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Xterra 505 IDs in dirt at depth

S505

New member
I did some tests last night in dirt and found that nearly all my deep targets (>7in) gave - IDs like one would expect with iron. The targets included gold rings which started out as higher readings at 4 inches but progressively dropped as depth increased. This is with the MF 9 inch concentric coil. Medium size mens 10K class ring started at ~18 at 4 in and dropped to -9 at 9 inches. This ring air tests at 24 solid. Every target dropped significantly in ID as depth increased, including clad. Modifying ground balance and sensitivity had no impact on the ID shift. 1910 wheat was only reliably detected at 5-6 inches. Are these results normal? I see where Gambler13 had similar results with a 705. Was this ever resolved or just the way it is?

Thank you, S505
 
If it is under warranty I would contact Minelab. I did send mine in but also had a problem with the pp locking on. Detector was gone 10 days. The repair order stated they replaced the PP button but no mention of anything else but detector does give better ID's. Could be your machine or the coil.
 
I get a 48 reading on dimes buried at seven to nine inches and no audible iron indication being present. Also audible signal is good swinging one or two different ways, yet other directional swings produce a signal i would consider junk. Not wanting to get into the usual details all of us experience in the field, the id of 48 is frustrating, especially digging 48's and the digging never ends (unless one wants to dig to China). Hard to tell if one has a coin or similar sized good item verses a ghost chase. I have an X-terra 70. My brother has a 50. His also maxes out the id on a deep coin. Must be the way the electronics are designed. I know what I'm doing in the spring???!!
 
I dig up aussie pennies and silvers up to 9 inches deep and the ID's I get are consistent with air testing the same coins.

I crank up the sensitivity to about 28 sometimes and get the real deep coins then. Have a look at some of my videos www.youtube.com/supersnoopy36

Cheers
snoop
 
I am still hoping there may be a flaw in my tests or detector settings rather than a problem with my detector. Those of you with test gardens can probably give more insight into the following thoughts/observations on the detector settings and their effects. It seems to me that of the settings available, noise cancel, volume, and threshold only effect what you hear. They do not effect the actual performance of the detector. Regardless of these settings, the detector is able to detect a given target at the same depth and IDs the target the same. My limited experience is that all metal and discrimination patterns also do not affect the ID or depth to any significant amount (I suspect <1 inch if at all). That leaves ground balance and sensitivity. The results I got were after ground balancing but varying ground balance to the extremes had no noticeable impact on the ID behavior or depth indicators. My thought is that ground balance should have zero impact on ID but will have a small impact on depth (both the depth the detector is capable of and the accuracy of the detector's depth feedback). Sensitivity did impact both but only by causing the ID to be erratic at high settings (varying sensitivity did not cause a target to give a different stable ID). Sensitivity did what I expected -it varied the depth the detector would sound off on a target. At high settings on shallow (4 inch) targets where the ID was erratic, the depth was also overestimated but this was corrected with lower sensitivity. In summary, none of the detector's settings (with the exception of too much sensitivity) should impact the ID the detector gives. If you have a test garden, I am interested in your observations of the above settings and their impact on your detector. Let me know what your target was and its depth and how varying the settings impacted your detector's feedback.

I am questioning my testing method since I do not have a test garden in the ground. These tests are done in a large container of soil. The results are reproducible whether the container is in the garage or moved outside, so outside interference from near metal objects (ie, rebar in the floor) should not be the cause. I have sunk a PVC tube (#1) at an angle (~45 degrees) from the top to the bottom of the container and have another PVC tube (#2) with the bottom taped which slides inside #1. I drop a target into tube #2, and vary how far it slides down tube #1. I have calibrated tube #2 to reflect vertical depth from the soil's surface. Set up in this manner the soil density is not uniform due to the PVC tubes' volume but I do not see how this should matter.

My results with a nickel at 4 inches = +3 to -3 , at 5 inches = -6, at 6 inches = -6, at 7 inches = -9. At all depths from 4 to 7 inches the detector gave 4 arrows depth on the nickel. On average, my targets iD's dropped one notch (ID of 3 units per notch on the 505) for each inch of depth (I only looked at 4-9 inches and most targets became undetectable around 7 inches). Targets included Kennedy half, quarter, foil, pull tab (newer style), zinc penny, wheat penny, 1847 large penny, nickle, newer 1$ coin, 7mm REM Mag. brass shell casing, jean rivet, thin wedding band, med. mens 10K class ring, and #8 framing nail. The only targets which did not drop in ID significantly were the wheat which was 27 at 4 inches and all over the place deeper, the small foil which was -6 to -9 at 4 inches and undetectable deeper, and the nail (45 degree angle in tube) which was -6 at 4 inches and -9 at 9 inches ( you can't look much more like steel than a nail does regardless of depth).

My testing method may be to blame for these results, but I do not see how the results can be explained. All input will be appreciated.

Thanks in advance, S505
 
My test garden is over 20 years old. It contains coins and jewelry of all sorts. Both old and newer. Well, it was new when it was buried 20+ years ago. On targets without adjacent metal objects, my numbers do not bounce around on any of my X-TERRAs, as you indicate yours do. With that said, I can easily hit a quarter at 8 inches, with consistent TID on all of my X-TERRAs, using any of the coils larger than 6 inch. On the 6 inch coils, the depth is not as great, but TID is consistent throughout. Target ID on any detector is limited by certain depths as the software driving the TID is based on coin sized targets in "average" ground conditions.

A couple of your points I differ with...... Noise Cancel, Ground Balance, Volume, Threshold and Sensitivity all have an impact on how a detector reacts to a given target. Choosing the proper Noise Cancel Channel will allow your detector to operate with a minimal amount of outside interference. Interference can (and will) skew any TID. Ground Balance is the most basic type of discrimination in that it discriminates the effects of the mineralization of the ground. If you're putting your targets in PVC and have broken the ground matrix, all bets are off. Volume, Threshold and Sensitivity all work hand in hand to provide the user with the most stable audio tone, while achieving maximum depth of detection. Threshold does have an impact on whether or not a detector will detect a given target. A couple years back, my brother and I were both using our X-TERRA 70s with the 6-inch DD coils. I found a silver US 3-cent piece providing a TID of 24. I tossed it on the ground for him to hear, and he couldn't detect it. I had my Threshold set at 4 or 5 and his was at 14. All other settings were the same. He lowered his Threshold and it hit just fine.

Reference pages 34 and 35 in the 705 manual for more info on having a proper Threshold setting. (electronic version available in the FAQFAQ section). HH Randy
 
Thank you Digger. It sounds like your Xterras are all working as expected and should produce some good data. It is possible for you to visit your garden and vary your settings incorrectly on purpose and report your results (Xterra depth and ID feedback)? Specifically, I am interested in how incorrect settings for ground balance and noise cancel impact the Xterra's performance. I was under the impression that ground balance would have little to no effect on reported numerical IDs and depth. If it does, about how much deviation from the norm could one introduce? Granted, if your soil is ideal and your garden is subject to no electrical interference , answering my questions with data will probably not be possible for you but maybe someone else could. I really thought ground balance served to eliminate false (ghost) signals and noise cancel just nulled out electrical static pops and cracks in the sounds, both essentially just to quiet the thing down. I am not yet convinced that volume and threshold have an impact on how the Xterra's detect a given target's ID and depth in any way other than sound (it seems the ID and depth reported on the screen should remain unchanged regardless of these settings). The way I understand threshold is that it is an offset to allow each user to tweak the detector to his/her own threshold of audibility. This brings the quiet sounds within each person's audible range without amping up the noise at the same time. Set correctly, the signal/noise ratio is maximized for the quiet sounds. Set too high and the threshold tone becomes noise, signal/noise is reduced, and at some point the signal cannot be differentiated from the noise. If this is correct, under your brother's settings the Xterra would have given a visual ID on the target, but the audible signal was swamped by the noise for his ears.

I am leaning toward my test environment as being the source of my strange results and am relieved that only one other poster has reported similar negative IDs. I intend on redoing these tests the hard way and burying each target one at a time at different depths. If I have to I will vary the soil, change locations, etc to identify the conditions necessary to reproduce these results. I will report what I find here as I think it will foster a much greater understanding of the detector. I did reset to factory defaults but have not had a chance to see if there was any impact.

Thank you, S505


P.S. I did get to do some detecting and digging today. I used the detector to locate my septic tank by the rebar loops on the lid and dug a HUGE hole. Great time
 
Ground balance can and will have a great impact on depth of detection. Ground balance is the most simple form of discrimination in that you are making an effort to discriminate out the effects of the minerals in the ground. VLF detectors are capable of detecting targets much deeper than they can accurately identify the target's non-ferrous properties. However, depending on the size of coil you were using, TID should be fairly accurate to far more than 4 inches. Anything over 7 or 8 will likely be sketchy.


As you can see, I am unable to make any "in the field" comparisons at this time........

[attachment 185383 DSCF5114-Copy.JPG]


But I'll go back through some of the notes I took during the time I Field Tested the X-TERRA, and let you know if I come across anything. HH Randy
 
Since I had some dirt loosened up around the septic, I decided to look at my nickel and quarter in more realistic conditions. I laid these two flat on fresh dirt and piled up more on top to about 5 inches, packed it down good with my shovel. Ground balanced at 9, sensitivity at 15. Nickel rang a repeatable -6 to -9 , 4 depth icons. Quarter was not so bad at 36, 2-3 depth icons. Prior to adding dirt on top, laying flat, quarter was 42 and nickel was 12. Varying all settings including ground balance, noise cancel , etc up and down the range of adjustment did nothing to these IDs of 36 and -6 to -9 when buried. I now believe I have a problem with the detector or coil since this was reproducible in two very different environments. I will let you know how this is resolved.

Thank you, S505
 
When I have put coins in loos dirt I do not get good ids. When then coin has been ther for a while I get good ids.
 
I'd agree..... if you are getting negative TID numbers on nickels, something isn't right. Since the TID seems to be accurate and consistent on "air tests", it makes me wonder if the GB adjustment is actually changing anything? Let us know what you find out. HH Randy
 
I called Minelab in Chicago and the tech immediately said that I should never see ferrous (negative) IDs with a non-ferrous target. He said it was very odd and that he had never heard of it but he was going to contact Kevin Hoagland and ask if he had ever seen it. The unit will be sent in next week for service. I did disconnect/reconnect the coil thinking maybe there was a bad connection but the negative IDs remained with the nickel when a few inches deep. Outside this afternoon, increasing ground balance way up did cause phantom signals 36 to 48, so GB had an effect but who knows if it is doing what it should. I've had the detector ~4 months and looking back, I don't remember getting any good non-ferrous hits at any real depth so this may have been occurring since I got it. The unit was already assembled at the dealer as a display model when purchased so it may already have a history. The good thing is, I haven't had to dig very deep holes and I don't need any new places to hunt. I can rehunt everywhere I've been. The bummer is, any amount of experience I have gained may be of marginal benefit.

S505
 
Since my Xterra is temporarily out of commission I decided I could fall back on my Tracker IV. So I did the same depth tests with it that I did with the Xterra 505-exact same targets, same dirt etc-no variables other than the detector. Tracker IV was 2-3 inches shallower on quarters , ~3 inches shallower on nickles and 4 inches shallower on two gold rings. I only did tests from 4 to 9 inches in depth. I could not get many good signals on coins below 4 inches with the Tracker. I have dug alot of coins in the top 3-4 inches of soil with the Tracker but I have some sites expected to produce much deeper and older coins. The Tracker will not do it for me in my conditions.

S505
 
I get solid -8 iron target id on coins 4"+ in disc and all metal. I mainly hunt in prospecting mode because obviously the target id isn't going to help me much. The ground is heavily mineralized where I live though.. Lots of black sand.
 
I noticed that you said you had GB of 9 and Sens. of 15. I would bet that if you bumped the Sens. up to 24 - 30 and if it is still stable that your TID's will be more accurate. I find that if I have backed off the Sens. and get a target that is iffy and deep that running Sens. up to max level still stable will give a better TID.. I normally run my Sens. 24 or above but sometimes conditions will force you to run it lower. Try it and let us know if that helps the numbers before you send it off. I have a X-70 so I don't know if you have tracking GB or not, but if you do, then use it also as it is switched off in pinpoint mode anyway.
 
With my X-terra 70 I have the same problem with ID shift at depth, down into the iron range. But, that happens at the 8 to 9 inch depth in bad dirt with my machine.
 
The 505's maximum sensitivity is 20 and it does not have tracking ground balance. I do not remember how I did the actual test outside but I usually run the sensitivity as high as I can without getting a lot of noise- I assume I did the same then. Ramping the sensitivity up and down did not have any effect on the odd IDs. I expect the IDs to fall apart at the limits of the detector but 4 inches is not a depth where I expect coin IDs to lose accuracy. Most of the coins with expected target IDs of 30+ dropped at close to a linear rate until they became undetectable around 7 inches. Nickles and gold targets dropped much quicker (steeper negative slope) until undetectable or at the lower range of my test (9 inches). I do not think this is normal and neither does Minelab. I would not be surprised if this was as simple as a poor connection / short on one of the pins where the coil plugs into the control box. I do want to stress that this unit was purchased already assembled by the dealer. The problem (if there really turns out to be one) may have originated there-not from the factory. I do wish it would have been sealed in the box when I got it.

S505
 
I agree it should not id that poorly at 4" and if I were you I would either take it back where you got it or send it to Minelab. I did not realize that the 505 sensitivity only went to 20 so 15 is approximately like 22-23 on my 70 so not as low as I thought. My 70 id's targets pretty good to around 8" then gets iffy depending on soil. In beach sand I have found quarters over 12". Anyway I would get it replaced/repaired. If you get it working right I am sure you will be happy.
Good Luck!

Dave
 
After seeing how the Tracker IV did on depth, I am happy with the Xterra as is. If it comes back from Minelab with better IDs - thats a bonus.

S505
 
I truly envy you guys to be getting the kind of depth you are with your XT's. In two yrs. I have yet to find a single coin over 6 1/2" in my ground, no matter what size coil is being used and that is out of a total of 1500 coins dug (only got out half as much last year). They I.D. and sound just fine, but there is never any real depth. Maybe I need to send my XT-70 in for a retuning or else it is my ground that is killing my depth...
 
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