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Xterra notches, ground balance, noise cancel, data sampling and phase shift

S505

New member
Does the Xterra's discrimination scale represent a phase shift of one period? This would explain the "wrap around" from iron.

Does each notch represent the same absolute phase shift or is the phase shift divided unequally across the notches?

Does ground balancing subtract the phase shift due to the soil?

Does increasing the distance a target is from the coil increase phase shift? This would explain target IDs dropping as depth increased.

Does noise cancel smooth the data? Change the data sampling rate? What is the difference between the noise cancel channels?

Technical answers to the above would help wipe the snake oil off my 505.

Thank you in advance to anyone who can answer these questions. I do like this detector. Very capable and very easy to use.

S505
 
Notch segments are basically discrimination filters. The filters are not absolute. Therefore the phase shift of each of the X-TERRA notch segments is not equal. In my opinion, the highest non-ferrous notch is "narrower" than the others, allowing us to reduce the wrap around effect by rejecting that upper non-ferrous notch and not adversely affect the detection of US coins. I also believe the -9 notch of the 50 and 505 are "wider" than the most negative notches of the 30, 305, 70 and 705 (that only go to -8 ). This should also allow 50 and 505 user's to reduce the effects of wrap around signals by rejecting the -9 notch segment.

Mineralization creates an increase in the X components at a different ratio than the R component. Increasing the distance between the target will cause a change of TID. However it is directly due to the X to R component ratio. This could make it indirectly related to the phase shift, but not necessarily.

Noise cancel is functionality that automatically shifts the detectors operational frequency to reduce the effects of enviornmental noise. I do not know what the actual frequency shift is, between channels.


I'll do some more thinking about your questions. But in the meantime, you might find many of your questions answered at http://www.minelab.com/__files/f/11043/METAL%20DETECTOR%20BASICS%20AND%20THEORY.pdf

Here is an example:
2.3 Single frequency sine-waves (VLF).
The resistive component R of a fi rst order time constant non-ferrous metal target with
 
Thank you, Digger. I have previously read Candy's papers and I believe they explain ferrous/nonferrous problems as they relate to the region -3 to 3 (on the 505) but not -9 to 48 wrapping. The wrapping seems better explained by a phase shift that approaches one period. A signal with an extremely long phase shift of one period will be indistinguishable from a signal with no phase shift and noise in the signal could easily make it look like a very short shift. If the Xterra's scale does not approach a one period phase shift, this theory goes out the window.

In my opinion, the ferrous notch widths vary from wide to narrow as one moves from the 305 to 705, with the 505 intermediate. The -9 label on the 505's lowest notch is completely independent of the notch's width. It is an arbitrary number divisable by three (the number of ferrous notches on the 505). I believe the range of the discrimination scale of all three detectors is identical, regardless of the numeric designations (-4 to 44, -9 to 48, -8 to 4:geek:. Otherwise, the 305 would be a nice quiet machine since the nuts, nails,and other trash that ring at -6 and lower on the 505 and 705 would not be detected (the 305 only goes to -4). In reality, they are all detected on the 305 but as -4.

Within a given detector, I do question if the notch widths vary across the range. For example, if coins tend to vary considerably from one another in their detected signal with little trash in the same range, the notches in the coin region could be wider with no apparent loss in the detector's performance. However, in the pull tab region it may be beneficial for each notch to be narrower. This might improve discrimination of pull tabs from gold, nickels, etc. Again, the relative width of each notch on one detector does not have to be related to its numeric label. If the notches are narrower in one region, one also might expect signals to bounce around more in that region while signals in another lock on better. Target IDs may also appear to vary more if they fell in the range of narrower notches. IDs on my 505 vary much more on targets in the range from 24 and lower than those 45 to 30.

Noise cancel and frequency: I thought the operating frequency of the detector depended on the coil. I know if a signal is noisy one can apply a filter of decreasing frequency to remove the noise and thought maybe this is what noise cancel is actually doing. I have never seen the need for changing noise cancel as it seemed to do nothing.


The e book you are working on with Minelab should be a big benefit.



S505
 
YOU NAILED IT RANDY..................I THINK:surprised: Oh my:clapping: HH TomB
 
Each model of X-TERRA has the discrimination capabilites to categorize targets according to the phase shift induced by target properties. For the sake of discussion, let's refer to the most ferrous target providing the lowest display number. And the most non-ferrous target as having the highest display number. And instead of constantly referencing phase shift, I'll use the words ferrous/non-ferrous. When you consider the 305 having "4-digit" notch segments, the 505 having "3-digit" notch segments and the 705 having "2-digit" notch segments, it is obvious the width of the notches vary from "wide" to "more narrow" when comparing the three models. So even though the ferrous/non-ferrous properties of a target remain constant, each detector will categorize that target into a "notch" that can be represented by a different number than the other two. As example, if I found an IH penny with my 705 that gave a consistent TID of 34, what number would the 305 or 505 provide? Since 34 is not divisible by either 3 (representing 3-digit notch segments of the 505) or divisible by 4 (representing the 4-digit notch segments of the 305), that IH penny cannot give a TID of 34 on those two models. The TID for each model will be assigned to the notch segment that includes those specific ferrous/non-ferrous properties. In the case of the 505, I'd be willing to bet that it would provide a TID of 33. I say that because dropping down from 34 to 33 is only one increment. For it to jump to a 36 (the next available notch segment on the 505), it would have to jump up two increments. In the case of the 303, it could go either way. It might drop down two increments to a 32, or go up two increments to a 36. So then the question becomes..... what if the actual TID of that IH cent was just on the low side of 35? The reason it came in on the 705 as a 34 is because the 705 does not have a notch segment number 35. Since there is no 35 on any of the three models of X-TERRAs, again, it will display a number relating to the notch segment that most closely identifies with it's ferrous/non-ferrous properties. In the case of the 705, it went to a TID of 34 even though the actual value was on the low side of 35. Being on the low side of 35 is still closer to 34 than it would be to 36. (only even numbered options on the 705) Not to make it more confusing, but what if that same IH cent that came in as a 34 on the 705 actually had the ferrous/non-ferrous properties that were determined to be just barely above a 33? It would still read a 34 on the 705 because 34 is closer to the "high side" of 33 than 32 is. And it would read a 33 on the 505 because that is also the most closely related notch segment available, based on the targets ferrous/non-ferrous properties. And, it will read a 32 on the 305 because, being on the high side of 33, its property values are "closer" to 32 than 36. And remember, on the 305, there are no other notch segment choices between 32 and 36.

As to maximum and minimum........I believe that the most conductive target will TID with the highest number available on each detector. And I believe that the most ferrous target will TID with the lowest ferrous number of each detector. In comparing all three models in the All Metal mode, I've always found that a target reading -9 on the 505 will read -8 on the 705 and will read -4 on the 305 . But that does not mean that all three models have the same "ferrous/non-ferrous" properties programmed into their upper or lower notch assignments. In other words, if the 305 indicates a ferrous value of -4, it isn't necessarily going to be a -9 on the 505 or a -8 on the 705. As we've discussed, the 4-digit notch segments are wider. As such, they encompass property values that would represent more than one notch segment on the other two models. A target that indicates -4 on the 305 could be a -8, -6, -4 or even a -2 on the 705. In other words, the 305 only has one choice in categorizing ferrous targets. The 705 has four different "ferrous notches" it can "chose" from. And on the 505, it could be a -9, -6 or a -3 because it has three different "ferrous notches" to chose from. But regardless of which model you have, that detector will base a targets placement on the actual ferrous/non-ferrous value as determined by the electronics. With all that said, I don't believe that all three detectors have the same discrimination notch capabilities, as far as Minimum - Maximum (ferrous/non-ferrous) values are concerned. While Field Testing the X-TERRAs, I found one exception to the school of thought that the "top end" and the "bottom end" of the ferrous / non-ferrous scale is the same for all three models. I discovered this using the -9 notch segment on the 50 during my initial Field Test. Using the 50 in a Pattern mode with zero discrimination, I was able to detect a specific piece of ferrite that registered a -9 on the TID. When I bought my 505, I got the same results. On the 30, 305, 70 and 705, using the same Pattern Mode with zero discrimination, I am not able to detect that same piece of ferrite. I am, however, able to detect that same small piece of ferrite when using All Metal mode in all X-TERRA models. To me, this suggests two things....... one is that the -9 of the 50 and 505 goes "lower" on ferrous scale than the -4 of the 30 or 305 OR the -8 of the 70 and 705. And two, setting up a Pattern with zero discrimination is not the same as running in All Metal. I believe that the discriminating characteristics of a Pattern mode actually limit the acceptible value of targets, based on the target's ferrous/non-ferrous properties and the parameters established in each notch segment. By using All Metal, even the most ferrous of objects can be detected by all three models. I believe that if you set your X-TERRA with a zero discrimination Pattern, even though you are not rejecting anything, there are properties that are not being accepted. Simply stated, I believe that Pattern modes are groupings of discrimination (notches) that are capable of rejecting any target whose properties fall within the characteristics assigned to them via software. However, by accepting the notch segments, I believe you are only accepting those targets whose values are defined (by software) to represent a target within each notch segment. If a target has properties that fall outside of those "notch definition" parameters, it will be ignored. Just as my one piece of ferrite is ignored by using zero discrimination on the 30, 305, 70 and 705.


As to Noise Cancel......as I understand it, the operating frequency is established by the software, as instructed by the microchip in the coil. However, frequency shifting (Noise Cancel filtering) occurs in an effort to minimize the harmonics of nearby electrical sources. The shift is minimal, compared to changing coils in that it may represent a small fraction of a kHz. Just enough to break the harmonic influence that could induce noise into the circuitry. Keep in mind that the detector acts as a transmitter and a receiver. The electronics in the housing transmit signals through the coil, into the ground. When those eddy currents are induced into a metallic object, that object generates it's own eddy currents of a lesser value and of opposite polarity. Those eddy currents are then recognized by the receive winding of the coil, and that information is passed to the electronics in the control housing. But just as the coil acts as a receiver for the target's' eddy currents, it also represents an antennae to outside electrical interference. VFLEX minimizes this interference by passing the signals from the coil to the control housing digitally. Other makes of detectors pass the information along the coil cable in an analog format, which allows for an even greater influx of EMF, RFI etc. My recommendation for performing a Noise Cancel is to hold the coil parallel to the ground, at waist height. By holding the coil parallel to the surface of the ground, you minimize the antennae effect of the coil. And by holding it waist high, you minimize the risk of having a detectible target under the coil at the time of your NC.


An experiment on Noise Cancel...something you can try at home..... if you have access to fluorescent light fixtures, stand under one of them, turn on your detector and max out the Sensitivity. If it chatters, change noise cancel channels and you'll likely notice a distinct change in the stability. If it doesn't chatter when you turn it on and max out the Sensitivity, go through the channels manually and you will see that there is a difference. JMHO HH Randy
 
Good reading. Minelab should be able to easily explain everything you have observed and then no one would have to speculate on why things appear the way they do, unfortunately for some reason they do not. They could also do everyone a favor and clearly explain the dreaded threshold's impact (if any) on performance. I think now its just a white noise generator to give your ears a stable background over which to hear signals (or blanking if one is discriminating).

I did this afternoon finally find a situation where noise cancel did something. This was when I was directly over a 50A underground power feed to a subpanel. I can now say that noise cancel is not simply a variable frequency filter as channel "-1" was the quietest and the lack of noise was not progressive from one channel to another. It either was noisy (very noisy) or was not.

Based on everything I have read and done with the 505, I believe that notch discrimination is mostly detrimental (don't do it) and TIDs are mostly misleading on all but the shallow targets.

The 505 is deep enough. I suspect most would agree after filtering through a seven inch cone of dirt looking for the elusive three pence. It will also sound off on a few mm's of aluminum and make you think you've found a trophy.

S505
 
Thanks. For a bit more information on the X-TERRA Threshold, you might take a look at page 34 and 35 of the the X-705 manual. A link to that manual is provided in the FAQFAQ section toward the top of these posts.

http://www.minelab.com/usa/products/coin-relic-detectors/x-terra-705?view=faq


[attachment 192246 thresholdxterra.jpg]


HH Randy
 
I've seen those pictures and still can not wrap my brain around what one achieves with Threshold. I know I don't want it too low and I know I don't want it too high and somewhere in the middle I will have achieved "greater control". Why don't they tell us what "greater control" does for us? I once thought this allowed you to set a minimum signal volume (good for folks who are losing their hearing) but I can detect no change in a faint signal when varying threshold. If you want an even better example of a poor explanation, check out the Threshold page from the 305/505 manual. It makes me think there is a disconnect between Minelab's technical staff and their marketing folks.

S505
 
If you've got a few minutes, read some of these posts that I've made in the past, concerning Threshold on the X-TERRA. It is not like some "other detectors" where the Threshold increases in volume as an accepted target was passed over. It is a separate tone from any of the target tones. When you pass over an accepted target with the X-TERRA, the Threshold tone is replaced by a target tone. When you pass over a rejected target, the Threshold blanks out. In fact, if you listen carefully, you can hear the Threshold stop before the target tone (or the null of blanking) replaces it. The Threshold tone really doesn't do much by itself, other than let you know the detector is still working. But I've proven to myself that there is a good reason to make sure it is set properly. HH Randy


http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,1113397,1113611#msg-1113611
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,1305829,1305993#msg-1305993
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,1290355,1290480#msg-1290480
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,623166,623414#msg-623414
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,811636,811646#msg-811646
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,757051,757536#msg-757536
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,811636,812591#msg-812591
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,708665,709378#msg-709378
 
I previously read on this forum that threshold does have an impact on whether or not a detector will detect a given target. However, my experience makes me agree that the threshold tone really doesn't do much. I think I will stick with the white noise analogy for now. Here is an example where a better explanation in the manual(s) might have prevented misinformation from being disseminated.

S505
 
If I hadn't witnessed this with my own eyes, I'd have trouble believing it myself.


Paragraph 3 in this link..... http://www.findmall.com/read.php?55,1290355,1290480#msg-1290480

HH Randy
 
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