, not only is it more accurate because it looks at the target 17 times in a sense. It is a proven fact that different frequencies travel through different material at different rate of speed and intensity and therefore affects depth penetration. If the ground you are hunting is hot on 12 Khz. then a Tesoro detector will do real well as will the Sovereign because it hunts with a 12Khz signal, but the CZ and XLT will have trouble getting the depth because they do not have a 12kHZ frequency Now if the ground likes 4.5KHZ then the XLT or CZ7 will hit hard at better depth but so will the Sovereign because it also hunts with 4.5Khz., and so on and so on. See where we are going with this line...

Now consider this, The Sovereign gives you a negative signal over 99% of all iron (only being fooled 1%) and in 99% of the time over iron, the Sovereign will report a Non-ferrous item in close proximity with that of a iron target and read it true every time. It does it like this: it looks for the ground signal, then looks for the iron signal and then it looks for the Non-ferrous signal. If it sees the ground signal and no iron or Non-ferrous signal it reports nothing. If it sees the ground signal and an iron signal and no Non-ferrous signal it reports only the iron signal as a negative target "low gritty sound" through threshold. If it sees the ground signal, no iron and a Non-ferrous signal, it will report the Non-ferrous signal based on your discrimination setting.
Now if it sees the ground signal and a iron signal it will look for a Non ferrous signal before reporting the iron signal if it sees the Non-ferrous signal with the iron signal it breaks out the Non-ferrous signal and reports the target based on your discrimination setting. This is called Iron Mask and when you see it at work you will never, and let me repeat that you will never go back to a XLT or CZ. I have had customers completely search a yard with the XLT, forward backwards and diagonally, and get everything they could get out of the yard, then take the Sovereign into the same yard and recover more targets. a lot of the times the target is close proximity to a nail or other iron target.

A dealer for Fisher, (and I mean a Fisher Dealer and Die Hard Fisher User) picks up a Sovereign XS in a field that was known to be littered with nails and other iron trash and hunted the field marking targets and how they read on a Sun Ray meter. They then came back and traded it for the CZ and again hunted the same field this time the CZ found more targets and ID them as good targets. It could not see one of the targets that the Sovereign did. Then this dealer went out and dug up all the items, all the items that the Sovereign read coins it ended up being a coin and in addition no iron was ID as good targets. The CZ could not make the same claim, it did not recover any more coins, but a whole lot more iron trash that read good. The target that the Sovereign ended taking the day on that the CZ did not ID was a 1903 Silver Canada nickel which is smaller than a US dime. It was recovered at a depth of 10" I rest my case.

OH! That Fisher dealer now carries a Sovereign XS as hunt unit at old ghost towns and undisturbed ground.

I could go on the Sovereign is not for everyone but it sure can produce for those that take the time to master it. I suggest you pick up a Tips for Success Book and read it cover to cover before you buy the unit it will give a little more insight plus if you end up buying a Sovereign it will help you through the rough points.

 

[scoper]

 

[Critterhunter]

That's one of the best descriptions of how Iron Mask works that I have ever read. Thanks for posting that.

 

[scoper]

It would be interesting to see how many sovereign users believe their machine is 99% accurate at identifying a non ferous target located next to a piece of iron with a true reading every time.I love my sovereign and believe it to be one of the best detectors available today but i think there has to be a line drawn between reality and fantasy.Does this guy know what he is talking about?......how can the sov see a single target 17 times??To do this it would have to put down all 17 frequencies at once and this just does'nt happen.I would like to see minelab verify these comments......i don't think even NASA could build a machine like the one mr Arnold is describing.

 

[Critterhunter]

That article gives the most informative description of Iron Mask I've seen to date. It confirms what I've been saying for a long time. Iron Mask tries it's best to reveal a non-ferrous target mixed in with iron. It's not like a detector that is say set up to discriminate out iron, which will most of the time also reject the non-ferrous target as well. Once again, thanks for posting that.

 

[scoper]

It does do it's best to seperate a non ferrous item from a ferrous one.....but it certainly is'nt 99% accurate is it.It depends on many factors such as the size of the ferrous object compared to the non ferrous item and if the ferrous item is at the same depth,shallower or deeper than the non ferrous object.The sovereign WILL miss targets in close proximity to iron in certain situations.....to claim 99% accuracy in this senario is just 100% inaccurate.

 

[Neil]

That article gives the most informative description of Iron Mask I've seen to date. It confirms what I've been saying for a long time. Iron Mask tries it's best to reveal a non-ferrous target mixed in with iron. It's not like a detector that is say set up to discriminate out iron, which will most of the time also reject the non-ferrous target as well. Once again, thanks for posting that.

It doesnt confirm anything and thats the problem with your reasoning. Its based on who you dont know, posting things you dont know, and sadly newbies who read that kinda garbage think it could be the truth.
That guy might never have even held a sovereign in his hands and just posted what he read. What in the world would incline you to believe that he knows what he is talking about?

 

[scoper]

Hi Neil,that's what i worry about.....newbies buying a machine on the strength of an article, that like you say, is pure garbage.....hence why i posted two laughing smileys after i had read it.I think we all know how good the sovereign is....it's one of the best in certain situations but in areas of high iron trash there are better machines on the market.Like you i believe the author of the article has'nt really got a full understanding of what he is talking about...it seems to me he just has an interest in making sure a lot of them are sold......is he a dealer???

 

[Critterhunter]

That article gives the most informative description of Iron Mask I've seen to date. It confirms what I've been saying for a long time. Iron Mask tries it's best to reveal a non-ferrous target mixed in with iron. It's not like a detector that is say set up to discriminate out iron, which will most of the time also reject the non-ferrous target as well. Once again, thanks for posting that.

It doesnt confirm anything and thats the problem with your reasoning. Its based on who you dont know, posting things you dont know, and sadly newbies who read that kinda garbage think it could be the truth.
That guy might never have even held a sovereign in his hands and just posted what he read. What in the world would incline you to believe that he knows what he is talking about?

Ah, but I do know something is going on with Iron Mask...I know based on experience from using this and other machines. No machine I have ever owned has got me coins mixed in with iron as much as the Sovereign. I have read about others that hold that same opinion. There has to be a reason behind that, and that reason is because Iron Mask is doing SOMETHING to try to unmask non-ferrous targets mixed with iron.

His description seems perfectly logical to me, and is as well reasoned as anything I've read thus far as to why Iron Mask seems to reveal coins mixed with iron better than any machine I've ever used. All I know is Iron Mask works, and the above reasoning seems as good as any as to why. The details behind and reasons why it works aren't as important as the fact that it does work. That description seems to be the best shot I've read thus far towards explaining it.

By the way, I could have accused you of posting "garbage" many times in the past as well, but I don't try to make differences of opinion personal. Why don't you try to do the same. Some people just can't seem to tolerate opinions that don't agree with theirs and have to resort to name calling to defend that position. If you don't feel Iron Mask does a better job than normal iron rejection on other machines in trying to unmask targets mixed with it then fine, that's your opinion. It shouldn't be a shock to you that others may have had different experiences and so hold very different opinions than yours. My experience, and thus opinion, differs. If you can't deal with that without insulting people then I'm sorry to hear that, because you are going to run into MANY situations in life where people hold a different view than you. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't give you an excuse to attack their character.

To any newbies reading this thread...In my opinion Iron Mask has some unique ability to reveal non-ferrous targets mixed with iron. That's based on having owned or used many machines over many years. As you can see, others hold a different opinion. You have to decide which of our opinions to believe, and hopefuly you won't base that belief on who does a better job of name calling.

 

[scoper]

Hi Critterhunter....i don't think he was directly accusing you of talking garbage...i think he was refering to certain points in the article.I'm sure you would not bring yourself to tell a newbie that the sov will provide them with 99% accuracy on a good target that was close to iron would you??This statement is pure fantasy.Would any other sovereign user on this forum confirm that level of accuracy from their sov??

 

[Critterhunter]

Yes, I see his "garbage" remark was pointed at that article. My mistake, and so I would like to apologize. It still would be nice to hear differences of opinion without having to use such terms to try to disqualify a different point of view.

I wouldn't argue the Sovereign or any other machine does anything with 99% accuracy. I think you guys are taking his words too literally. Kind'a like somebody saying they are 110% sure of something when there is no such thing. I believe he was just trying to get across the point that it's very good at doing what it does. I believe he does an excellent job of offering a theory as to why it is so good at unmasking targets mixed with iron. I remember reading similar explainations in the past which is one of the reasons I was attracted to the Sovereign.

As for using all 17 frequencies, I don't think there has ever been a clear explaination as to how FBS or BBS machines process the signal being generated. Maybe somebody in the Explorer or Etrac forum has posted information on that but I haven't seen it.

 

[Critterhunter]

I did a little digging through the GT's owners manual online at Minelab's website and found a few things to post. First, Minelab states that...

"the Sovereign GT is designed to locate and accurately identify valuable targets in variable ground and high trash areas."

They go on to say concerning Iron Mask... "A fundamental problem for most conventional detectors is the inability to recognize a valuable target when it is located near a ferrous item. This is a particular problem in areas heavily littered with trash, which is common on old relic sites. The Sovereign GT, using Iron Mask / On is particularly good at making the distinction between a non-ferrous target and iron trash, recognizing the non-ferrous target and providing an audio signal. With Iron Mask / On, the search depth is also a little greater and non-ferrous targets may be located more reliably amongst ferrous trash. However, with Iron Mask /On, the detector may give the occasional "beep" on large ferrous targets and the threshold may not be quite as stable. For this reason, beginners may prefer to detect with Iron Mask / Off. Also, when discriminating in mineralised soil, Iron Mask / Off may be the preferred mode."

Sure sounds to me like they are implying that Iron Mask ON gives the machine more ability to recognize non-ferrous targets among iron. Why even provide a switch to turn on Iron Mask if it doesn't really do anything.

 

[scoper]

Hi Critterhunter,i don't think anybody ever said that the iron mask switch did nothing....but all it really does is expand the iron recognition range of the discrim.For example,if i take my basic c-scope single frequency detector and discrim out my 3"rusty test nail so there is absolutely no signal at all,the machine will find it difficult to locate one of my small hammered coins next to the nail when i sweep my coil over both targets.This is about where the sovereigns discrim setting is at "0" on the discrim knob.However,when i reduce the discrim on my c-scope just enough to get the slightest blip on the nail,the machine will quite easily pick up the hammered coin.This is in effect what happens when you switch the iron mask switch to on....it reduces the discrim to help good targets break through over the iron.This is why in the manual it says with iron mask on you may get the occasional beep over iron....it's because there is slightly less discrim.It also explains why you may get slightly more depth like it says in the manual....this happens when you reduce discrim.The manual also states that the threshold may be less stable with iron mask on and not so good in mineralised ground....here again these factors can be caused by using less discrim which in effect is what the iron mask switch does.When i repeat the nail test with the sovereign i still can't pick up the hammered coin even with iron mask on because it is not lowering the discrim enough for the low conductivity hammered to break through.....even with iron mask on the rusty nail will still not produce even the slightest beep.This is why in certain difficult conditions the sovereign is outperformed by high sensitivity fast reacting machines and why not many people use them over here for searching ancient iron littered sites.The sovereigns iron rejection is just too high over here,even with the iron mask on, which is why it would be better to have a full range discrim knob from small iron upwards rarther than a single switch which gives very limited control.I think that minelab have tried to be slightly too clever with the sovereign by providing the machine with the ability to ignore most ferous objects while still trying to provide it with the ability to find non ferous objects in amongst iron as well.To a certain extent they have succeeded because higher conductive coins can be found quite effectively in high iron trash areas....but when it comes to low conductive small hammered and roman coins in iron it's out of it's depth.If minelab added the full range discrim control and a switch for low/high recovery it would be even more popular than it is now over here in th u.k....maybe these will be the next features if minelab decide to update the sovereign.

 

[JimmyCT]

Hi Scoper,

I have been reading this post from the very beginning and I apologize for "breaking" into the conversation but... Scoper, thank you very much for your input and explanation.You really laid this out in "laymen's terms." I am still very new with the Sov GT and love the machine....but this my friend cleared things up for me. Now I have a much clearer understanding of the inner workings of the Sov GT. - Jim



Thanks again -

Hi Critterhunter,i don't think anybody ever said that the iron mask switch did nothing....but all it really does is expand the iron recognition range of the discrim.For example,if i take my basic c-scope single frequency detector and discrim out my 3"rusty test nail so there is absolutely no signal at all,the machine will find it difficult to locate one of my small hammered coins next to the nail when i sweep my coil over both targets.This is about where the sovereigns discrim setting is at "0" on the discrim knob.However,when i reduce the discrim on my c-scope just enough to get the slightest blip on the nail,the machine will quite easily pick up the hammered coin.This is in effect what happens when you switch the iron mask switch to on....it reduces the discrim to help good targets break through over the iron.This is why in the manual it says with iron mask on you may get the occasional beep over iron....it's because there is slightly less discrim.It also explains why you may get slightly more depth like it says in the manual....this happens when you reduce discrim.The manual also states that the threshold may be less stable with iron mask on and not so good in mineralised ground....here again these factors can be caused by using less discrim which in effect is what the iron mask switch does.When i repeat the nail test with the sovereign i still can't pick up the hammered coin even with iron mask on because it is not lowering the discrim enough for the low conductivity hammered to break through.....even with iron mask on the rusty nail will still not produce even the slightest beep.This is why in certain difficult conditions the sovereign is outperformed by high sensitivity fast reacting machines and why not many people use them over here for searching ancient iron littered sites.The sovereigns iron rejection is just too high over here,even with the iron mask on, which is why it would be better to have a full range discrim knob from small iron upwards rarther than a single switch which gives very limited control.I think that minelab have tried to be slightly too clever with the sovereign by providing the machine with the ability to ignore most ferous objects while still trying to provide it with the ability to find non ferous objects in amongst iron as well.To a certain extent they have succeeded because higher conductive coins can be found quite effectively in high iron trash areas....but when it comes to low conductive small hammered and roman coins in iron it's out of it's depth.If minelab added the full range discrim control and a switch for low/high recovery it would be even more popular than it is now over here in th u.k....maybe these will be the next features if minelab decide to update the sovereign.

 

[Rick(ND)]

All the Sovereigns since the XS have the iron mask on all the time, but to make it easier for those new to the Sovereign they put a switch on the GT to turn off the iron mask making the detector run smoother and not so many false signals so those new to the Sovereign will be able to learn it faster. This also comes in handy for those that clad hunt and those that use a GT for competition hunting as you can swing the coil faster. I feel those that want the deeper coins and those that like to hunt the worked to death area we only run it with iron mask on as we want the coins that other detectors miss that is close to iron and deeper.

Rick

 

[JimmyCT]

Thank you Rick for posting and I hope all is well with you.

If it warms up like the weatherman said it would, I am going outside and mess around with the settings and see just how much faster I can swing the coil looking for clad. I also love finding those deeper (or not so deep ) coins mixed in with iron like you mention, "in worked-to-death areas." In my first season with the sov GT, I made some very nice coin discoveries in these very places. Then investing into the 8" tornado expanded these iron infested areas for me to pull out even more nice coins.
Take care - Jim

All the Sovereigns since the XS have the iron mask on all the time, but to make it easier for those new to the Sovereign they put a switch on the GT to turn off the iron mask making the detector run smoother and not so many false signals so those new to the Sovereign will be able to learn it faster. This also comes in handy for those that clad hunt and those that use a GT for competition hunting as you can swing the coil faster. I feel those that want the deeper coins and those that like to hunt the worked to death area we only run it with iron mask on as we want the coins that other detectors miss that is close to iron and deeper.

Rick

 

[Critterhunter]

I understand what you are saying but perhaps I'm not explaining my point as clearly as I should. I've owned many machines over the years and haven't used one that has better ability at finding coins mixed in iron than I have with my Sovereign. For example, one of my favorite machines was a QXT Pro. It has a fast recovery speed and I would also always hunt with nothing (including iron) discriminated out. Instead I would assign high tones to the various targets I was interested in. A low tone for iron, and a high tone for coins for example. With no discrimination and the tones set up this way I would listen for a high tone mixed in with the lows. This made it a very good machine for finding coins laying nearby trash. Yet I still didn't dig as many coins laying with iron in the same hole as I do with the Sovereign. In my opinion there is something more going on with Iron Mask than just a basic changing of how much iron discrimination there is.

 

[Critterhunter]

Something is going on. My guess is what he said in that article, that the Sovereign is looking at the signal and breaking apart any non-ferrous signals that are mixed in with ferrous (iron).

 

[Neil]

Hi Critterhunter,i don't think anybody ever said that the iron mask switch did nothing....but all it really does is expand the iron recognition range of the discrim.For example,if i take my basic c-scope single frequency detector and discrim out my 3"rusty test nail so there is absolutely no signal at all,the machine will find it difficult to locate one of my small hammered coins next to the nail when i sweep my coil over both targets.This is about where the sovereigns discrim setting is at "0" on the discrim knob.However,when i reduce the discrim on my c-scope just enough to get the slightest blip on the nail,the machine will quite easily pick up the hammered coin.This is in effect what happens when you switch the iron mask switch to on....it reduces the discrim to help good targets break through over the iron.This is why in the manual it says with iron mask on you may get the occasional beep over iron....it's because there is slightly less discrim.It also explains why you may get slightly more depth like it says in the manual....this happens when you reduce discrim.The manual also states that the threshold may be less stable with iron mask on and not so good in mineralised ground....here again these factors can be caused by using less discrim which in effect is what the iron mask switch does.When i repeat the nail test with the sovereign i still can't pick up the hammered coin even with iron mask on because it is not lowering the discrim enough for the low conductivity hammered to break through.....even with iron mask on the rusty nail will still not produce even the slightest beep.This is why in certain difficult conditions the sovereign is outperformed by high sensitivity fast reacting machines and why not many people use them over here for searching ancient iron littered sites.The sovereigns iron rejection is just too high over here,even with the iron mask on, which is why it would be better to have a full range discrim knob from small iron upwards rarther than a single switch which gives very limited control.I think that minelab have tried to be slightly too clever with the sovereign by providing the machine with the ability to ignore most ferous objects while still trying to provide it with the ability to find non ferous objects in amongst iron as well.To a certain extent they have succeeded because higher conductive coins can be found quite effectively in high iron trash areas....but when it comes to low conductive small hammered and roman coins in iron it's out of it's depth.If minelab added the full range discrim control and a switch for low/high recovery it would be even more popular than it is now over here in th u.k....maybe these will be the next features if minelab decide to update the sovereign.

scoper, per minelabs definition, iron mask is simply ferrous discrimination and yes as you stated its at a certain set point on the Sov and non adjustable. Ive brought this up before, that minelab expanded on this feature with the Explorers and now the Etrac and in fact have renamed it to quick mask on the Etrac. Being able to adjust it makes a world of difference in some locations but especially those with higher amounts of iron. I wish they would have made it adjustable on the Sov but they didnt. Not much has changed on the Sov internally since its inception. The GT model is simply a culmination of all the Sov features over the years, with the exception of the single tone/multi tone toggle found on some of the earlier sovs.
Now if you turn the iron mask off, you can see the sov still rejects alot of small iron right at 0 disc, there is not alot of low end range on the sovereign. Sort of like the older Tesoros if your familiar with those? Tesoro had the 120 disc on those and then they went to the 180 disc which expanded the low end range and the results are masking is not so pronounced. The 180 discs are noiser and you get more falses but your not masking as much by such heavy iron disc.
Thanks for your input!
By the way there is a page on the minelab website that explains alot of this.