I dug a wheaty up last month.I remember getting down about 5" and finding a rusty nail.I thought it must have just been a false signal.I stuck the probe back in the hole and got a penny sound.About 2" directly under the nail was the wheaty.I once found a Barber dime lying on top of foot long strip of iron.It was on the bottom edge of the iron.I really think that where the coin is lying in relationship to the iron makes a difference.Seems that when its an inch or two below the iron,it will respond a better.Dave
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-16
- Thread starter Jim-IN
- Start date
Yes, I agree that is why I use it as a "base" program then tailor it to the site. I prefer to just kill most of the IM-15 zone. I have found coins over at the lower right so kind of play the odds with how and where to reject based on the site. That upper left corner is what interested me so much about the null. If I can close that up for a base program and not be concerned with null and click the threshold down a notch to silent it would be better than hearing all that iron or no iron nulls in those really trashy areas. I run IM-16 in clean ground so it is a mute issue.
I have about come to the same conclusion on null discrimination. I suspect that Minelab has the null set so it drops just below the threshold set point. The old detector drove the null very deep into audio cutoff. It makes more sense to only drive it just below sound. Silent search on some machines have a fairly sensitive circuit to keep the threshold just slightly below sound.
If we look at the threshold on the Explorer it still indicates a threshold even after we cannot hear one. A really good design would be as you indicate with the null just below our threshold set point for sound. I am starting to think that is what happens.
However, I agree that this has been beat to death. I am going to close up that upper left open area and see what happens if I drop the threshold a click below audible sound. I can make some Audio Gain and sensitivity adjustments.
I appreciate the input and am constantly looking for better and more effective way to use the Explorer and my other machines.
I have about come to the same conclusion on null discrimination. I suspect that Minelab has the null set so it drops just below the threshold set point. The old detector drove the null very deep into audio cutoff. It makes more sense to only drive it just below sound. Silent search on some machines have a fairly sensitive circuit to keep the threshold just slightly below sound.
If we look at the threshold on the Explorer it still indicates a threshold even after we cannot hear one. A really good design would be as you indicate with the null just below our threshold set point for sound. I am starting to think that is what happens.
However, I agree that this has been beat to death. I am going to close up that upper left open area and see what happens if I drop the threshold a click below audible sound. I can make some Audio Gain and sensitivity adjustments.
I appreciate the input and am constantly looking for better and more effective way to use the Explorer and my other machines.
Well if you come across a nail at 9 oclock and 3 oclock say 15 inches apart and inbetween these two nails you get a silent signal e.g. no threshold, no iron tones, dead silence, my advice is dig. It seems that when two nails are pointing towards each other even when this far apart they can cast an iron shield out over the coin. But its weak. The Explorer appears to get confused and can't make up its mind what sound to play and so it sits there dead silent wondering what to do. That tells me that A there is a target between them and B its not a nail.
I have had this happen to me also. Unfortunately, I did not dig the non-signal.
AK in KY
I have had this happen to me also. Unfortunately, I did not dig the non-signal.
AK in KY
Charles (Upstate NY)
Well-known member
n/t
Charles (Upstate NY)
Well-known member
Good post. I still tip my hat in awe at your elbow length indian head cent from the iron infested Albany park. Hunting in the heavy iron is tricky business, there's plenty I still don't know on this subject.
Cody,
Believe me I understand how detectors work. In your first paragraph you say about a coin close to iron not being detected in most situations. But, I have picked coins up so close to iron they have iron marks on them from being against the iron. I have also had good coin signals and dug the target to find a nail. When I reswing the hole there is a coin below the nail. I know it should not be but it is. There is something in the Explorer software side that allows the coin to be picked up in some of those circumstances. The Explorer is exceptional in it's ability in iron. Maybe Minelab figured out something they could do on the software side. None of us has seen the software side to the Minelab. I don't profess to understand but know it does...
-Bill
Believe me I understand how detectors work. In your first paragraph you say about a coin close to iron not being detected in most situations. But, I have picked coins up so close to iron they have iron marks on them from being against the iron. I have also had good coin signals and dug the target to find a nail. When I reswing the hole there is a coin below the nail. I know it should not be but it is. There is something in the Explorer software side that allows the coin to be picked up in some of those circumstances. The Explorer is exceptional in it's ability in iron. Maybe Minelab figured out something they could do on the software side. None of us has seen the software side to the Minelab. I don't profess to understand but know it does...
-Bill
Cody,
I don't ever get into taking anything personal on forums. I can't really believe you have never found a coin or target while in a complete null if you have used the Explorer alot. I hunt, I dig. I don't pick through each find with any thoughts other than personal mental notes on how it sounded on the Explorer. I am that comfortable with the Explorer than I don't have to over analyze most targets. When I first bought my Explorer the loss of thresold was distracting and like alot of other people assumed it couldn't hit anything in a null. The only thing I can tell you is I hunt totally by sound and IM-12 or so. I never look at my LCD for ID. I wish I could give you some directions but alas I am not into whys in detecting. If it works I use it.
-Bill
I don't ever get into taking anything personal on forums. I can't really believe you have never found a coin or target while in a complete null if you have used the Explorer alot. I hunt, I dig. I don't pick through each find with any thoughts other than personal mental notes on how it sounded on the Explorer. I am that comfortable with the Explorer than I don't have to over analyze most targets. When I first bought my Explorer the loss of thresold was distracting and like alot of other people assumed it couldn't hit anything in a null. The only thing I can tell you is I hunt totally by sound and IM-12 or so. I never look at my LCD for ID. I wish I could give you some directions but alas I am not into whys in detecting. If it works I use it.
-Bill
I believe you know how a detector works and don't question that at all. I do not at all question if a nail can be co-located with a coin and still be detected. I have found a few that were in the same hole as a coin. There has been times when just the tip of the nail was in the hole with the nail.
I will try to gain more experience so I can tell if iron other than nails are co-located with precious metals. I evidently don't have the experience or correct settings to do that as of now. I don't know if it is poor hearing, lack of skills, or what but I simply cannot tell if most iron is co-located with precious metals when my machine is set to reject iron. I would really like to be able to do so and will just have to try and work it out.
I do thank you for informing me that this is something we can do with our Explorer due to the algorithms used by Minelab. I had no idea that was possible and had give up on this. I have decided to go back and try some settings and see if I can make it work for me.
I will try to gain more experience so I can tell if iron other than nails are co-located with precious metals. I evidently don't have the experience or correct settings to do that as of now. I don't know if it is poor hearing, lack of skills, or what but I simply cannot tell if most iron is co-located with precious metals when my machine is set to reject iron. I would really like to be able to do so and will just have to try and work it out.
I do thank you for informing me that this is something we can do with our Explorer due to the algorithms used by Minelab. I had no idea that was possible and had give up on this. I have decided to go back and try some settings and see if I can make it work for me.
Cody,
I'll tell you what. I hunt with a guy who uses an Explorer too. Long story made short. We hooked up so I could help him learn the Explorer. That was almost 3 years ago and he still struggles at times. No bragging intended but I can walk behind him and pick up coins he missed that were not the normal sounding coins. But, they're still poking through. He did pick up better headphones and that has help him a good bit. But, there's still coins he misses. I am not sure if it's the 2 years experience I have on him or just a knack for the Explorer. I have taught him 100% of what I know and hunt with him almost all of the time. There was even a point where he thought he had a bad coil. But, if I would find a nice deep coin and would show it to him before I dug it he could hit the coin just fine. I've even taken his Explorer and set it up exactly the same as mine to no avail. Sometimes the human factor is hard to duplicate.
-Bill
I'll tell you what. I hunt with a guy who uses an Explorer too. Long story made short. We hooked up so I could help him learn the Explorer. That was almost 3 years ago and he still struggles at times. No bragging intended but I can walk behind him and pick up coins he missed that were not the normal sounding coins. But, they're still poking through. He did pick up better headphones and that has help him a good bit. But, there's still coins he misses. I am not sure if it's the 2 years experience I have on him or just a knack for the Explorer. I have taught him 100% of what I know and hunt with him almost all of the time. There was even a point where he thought he had a bad coil. But, if I would find a nice deep coin and would show it to him before I dug it he could hit the coin just fine. I've even taken his Explorer and set it up exactly the same as mine to no avail. Sometimes the human factor is hard to duplicate.
-Bill
I understand when I watch my son hunt. He is only 34 and just burns it up with his Explorer. I am starting to hunt in spurts at 65 but don't intend to lay the machine down till I drop.
There has been a lot of good ideas cross my mind as a results of these discussions. I need to talk to Minelab folks so hope I get someone to talk technical. I talked to Jack at Minelab while I was still teaching in 2000 and we really kicked the S, and XS around then later on the EX2. Their engineers are down under so we don't get to talk to them. I would love to spend the evening picking their brains.
I have seen that over the years when a guy simply has some kind of a 6th sense or something when it comes to finding goodies. It is a gift and a good one.
There has been a lot of good ideas cross my mind as a results of these discussions. I need to talk to Minelab folks so hope I get someone to talk technical. I talked to Jack at Minelab while I was still teaching in 2000 and we really kicked the S, and XS around then later on the EX2. Their engineers are down under so we don't get to talk to them. I would love to spend the evening picking their brains.
I have seen that over the years when a guy simply has some kind of a 6th sense or something when it comes to finding goodies. It is a gift and a good one.
Chris(SoCenWI)
Well-known member
Posted this a million times, here is million and one.
Set a nail on top of coin and start swinging while you circle the combo, When the nail is pointing in the same direction as the center web you can get the coin. Ninety degrees away just a null. Stuff in the ground is more complicated but this basically shows why you have to hit productive sites from many angles.
Chris
Set a nail on top of coin and start swinging while you circle the combo, When the nail is pointing in the same direction as the center web you can get the coin. Ninety degrees away just a null. Stuff in the ground is more complicated but this basically shows why you have to hit productive sites from many angles.
Chris
Captain Kirk
New member
Cody,
I thought I would just stir things up a bit.
It seems obvious that you can not detect a target while in a null, but this may be a bit simplistic. I am particularly want to direct attention to co-located targets, or at least targets that are very close together.
Consider this experiment in air just an as example. It is realized that the results will be somewhat different in the ground, but it still illustrates a point.
* I am using a very rusty 3.5" nail that was dug out of the ground. In addition to the nail, I am using a clad dime (because it is small compared to the nail).
* The IM is set to -14.
* Sensitivity is set to 22.
* DEEP on and FAST off.
* FERROUS mode, but that is not important other than giving more tonal difference as the target is swept.
EXPERIMENT #1
The nail is slowly swept (about 1 foot/sec) below the bottom of the coil (about 6" away from the coil) with the nail parallel to the center strip of the coil. The detector goes into a null.
EXPERIMENT #2
The dime is placed on top of the nail (and touching the nail) in the center of the length wise position of the nail and the combination is swept over the coil. No null is generated and the cursor hits at 27/29 (Ferrous/Conductive). Of course there may be considerable variation from sweep to sweep.
EXPERIMENT #3
Same as #2 except the dime is placed underneath the nail. Produces about the same results as #2.
EXPERIMENT #4
Same as #2 except the dime is to the side of the nail and in the same plane as the nail. The dime is touching the nail. Produce similar results as #2 and the cursor hits at 26/29 in one direction and 21/29 in the other direction. Again there may be considerable variation in the reading from sweep to sweep.
CONCLUSIONS FOR A NAIL AND CLAD DIME CO-LOCATED:
A) A composit target is indicated that is outside the masked area. That spot on the Smart screen is influenced by both the nail and the dime simultaneously and is dependent upon the spacial relationship between the nail and the dime. If that spot is outside the masked area, then a target is detected. Otherwise a null is generated.
B) What would have been a null when the dime was not present is now no longer a null (but depends upon the masking used) when the dime is present.
HH,
Glenn
I thought I would just stir things up a bit.
It seems obvious that you can not detect a target while in a null, but this may be a bit simplistic. I am particularly want to direct attention to co-located targets, or at least targets that are very close together.
Consider this experiment in air just an as example. It is realized that the results will be somewhat different in the ground, but it still illustrates a point.
* I am using a very rusty 3.5" nail that was dug out of the ground. In addition to the nail, I am using a clad dime (because it is small compared to the nail).
* The IM is set to -14.
* Sensitivity is set to 22.
* DEEP on and FAST off.
* FERROUS mode, but that is not important other than giving more tonal difference as the target is swept.
EXPERIMENT #1
The nail is slowly swept (about 1 foot/sec) below the bottom of the coil (about 6" away from the coil) with the nail parallel to the center strip of the coil. The detector goes into a null.
EXPERIMENT #2
The dime is placed on top of the nail (and touching the nail) in the center of the length wise position of the nail and the combination is swept over the coil. No null is generated and the cursor hits at 27/29 (Ferrous/Conductive). Of course there may be considerable variation from sweep to sweep.
EXPERIMENT #3
Same as #2 except the dime is placed underneath the nail. Produces about the same results as #2.
EXPERIMENT #4
Same as #2 except the dime is to the side of the nail and in the same plane as the nail. The dime is touching the nail. Produce similar results as #2 and the cursor hits at 26/29 in one direction and 21/29 in the other direction. Again there may be considerable variation in the reading from sweep to sweep.
CONCLUSIONS FOR A NAIL AND CLAD DIME CO-LOCATED:
A) A composit target is indicated that is outside the masked area. That spot on the Smart screen is influenced by both the nail and the dime simultaneously and is dependent upon the spacial relationship between the nail and the dime. If that spot is outside the masked area, then a target is detected. Otherwise a null is generated.
B) What would have been a null when the dime was not present is now no longer a null (but depends upon the masking used) when the dime is present.
HH,
Glenn
Chris(SoCenWI)
Well-known member
Once you start to detect the combo when the nail is not parallel to the center web you only get a null right? I've done this experiment many times and it is an eye opener on the effects of colocated targets and the importance of hitting a site from many angles.
Maybe some cold winter will make up a batch of jello as a proxy for the earth and try doing more of a 3D colocated target experiment.
Chris
Maybe some cold winter will make up a batch of jello as a proxy for the earth and try doing more of a 3D colocated target experiment.
Chris
Captain Kirk
New member
Chris,
The detector will not break out of the IM=-14 mask if the nail/dime combination is at right angles to the center strip. I did not mention that test because my objective was to illustrate that a dime can be seen (even though the detector does not screem "dime") next to a nail (that would have caused a null if the nail were the only target). So the dime is not detected during the null, but rather prevented the null from being generated.
HH,
Glenn
The detector will not break out of the IM=-14 mask if the nail/dime combination is at right angles to the center strip. I did not mention that test because my objective was to illustrate that a dime can be seen (even though the detector does not screem "dime") next to a nail (that would have caused a null if the nail were the only target). So the dime is not detected during the null, but rather prevented the null from being generated.
HH,
Glenn
Yes, you are correct it is simplistic. There is a lot more involved than just it is or is not. I always enjoy your great illustrations and comments.
Glenn, do you think Minelab has designed the threshold so that no matter where the set point is for the user the null will only go to just the silent point? As an example if I have the threshold set to the slightest hum at 8 and then the null is to 7. I can play with the Sovereign and it seems to work this way. I suspect it does and it is the time constant that causes long and short delays in the return from null. Fast forces a quicker return which is one reason why target id is not as good. The old Tr had a threshold that could be driven very deep into audio cutoff or only slightly but I don't think that happens with the newer machines. It makes sense to me to only drop it to silent threshold.
Glenn, do you think Minelab has designed the threshold so that no matter where the set point is for the user the null will only go to just the silent point? As an example if I have the threshold set to the slightest hum at 8 and then the null is to 7. I can play with the Sovereign and it seems to work this way. I suspect it does and it is the time constant that causes long and short delays in the return from null. Fast forces a quicker return which is one reason why target id is not as good. The old Tr had a threshold that could be driven very deep into audio cutoff or only slightly but I don't think that happens with the newer machines. It makes sense to me to only drop it to silent threshold.
Glenn, I am always hesitant to use a nail since they do not respond like most iron due to eddy current flow around and down the axis. Only iron in that shape, and size is a factor, has that odd eddy current flow instead of a swirl flow.
Is the serial or parallel analogy correct for a round steel washer as an example?
Is the serial or parallel analogy correct for a round steel washer as an example?