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2 words that should never be used in the same sentence - Cheap and Water Hunting
- Thread starter bdahunter
- Start date
It looks like it will last forever and I like the open top so you can reach in from the side when you lift the scoop.
Critterhunter
New member
I'll be the one to disagree here on a few things. First, if you want something for the beach consider the Sovereign GT. I've heard many people say an Excalibur or GT will get deeper and run smoother in some grounds than the FBS machines like the Explorer or Etrac. I know that's been true for me compared to the Explorers I've owned, and the GT is not just more stable at certain spots but also is deeper in areas where the Explorer seemed to run fine for me. At least I've dug deeper coins with the GT then I've ever dug with the Explorers I've owned. Many people who have owned all three say the GT's depth is right there with the Explorer and Etrac. I've also heard that larger coils seem to run smoother on the Sovereign due to the higher/more frequencies of FBS machines which are either picking up more noise or are reflecting off ground minerals.
But, mainly I'd say the main reason I'd recommend a GT is that you can hip mount it right out of the box so it's perfect to wade with as well as land hunt with. If you are going to be in the water most of the time then the Excalibur is the way to go, but if doing more dry sand and land then get the GT. It's got the ability to "live" in both worlds, chest or hip mounted it's a water machine for the most part, throw a meter on it and it's one of the best land machines on the market to get the deepest of old coins. For "$300" (<---- !) you can get and older Sovereign and it will perform as well or better than any other machine on the beach.
Onto the "cheap" theme....While we are throwing out "words that should never be used in the same sentence", how about sentences that should never be used in a forum designed to help people? Like for instance saying something like- "So Please, stop asking the question, seriously - please stop.", or how about "Don't waste your time or mine."? That's pretty harsh, don't you think? Perhaps others don't like hearing about the specific machine you have. I don't think you'd like it if they said the same thing to you.
Remember that none of us were born into this hobby owning the most expensive machine and having all the knowledge needed. I wager to bet that most of us started out with some junky machine that wouldn't even be good enough to sell at Walmart these days. I always took offense to people who gave others a hard time about asking questions. If other people did the same thing to them they would never know today what they know, and NOBODY was born with all the answers without the need to ask. We all started out with no knowledge on detectors, or any other subject for that matter.
I know where you are coming from but there is no hard and fast rule to that kind of thinking. For instance, I like Mossburg shotguns. They are about half the price of other brands, cheap to put it bluntly, but being cheap doesn't mean they aren't as good of guns as something costing twice as much. Same thing with detectors. If you listen to some people they'll have you buying the flag ship Whites like the XLT or DFX. Without going into details all I'll say is that there are cheaper Whites that are just as deep or deeper. If I'm going to spend that kind of money I'm off to a Minelab for real "value" in buying a flagship performance detector.
As for water machines, some people simply can not afford $1000 to spend. Does that mean they are not allowed in the hobby or people should look down their nose at them when they post messages on a board asking questions about the only machine they could afford? I don't think we live in that kind of country where the lower class aren't allowed to speak up, do you?
And then let's remember the great debate on sand scoops. Here's another blind spot that some in this forum seem to have. Everybody just assumes we are all hunting salt water. I'd say there's probably just as many people who hunt fresh water lakes as a whole than the ocean. There's many more lakes spread and peppered across the country far far away from driving distance to salt water beaches. I've never even been on a salt water beach in my entire life. Does that make me odd? No, (but other things do make me odd
) that makes me your typical person living in the midwest or central part of the US who doesn't have the time or money to travel to some exotic salt water beach others are lucky enough to live nearby. Remember us? We're what those elites on TV call "fly over country".
In that case some kind of scoop (or metal detector for that matter) designed to hold up to the worst ocean salt and rocks is simply not needed, so why spend all that money for something that isn't ever going to see one grain of salt, sea shells, coral, or rocks that can tear up other scoops in the ocean. I'm also not one of those people who goes out and hunts beaches every single say. Mostly I'm a land hunter but plan to do a little more beach work this year with my GT. Based on the limited time I'll be doing that I don't need a piece of equipment that's designed to put up with constant daily abuse.
Like I said, there are no hard and fast rules here for me. As cheap as I am in some areas I'm also apt to spend a lot in others. It comes down to what is important to ME, not what is important to you. So long as we live in the land of the semi-free I'll spend my money my way and you spend yours your way. We can also decide how we want to treat each other. You talk smack about my choices and I'm likely to return the favor.
One small example in the other direction for me before going: If you would have told me a year ago I'd ever spend more than $50 on a pinpointer I would have laughed. After using a friend's ProPointer I just had to have one. It's that good. But, that's my choice.
I decided it's performance was worth all that money. Too many variables to make such a bold statement that X amount of dollars needs to be spent for a certain hobby. I build RC planes out of hot wired foam to save money, and also used electronics that is "cheap" but just as good as the "brand" name parts.
Heck, some people who water hunt buy an older Sovereign model for $300 and install it into a waterproof box turning it into just as good a water unit as anything you can buy for $1000. Does that mean they should be looked down upon? I don't think so. In fact, that "cheap" water machine will blow away just about anything out there on the beach, regardless of how much green you spent on it.
That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Always enjoyed a good debate so let the deliberations begin...
But, mainly I'd say the main reason I'd recommend a GT is that you can hip mount it right out of the box so it's perfect to wade with as well as land hunt with. If you are going to be in the water most of the time then the Excalibur is the way to go, but if doing more dry sand and land then get the GT. It's got the ability to "live" in both worlds, chest or hip mounted it's a water machine for the most part, throw a meter on it and it's one of the best land machines on the market to get the deepest of old coins. For "$300" (<---- !) you can get and older Sovereign and it will perform as well or better than any other machine on the beach.
Onto the "cheap" theme....While we are throwing out "words that should never be used in the same sentence", how about sentences that should never be used in a forum designed to help people? Like for instance saying something like- "So Please, stop asking the question, seriously - please stop.", or how about "Don't waste your time or mine."? That's pretty harsh, don't you think? Perhaps others don't like hearing about the specific machine you have. I don't think you'd like it if they said the same thing to you.
Remember that none of us were born into this hobby owning the most expensive machine and having all the knowledge needed. I wager to bet that most of us started out with some junky machine that wouldn't even be good enough to sell at Walmart these days. I always took offense to people who gave others a hard time about asking questions. If other people did the same thing to them they would never know today what they know, and NOBODY was born with all the answers without the need to ask. We all started out with no knowledge on detectors, or any other subject for that matter.
I know where you are coming from but there is no hard and fast rule to that kind of thinking. For instance, I like Mossburg shotguns. They are about half the price of other brands, cheap to put it bluntly, but being cheap doesn't mean they aren't as good of guns as something costing twice as much. Same thing with detectors. If you listen to some people they'll have you buying the flag ship Whites like the XLT or DFX. Without going into details all I'll say is that there are cheaper Whites that are just as deep or deeper. If I'm going to spend that kind of money I'm off to a Minelab for real "value" in buying a flagship performance detector.
As for water machines, some people simply can not afford $1000 to spend. Does that mean they are not allowed in the hobby or people should look down their nose at them when they post messages on a board asking questions about the only machine they could afford? I don't think we live in that kind of country where the lower class aren't allowed to speak up, do you?
And then let's remember the great debate on sand scoops. Here's another blind spot that some in this forum seem to have. Everybody just assumes we are all hunting salt water. I'd say there's probably just as many people who hunt fresh water lakes as a whole than the ocean. There's many more lakes spread and peppered across the country far far away from driving distance to salt water beaches. I've never even been on a salt water beach in my entire life. Does that make me odd? No, (but other things do make me odd
) that makes me your typical person living in the midwest or central part of the US who doesn't have the time or money to travel to some exotic salt water beach others are lucky enough to live nearby. Remember us? We're what those elites on TV call "fly over country".In that case some kind of scoop (or metal detector for that matter) designed to hold up to the worst ocean salt and rocks is simply not needed, so why spend all that money for something that isn't ever going to see one grain of salt, sea shells, coral, or rocks that can tear up other scoops in the ocean. I'm also not one of those people who goes out and hunts beaches every single say. Mostly I'm a land hunter but plan to do a little more beach work this year with my GT. Based on the limited time I'll be doing that I don't need a piece of equipment that's designed to put up with constant daily abuse.
Like I said, there are no hard and fast rules here for me. As cheap as I am in some areas I'm also apt to spend a lot in others. It comes down to what is important to ME, not what is important to you. So long as we live in the land of the semi-free I'll spend my money my way and you spend yours your way. We can also decide how we want to treat each other. You talk smack about my choices and I'm likely to return the favor.
One small example in the other direction for me before going: If you would have told me a year ago I'd ever spend more than $50 on a pinpointer I would have laughed. After using a friend's ProPointer I just had to have one. It's that good. But, that's my choice.
I decided it's performance was worth all that money. Too many variables to make such a bold statement that X amount of dollars needs to be spent for a certain hobby. I build RC planes out of hot wired foam to save money, and also used electronics that is "cheap" but just as good as the "brand" name parts.
Heck, some people who water hunt buy an older Sovereign model for $300 and install it into a waterproof box turning it into just as good a water unit as anything you can buy for $1000. Does that mean they should be looked down upon? I don't think so. In fact, that "cheap" water machine will blow away just about anything out there on the beach, regardless of how much green you spent on it.
That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Always enjoyed a good debate so let the deliberations begin...
Critterhunter
New member
By the way, if you guys who do a lot of beach hunting are telling me that a decent scoop can't be had for $40 or $50 I simply refuse to pay well over $100 for a piece of metal with no moving parts or exotic electronics inside it. That seems a little out there price wise. My neighbor is welding in his garage almost every day and I just noticed he has a bunch of aluminum diamond plate and other aluminum scrap laying around. I'd rather lay $40 or $50 in his had to let me use his welder and some scrap to build one rather than pay double to some company for a simple piece of metal with a few welds. I can't believe there is NOTHING in the $40 or $50 range that will hold up to moderate use on a fresh water beach myself and will check further into it.
Critterhunter
New member
I can't go back and edit my message so I want to make it clear I'm not talking to any specific person in my above response. Just a general conversation about what one person considers value for a certain amount of money. I apologize in advance if I offended anybody because that was not my intent. I wish I could edit out a few harsher senstences but the time limit for editing is up. 
I'd love to hear other differing views on this subject, as well as if anybody knows where I might find a scoop in the $40 to $50 price range that should hold up to moderate use on fresh water beaches.
I'd love to hear other differing views on this subject, as well as if anybody knows where I might find a scoop in the $40 to $50 price range that should hold up to moderate use on fresh water beaches.
In defense of those folks who ask that certain questions not be asked I must say that most of the questions asked on a daily basis have already been answered in a prior post somewhere!
Topics such as which scoops, which machine, how much should a machine cost, etc., etc. have all been covered so well that when a post shows up asking the same old questions I want to shout at these folks to check out the posts and replies for the pats few years and you'll find your answer!
It's refreshing to hear a well thought out question!
All that being said Friends and Fellow Hunters, I have been guilty of asking a few myself and not doing my research and I hereby publicly apologize to you all,
CJ
Topics such as which scoops, which machine, how much should a machine cost, etc., etc. have all been covered so well that when a post shows up asking the same old questions I want to shout at these folks to check out the posts and replies for the pats few years and you'll find your answer!
It's refreshing to hear a well thought out question!
All that being said Friends and Fellow Hunters, I have been guilty of asking a few myself and not doing my research and I hereby publicly apologize to you all,
CJ
This is not a post about dry sanding or even a post about wetsanding - this is a post about getting wet, underwater. Anybody can try to use any gear they want to use but to be honest most of the detectors on the market cannot take getting wet and unless you spend some real dollars you aren't going to get equipment that works well or lasts long because the ocean is a harsh environment that works against detectors. I didn't make electronics incompatible with water and I didn't make salt a barrier to detectors but these are the cold, hard facts.
In the dry sand and even in the wet sand you can get by with a more affordable machine but once you go subaqua it's time to belly up to the bar and put some real money down.
I received excellent advice from experienced members when I started water hunting but I also quickly recalled the lesson of not troubling experienced hunters with inane questions if I wanted answers on important questions.
This was taught to me at an early age by an experienced construction manager when I was still learning the business. When I approached him to asked him a question, he would demand that I put a dollar on his desk before I asked the question, then if my question was reasonable I got my dollar back, if it was a question that I could have answered myself or a question that I had asked before but was too lazy to remember, then he kept my dollar. I always asked Del questions because he had good answers that he had learned from the school of hard knocks - knocks that had cost him time and money - value for dollar is what it amounted to. I didn't ask stupid questions and I remembered his answers, it didn't take long before I not only didn't lose my dollar but I gained the respect of a wise man. That's money in the bank.
I made my first scoop out of pvc pipe and a shovel handle, it worked pretty good but it was also unwieldly - my detector was a jump from an ACE250 to an Excal. Go Big or Go Home - that's what works in 'water hunting'.
So I repeat, do not waste my time with a question unless you want to put $10 on my desk. (inflation is a killer isn't it)
Just like Del I'll help anyone who wants to learn but I'm nobody's mother and I don't want to be either.
Cheers,
BDA
In the dry sand and even in the wet sand you can get by with a more affordable machine but once you go subaqua it's time to belly up to the bar and put some real money down.
I received excellent advice from experienced members when I started water hunting but I also quickly recalled the lesson of not troubling experienced hunters with inane questions if I wanted answers on important questions.
This was taught to me at an early age by an experienced construction manager when I was still learning the business. When I approached him to asked him a question, he would demand that I put a dollar on his desk before I asked the question, then if my question was reasonable I got my dollar back, if it was a question that I could have answered myself or a question that I had asked before but was too lazy to remember, then he kept my dollar. I always asked Del questions because he had good answers that he had learned from the school of hard knocks - knocks that had cost him time and money - value for dollar is what it amounted to. I didn't ask stupid questions and I remembered his answers, it didn't take long before I not only didn't lose my dollar but I gained the respect of a wise man. That's money in the bank.
I made my first scoop out of pvc pipe and a shovel handle, it worked pretty good but it was also unwieldly - my detector was a jump from an ACE250 to an Excal. Go Big or Go Home - that's what works in 'water hunting'.
So I repeat, do not waste my time with a question unless you want to put $10 on my desk. (inflation is a killer isn't it)
Just like Del I'll help anyone who wants to learn but I'm nobody's mother and I don't want to be either.Cheers,
BDA
You didn't bother me at all or hurt my feelings. The only thing anyone here was talking about was, buying cheap inferior junk will lead to matching results. I would definitely rather pay 100 dollars for a quality beach scoop that will last me for years than pay 40 for a piece of junk that will ultimately lead me to purchasing a $100.00 one anyway, so why have $140.00 in a scoop when you can have 100.00.
Several years ago when I purchased a John Deere riding mower I had a friend that gave me crap for paying 2,000 dollars for a riding mower. He began to tell me I could have purchased 2 MTD mowers for what I gave for the John Deere, I just smiled and explained I only needed 1.
If you have access to some free scrap and a welder you can make the scoop how you want it and strong enough to hold up. I dig up to 2 feet deep on the beach which is usually sunglasses, and a cheap scoop would not last me 2 days. I only get to ocean beach hunt once a year while on vacation but I am out there 6 days a week 6 to 8 hours a day hunting both low tides and I want the best for the money, no flimsy crap.
There is nothing wrong with purchasing less quality or cheaper priced equipment if that is what a person can afford. However, if your going to go at it full speed and want good results with little down time and less frustration get the best tool for the application. Saves on disappointment.. I am a law enforcement officer and the weapon I carry on the job is a Glock, which is department standard for everyone, wonder why they don't issue High Point's or Jennings.
There are just some instances where cheap is not the way to go.
BCOOP
Several years ago when I purchased a John Deere riding mower I had a friend that gave me crap for paying 2,000 dollars for a riding mower. He began to tell me I could have purchased 2 MTD mowers for what I gave for the John Deere, I just smiled and explained I only needed 1.
If you have access to some free scrap and a welder you can make the scoop how you want it and strong enough to hold up. I dig up to 2 feet deep on the beach which is usually sunglasses, and a cheap scoop would not last me 2 days. I only get to ocean beach hunt once a year while on vacation but I am out there 6 days a week 6 to 8 hours a day hunting both low tides and I want the best for the money, no flimsy crap.
There is nothing wrong with purchasing less quality or cheaper priced equipment if that is what a person can afford. However, if your going to go at it full speed and want good results with little down time and less frustration get the best tool for the application. Saves on disappointment.. I am a law enforcement officer and the weapon I carry on the job is a Glock, which is department standard for everyone, wonder why they don't issue High Point's or Jennings.
There are just some instances where cheap is not the way to go.
BCOOP
Jason in Enid
Active member
You don't want to pay $100 or more for scoop? That's fine. Buy a cheap one. Then buy another when it fails. Then buy another when THAT fails.
It requires a special grade of stainless to survive a salt envorinment without rusting. That stuff ain't cheap. Then it's got to be punched, formed and welded. You have a 100 ton punch press in your friend's garage?. And then weld it all together. Oh yeah..... welding stainless requires special tools and training. That equals $$$.
So why do SS beach scoops cost so much? They are worth it!
It requires a special grade of stainless to survive a salt envorinment without rusting. That stuff ain't cheap. Then it's got to be punched, formed and welded. You have a 100 ton punch press in your friend's garage?. And then weld it all together. Oh yeah..... welding stainless requires special tools and training. That equals $$$.
So why do SS beach scoops cost so much? They are worth it!
Jim Robertson
Well-known member
I know I use the TDI and Sov GT on the beach and in the water Infinium and Excalibur II. I am very careful with the TDI. I also water all of the water machines as as much as I can on the beach machines. I also cover the GT with the cover that come stock I only wish the TDI had one. I have to much money in those detectors not to take very good care of them. And I mite add I hope to get many years of use out of them.
I am by NO WAY AN EXPERT but I agree with BDA. I took the plunge got an Excal II. If you are going to do it do it right the first time so you don't have to do it again.My grandfather and father would tell me that. I am also the type of guy that will buy the best and if I cant afford it I wait till I can and that is also true for my tools I am a welder by trade I couldn't afford to buy a 220 volt mig welder so I bought a 110 Lincoln not just because it was cheaper it wasn't still over the 500.00 mark but because it'll do what I want it to do and I can still do what the 220 volt will do.My grinders are milw. and bousch because they are dependable they aren't cheap would I by from harbour fraight NO because I've seen others burn up in one day and I'll end up paying for it in the long run.
So this goes along with MD'ers you could go and buy a land machine and take a chance in the water and pay 300 or more to replace it when you could have taken that 300 and sat on it till you had enough and bought a water machine. If it doesn't say submersible to 25 ft or diveable to 200 ft I would stay out of the water does this mean that it will not have flaws no you are still taking a chance but if something does happen were water does affect it it'll be coverd under warrenty I don't think they will cover a water logged land machine?
just my 2 cents.
HH- drewan29
So this goes along with MD'ers you could go and buy a land machine and take a chance in the water and pay 300 or more to replace it when you could have taken that 300 and sat on it till you had enough and bought a water machine. If it doesn't say submersible to 25 ft or diveable to 200 ft I would stay out of the water does this mean that it will not have flaws no you are still taking a chance but if something does happen were water does affect it it'll be coverd under warrenty I don't think they will cover a water logged land machine?
just my 2 cents.
HH- drewan29
Thanks Drewan: I was taught the same thing and it is that rarest of things these days 'Common Sense'. Everybody wants everything yesterday even if they can't afford it today - this is the mentality that got us into the current financial fiasco we are in now. I buy good gear and I have the patience to wait until I can afford it - I owe money to nobody, I have money in the bank and gold stashed away safely. When I go out to hunt and I am ocassionally frustrated by the results I can't blame my tools - it is a poor builder who blames his tools.
Most of the time I have good results because I use good gear and follow good advice. Some will say I have good results because of where I hunt and yet I watch newbies come and go hunting the same beaches. I guess I'm just lucky or it could just be 'Common Sense'.
Most of the time I have good results because I use good gear and follow good advice. Some will say I have good results because of where I hunt and yet I watch newbies come and go hunting the same beaches. I guess I'm just lucky or it could just be 'Common Sense'.
BDA my father always said it is the Indians fault not the arrows!!!!! I too have been on both sides of the coin and waited until I could get what I knew would be the correct choice in GOLF, GUNS and (Yes Jane) WOMEN. Whatever you are doing it applies. You never have to wonder what IF again.
woodwizard
New member
before having to retire was in the custom woodworking/construction business- it was rough on tools and body parts- my motto has always been buy quality and by it once. there is a difference between inexpensive and cheap.ya can buy very good quality inexpensive equipment - but cheap is cheap and should remain where ya seen it-in some one else's possession. leave items made in china on the shelves.buy American whenever possible.