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-16

Don in south Jersey is a colonial/large cent vacuum with the Minelab 8 inch coil. I can tell you that I have pounded park sites to pieces with the stock coil and then gone over them again with the 8 inch and recovered quite a few more coins hiding up closer to the iron and trash. At cellar holes something I found useful was to rake or kick away the 3+ inch layer of dead leafs to get down to the dirt. I only tested this on a small area in front of the door to a cellar hole but where there were nothing but iron signals before several brass pieces suddenly appeared including a nice buckle and a button.
 
46 years of detecting means nothing when you are learning an Explorer. I'd say at a year of hunting with it ALOT you're still learning.

-Bill
 
Cody,

You're wrong. I stand behind what Jim is saying. I have very close to 5 years on my Explorer. I hunt every weekend so I am not a casual detectorist. I'll bet you ANYTHING you want to bet that the Explorer will hit a coin while it in a TOTAL null with no threshold whatsoever. I hunt sites that the Explorer nulls almost the whole area. I think you need to take that Explorer out at least 2 days a week (minimum) for a year or so and then report back on what you find when it's in a null. There's a slight difference in what applies on the 'work bench' and what applies in the 'real world'. If your sure that the Explorer won't detect in a null... I am really interested in detecting some of your personal sites... :)

-Bill
 
I seen a big difference in areas where there is a lot of nulling, lower the sensitivity. I seen a area where at a 32 auto it could not see a dime on top of the ground. Lowered it to 24 auto and it was about a inch or 2, lowered it to 16 auto and it was a good 4 inches it could see the dime. Tried 20 manual and it was about 3 inches. Many people feel the higher sensitivity will give you the best depth, but only in clean areas that is not full of iron or a lot of nulling. More is not always the best and in some cases you will lose depth. Smaller coils or less sensitivity will work better where there is a lot of nulling.
 
I hope you guys are right. Let me ask a couple of question to correct my thinking. What is the value of iron mask if we can detect in null? What is the purpose of FAST if we can detect co-located targets while in null?

If we put a piece of iron next to a coin and set the detector to reject iron and we null on the iron we miss miss the coin. If we go t IM-16 we detect both. The different is we speed up recovery from null or don't null. How does this square with what you are saying?

Please understand I want the guys that say null does not have anything to do with depth or not detecting while in null to be correct. This means we don't need iron mask or a faster recovery speed. In iron mask I can hear all target all the time and I have assumed like all the other machines I have used with null discrimination it was due to null that I could not detect a target after one is rejected while the threshold recovers.

It appears I am wrong so would like to understand what prevents us from detecting the coin next to iron and again why do we need iron makes recover. Keep in mind I am a retired professor of electronics so need to understand this from what I have tested and that point of view.

By the way it is my understanding that Minelab also tells us it will detect while in null but I cannot get any of the ones I have used to do so and I have had at least a dozen Explorers, Advantages, Sovereigns since they first came to America. I have also used a good dozen DFX back to the first ones and the DFX has a "multitude" of setting to speed up the recover to overcome the problem of detecting while in null.

I appreciate the help in correct my understanding and how to get my machines to detect while in null.I get a lot of email wanting to know what to do about this problem and don't have an answer other than go to all metal or use Iron Mask or try FAST ON, sweep from a different direction etc.

Cody
 
Please look at my post to Bill above and help me to understand in a way that explains my questions.

Thanks for the help,
 
I am glad that I found this site. It made me a for sure sell on the explorer, and that I have found a place where people respect one anothers opinions,even if they don't agree.I am glad that Cody and Charles kept there tempers,this could have turned into a free for all.There is much to learn here,and I respect there's as well as jims info_One thing should be kept at the forfront,learning the explorer, enjoying the hobby,and respect for one another,as has been shown here.This is a "different" machine,it might take more than a few to figure its total capacity.I appreciate all of the replies to any questions I post,as well as the info that I get from others posts.Thannks for more great Info.scott.
 
Charles, if I put a piece of iron next to a quarter and set the Explorer to reject the iron and sweep the coil over the two targets the threshold will null and miss the coin.

What setting do you use to prevent the threshold null from rejecting the target?

I am not suggesting anyone is wrong just trying to understand. I am sorry if asking questions or disagreeing is construed as anything but that.
 
I have been using a Sovereign for over ten years, an X, XS, for so long I don't recall when I purchased the first one and purchased my first Explorer from Dixie Metals Detectors about 5 years ago. What you are confusing is when I purchased an Explorer11 about two years ago and since I am retired really stated to get into detecting daily instead of just when I could get out. I purchased several from Dave but did not have the time, I was teaching, to really get into the EX2 and then found the forums about two years ago. I think that is what confuses you about use.

However, you are correct in that I consider myself to be learning. However, learning cannot explain why a coin cannot be detected next to iron when the threshold goes into null. There is nothing wrong with wanting to have an answer to that. Many users would like to know the same answers from the emails I get. If you know setting to prevent that problem then please share them.

There is no adversarial intentions in asking questions or is it saying someone is right or wrong. It is a learning process that seems to be taken as personal when there are no intentions for that to happen. A common response is not to explain but just suggest more experienced is needed. Experience is a great teacher but there should be a common sense explanation for what we experience.

I enjoy all of the posts, agree with some, disagree with others, but don't have any personal feeling about it anymore than I did when going through or teaching at the university. It is a learning experience and one that is enjoyable but in this situation we also get to enjoy the user of a detector and the hobby.
 
Cody,

I don't have an answer for your question. I can assure you that it will detect targets while still in a null. I am not sure I follow you with your thinking that iron mask has more to do with nulling (or lack of) than say straight discrimation on the Explorer which makes the Explorer null on disced out targets. You might want to look at in the area of how the Explorer responds while in different modes... disc, iron mask, etc. And how it reacts with multiple nulling targets around a good target. The other thought that occurs to me is... That you have it set in your head that you can't detect in a null. If the target isn't disced out and is close to a disced out target why do you think the Explorer won't pick it up? The null apparently serves a different purpose than you or I am used to thinking of it as. I know what a null serves as 'traditionally' but the Explorer is far from an ordinary detector.

As far as why you never detecting a target while in a null... not sure why on that. I run my Explorer on IM-12 or so. I jump back and forth on manual and auto sensitivity depending on conditions.

About people email you... Nulling is not a 'problem' on the Explorer. Apparently it was the way it was designed. It's one of the main things on the Explorer people have to get used to. Some people act like nulling is causing poor performance, etc. The Explorer is not a silent search detector that alot of people are used to and that is why I think there's a problem when the Explorer's threshold cuts out. If you disc out pulltabs on my CZ-3D you don't hear anything to indicate you've passed over something disced out. On the Explorer it nulls.

-Bill
 
Bill, if we place a piece of iron next to a coin and we have the detector set to reject iron we will not detect the coin in most situations. That is why we have FAST so we can cause the audio to recover from null faster.

Iron Mask is a way to set discrimination in ferrous zones at all levels of conductivity. At IM-12 the more ferrous levels of metals that fall in zones -13, -14, and -15 are rejected. The threshold does not null in any zone where the IM is lower than -12 or the entire right side of the screen. That is what iron mask is for in that it keeps the detector from threshold null on a rejected targets.

In the example of the coin next to iron we can set our detector to FAST so the threshold will recover from threshold null faster. If it recovers fast enough we will detect the iron and the coin but if not we miss the coin. What we can do is go to an iron mask settings that will prevent the null at that ferrous level so we detect both the coin and iron. Most of the time we see the suggestion to use all metal detecting at IM-16 which is actually no threshold null.

I think what you are saying is Minelab has designed the null on rejected target to be just below the set point of the threshold so we may have less sensitivity but it responds like silent search. That may be what they do. However, why do we miss a coin next to iron when the detector nulls on the iron if this statement is correct.

I am trying to get past the fact that the detector will not detect a coin if in null next to iron. It will detect both if in all metal or I set the discrimination to not reject the iron. The only difference as far as I can see is threshold null.

I appreciate your responses to this problem in my understanding.
 
Member that Park in Round Lake I drained of Barbers with an XLT.Still waiting for you to find ANYTHING there before I get worried.Did find two more Barbers,an IH,V nickel,and a Buff in about an hours time there a few days ago.Your still more than welcome to try and find something there if you dare.haha.Dave
 
There are a lot of variables in the field.Is a coin lying under a small rusted nail,on top of a small rusted nail,to the side of one,between two small nails,between two large ones,etc.You could list a thousand variations.I hunt like you also,acceppt the iron and listen for the good tones mixed with them.Most places have been hunted to death for 30 plus years.Most of the good coins left will be masked in some way.The guys who actually hunt and find a lot of these are the ones who know how their machines work and what they're telling them.Dave
 
Dave Z, I love guys like you. I have been over a old courthouse ground with several detectors over the years. The most recent a XLT. Guess what? I went back over it with my new EX2 and found a 1779, a 1781 and a 1797 Spanish reale, several IH oldest a 1864, Union buttons and many silver coins. The best part most were nearly a foot in the ground. I had to buy a longer digger than the one I used with the XLT. I am still hunting in the factory presets with the EX2. Happy Hunting if the XLT works for you.
 
Cody the problem is that your test does not accurately reflect conditions in the field e.g. the undisturbed ground matrix, moisture, ground salts, target and iron halos are missing. Further, positionally your test reflects only a tiny fraction of the possible depths and target orientation you may encounter in the field.

That said it would be wise to point out that like your test bench results there ARE target orientations in the field that DO hide the coin from us. We know this is true because how many of us have detected a spot up, down, and sideways with the stock coil only to then recover additional targets using an 8 inch coil. And of those recovered with the stock coil how many were difficult, single direction signals that vanished in the iron when swept from any other angle. Or we detect a spot clean and after two winter frost heaves that move things around in the ground several more coins suddently appear.

I had one particular target, a silver quarter and silver dime in the same hole about 8 inches deep. Now normally that would be a slam dunk target yet I could only detect this target with the front few inches of my coil. If I moved any further it vanished in the iron. If I swepth from any other angle it vanished. After I recovered the target I found a rusty nail at 9 oclock, 12 oclock, and 3 oclock. They were all a few inches outside of my 6 inch plug projecting their iron signals out over this target along the length of the nail. Forget a coin next to a nail, coins many inches from a nail can be rendered undetectable by the nails ability to cast an iron signal out along its length quite a long distance. I would say the Explorer has more difficulty with this orientation than when the nail is closer.

But back to your test, I don't question the result you are getting in this test yet I have found coins next to iron, fused to iron, holed with big crusty iron wire through the coin and a lot smaller coins than a quarter. I have a tiny silver knob about the size of a 3 cent piece with its big rusty iron screw still molded into the thing. There go those field results poking holes in our test bench data again.

Next and most importantly, none of us has a definitive understanding of what Minelab is doing when it processes the receive signal. Obviously they are looking at multiple samples, applying some logic and providing us with a result via audio and target ID. But without a definitive understanding of how the program code and/or electronics is arriving at this decision we are thinking in the dark. Our best data for understanding this machine will be observations made in the field.

May I add that target orientation is extremely important on deeper targets which again weakens test bench data. As you know the magnetic field lines do not flow vertically straight into the ground, they are curved. And so deeper targets that are often tipped slightly on edge intersect the field lines of different sized coils at depth at odd different angles. We see results of this often using the 15 WOT coil which has a habit of hitting stronger on deep targets than on shallow ones to the point that it will reach under a shallow surface target and get a strong lock on a deep silver on edge coin underneath.

Lastly, I have recovered quite a few coins by digging silent signals in IM -16. Hey wait a minute, that doesn't make sense. How can you get dead silence in all metal? You should either get a threshold or a target tone but not dead silence right?

Well if you come across a nail at 9 oclock and 3 oclock say 15 inches apart and inbetween these two nails you get a silent signal e.g. no threshold, no iron tones, dead silence, my advice is dig. It seems that when two nails are pointing towards each other even when this far apart they can cast an iron shield out over the coin. But its weak. The Explorer appears to get confused and can't make up its mind what sound to play and so it sits there dead silent wondering what to do. That tells me that A there is a target between them and B its not a nail.

Charles
 
I don't put a lot of faith in bench tests unless they are backed up in the field.

Actually what I am thinking is the Explorer may be designed to not go deep into null. As an example if the threshold is set to 8 then a null only needs to drive the audio silent which would happen at 7. If that is what happens then we only have a little loss in dept or sensitivity if we see it that way. I hope this is correct because that means I can use the settings I like, close up the upper left corner of the screen that lets in all the iron signals, set the threshold to my hearing then drop it one click and use silent search with hardly any loss.

This really sounds good so I am anxious to test this in a trashy park and fairground I search.

When we think something works in a specified way then we have a tendency to interpret what we see or hear in a skewed way. That may well be what I have done with null discrimination. I am very open to being wrong about the null and hope I am. I need to order some detectors and will ask for clarification on this with Minelab. I admit to leaning in that direction based on the responses from you and others.

The idea of not having less depth in null is hopeful as I have have considered that to be a major problem with null discrimination. We are still having pretty good weather so will use my settings with some adjustments and then drop the threshold down a click below sound to see what happens.

I have read your posts many times and often thought how accurate and spot on they are so take notice of what you say. That is also true of many of the guys when their posts reflects the experience and expertise of the author. I admit to not paying much attention if I constantly see posts that seem to push a particular brand and are not very objective.

Anyhow I am going to give it a try in a day or so and see what happens so thanks fore putting up with me on this. I am the type that will dig at a point till I understand.
 
DaveZ, I will go to the DFX forum for the answer but why do we need so many recovery speeds on the DFX?
 
Cody after giving this some thought I think you are correct in a technical sense but nevertheless wrong in your answer to this person's question.

Technically can the machine give you a coin tone and a null at the same time? Technically no. Now...lets say you are detecting a site that is so infested with iron that your machine is in a constant null, yet all of a sudden it locks onto a coin. At that point you are technically no longer in a null and so it doesn't conflict with your position. You were in a null a second ago, but now the machine which is sampling several thousand times a second has locked onto the coin.

So the answer to this person's question is, yes don't worry about being in a constant null, if you get the coil over a coin that is orientated in such a way that its possible to get a coin signal, you will get one.

Throttling back the sens and gain to the point that you have a threshold, is another valid way to hunt the same spot. I'm sure there are coins this method may pick up that would be missed by hunting with a setup that results in a constant null. The reverse is also true, throttle your machine back that far and your odds of hitting a deeper coin the null method might lock onto go way down. Point is both methods are valid.

Charles
 
Just an FYI...I noticed that you allow in the iron top/left corner (thats a good thing) but black out an area along the top of the screen where coins, buttons, and some relics will hit. Mostly wheat cents influenced by nearby iron and some types of ground mineralization will hit along the top of the screen, middle to left of center. On rare occasion I have seen silver yanked over that far by the iron. Just an fyi. Also, the bottom right corner of the screen will knock out some deep iffier (is that a word?) nickels, the bad ones tend to get over there on the right edge about nickel height smack in the rusty bottle cap zone and stay there. When they are bouncing they sometimes hit right side of screen 2-3 swings out of 4. The discrimation is anxiously close to where pre 1864 indians hit also. Again just an fyi. I often black out that rusty crown cap area myself.
 
I adjust the recovery speed to the amount of trash at a site.If there are pull tabs,screwcaps,etc.all over the place.I just put a small coil on and turn the recovery speed up and the filters down.At old cellar holes where there's a lot of iron,it doesn't have to be cranked up.I'd rather the detector average the good signals with the iron rather then try to seperate them.Dave
 
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