.....-4...-2...0......What are your views on these TID's...

[Gaz]

Hi guys.....


.......gonna be spending a bit more time on this forum now. I've had to sell my ETrac due to personal financial issues so I am relying on my XTerra 70.


So.....what are your views on the -4.....-2.....0.......numbers?? There are many people (especially in the UK) who are adamant these should be dug as they could be good targets.

We tried the last time we were out......blacked out -8 and -6.....dug -4 upwards.

All we found was iron registering in the numbers. Are people digging good targets with minus numbers because they aren't ground balanced correctly???
Will not being balanced properly skew the TID scale???

Gaz.

 

[David]

Maybe by the time you get more money Minelab will have a better new detector out to replace the E-Trac. Don't feel bad, I also have an XT-70(and Musketeer Advantage with 15" WOT) which is a very good unit but I want to also get the next generation of the E-Trac in the future, but for now I can wait a bit. I am digging way too many newer pennies with my XT-70 that are driving me nuts and I think the E-Trac is a more surgical unit to weed out newer pennies better if need be.

Will not being balanced properly skew the TID scale??? Gaz.

I do not know.?

So.....what are your views on the -4.....-2.....0.......numbers?? There are many people (especially in the UK) who are adamant these should be dug as they could be good targets.

The only thing I know on this subject is some very small gold at depth being about the very deepest point an XT-70(5) can go can show low -negative numbers, but when brought up a bit closer to the coil that exact same very small gold will show low +positive numbers.

 

[Gaz]

.....some good info there Dave......

I am sad about letting the ETrac go but it's just a detector. I have aquired a pretty big garage bill for my 4x4 so something has to give.
I love using the 70 so much....it's not a comprimise to me.

Gaz.

 

[Digger]

As someone who hunts for old silver, copper and gold coins in the US, I can honestly say I've not dug any "good" targets with negative TID numbers. Ferrous targets (negative TID numbers) are typically thought of as having magnetic properties. That is not to say that some of the stuff you'll be looking for over there isn't magnetic. I'm not familiar enough with your area to make that call. But I'd almost bet those who are digging "good targets" with negative TID numbers are either running in some seriously "hot" soil, have their detector running with too much sensitivity, have not ground balanced properly, are sweeping too fast or are not using the "best" coil for the site.

As you know by using the E-TRAC, all targets have both ferrous and non-ferrous properties. But the FBS detectors have a whole different approach to target ID than single frequency detectors. Single frequency detectors use time constants to determine where each target "falls" into the discrimination matrix. Where a target is placed in that discrimination range is determined by the phase relationship of the transmit signal as compared to the signal received back from the target. The phase relationship for "conductive" targets is determined by the target's inductance and conductivity. We tend to over-simplify ferrous and non-ferrous properties by calling the targets with negative numbers ferrous and those with plus numbers conductive. There is much more to it than that. But basically, ferrous targets on single freq detectors have magnetic properties. Conductive targets do not. Here is the link to a good article on Minelab's website, explaining how the discrimination of a single frequency detector works.
http://www.minelab.com/__files/f/11043/METAL%20DETECTOR%20BASICS%20AND%20THEORY.pdf

One last comment concerning those who claim to be digging good targets with a TID of 0 on their X-TERRAs.....they are out of their minds!!! There isn't a ZERO in the TID range of an X-TERRA. HH Randy

 

[Smithfire]

Hi Gaz

I'm also in the very sunny UK (hard digging ain't it?)

There are some top guys on this forum who really know there onions when it comes to X-Terras, and they're very helpful too.

I have had the same quandry as you, but after lots of digging up iron, never bother with anything under +2 on my XT70. Having said that I think the more you use the 70, the more you realise that the tones are probably as important the numbers. If I get that short, solid edged tone, I dig even if its a low TID number.

If I get a slightly dodgy signal that I think has some potential, then I'll turn over the top soil above the target, then sweep it again to see if it stabalises or changes totally.

Hope this helps

Clive

 

[Keith Southern]

on the 705....they will bounce though not be a lock ....they will go from say +10 to -2 or -4... But I have severe ground and this is what is to be expected.....but there trick is small nails will act like this also with the H.F coil but they are falsing high not being pulled down like a Pistol Bullet will do.....I dig lot's of small brass and small lead that read -2 or so on a daily bases..

sens wide open...you wont hear the targets if you turn the sens down any so it is required...

I know some say you can overdrive a detector in bad dirt but I have always found it a requirement to get the extra punch ...I know on an explorer and sovereign they say it's best to not push it hard but those 16-17 inch .58 caliber minnie balls will not be there if you drop off full wide open manual sens....Does false more like this on iron and hot rock's but when you are searching deep you get into a whole different mind set and learn nuances....


one thing I have noticed is the high conductor's like to up average and the low conductors will average with the dirt and pull down....Coin Hunter's probably wont notice the probelm as much as a relic/jewelry hunter.....But yes the lower numbers bouncing into the negatives that has sort of the round sound to them are worth checking out....

I hear in Virginia they dig the -8 in the iron dirt for the deeeeeep Bullet's ....


lot's of machine's call low conductors iron in bad dirt but you have the option to dig it with the newer offering's we now have.....

Keith

 

[7centsworth]

I have dug multiple civil war bullets that was a -8 . They were all really deep though. I do not know why they did it but they did.

 

[kirk01]

I have dug very small gold at +2 +4, but nothing good at any lower number.

Mild soil, Ga. clay.

Good Hunting

Denny

 

[S505]

First of all there is no zero but I have seen conditions where negative IDs can be good targets. I have seen IDs go up with depth and I have seen IDs drop with depth depending on the soil. I do not trust IDs below 4 inches. Assume the ID may shift a few values per inch of depth. If the target is relatively shallow this is no big deal (as long as you are in All Metal-not discriminating) because most of us will always dig values near those we expect to be good. As things get deeper, targets may no longer be near where they air tested. I have never seen soil that impacted silver or clad to the extent that I would not dig it. The reason is if the ID is shifting up, just about all coins sound more like silver or like bigger silver-a definite dig. If the ID is shifting down a few values per inch (and my 505 maxes out at 8 inches on a dime), the dime will sound off no lower than ~low 20's. Still close enough I may dig although getting close to pull tab air readings. Good targets that air test lower (some gold) can easily become negative at depth. I have not tested everyone's soil and have no idea how bad the shift can get. Maybe in some soil it is very rapid and silver could become negative. Plenty of folks claim to have good IDs at depth, so no doubt there are conditions where it does not occur.

I have never been able to replicate this ID shift with any setting on the 505 and it can not be prevented by any setting on the 505. I can only vouch for the two 505s I have tested, but don't think it doesn't happen to your detector regardless of model in the right conditions.

Here is what I do:
I carry a pocket full of virtually worthless copper pennies when I head out (that's what I do when I'm done if I am really lucky so why not carry a few when I start?). When I get to my favorite hunting spot, my first target is always six inches deep and its a penny, the exact penny I buried at six inches next to a good landmark. Yep, I bury a freaking penny and read it at depth to get an idea what the ID is doing today. Then I have an idea what to expect at that site. Everytime I go back I find that same freakin penny as my first target (hint-do not dig it). Maybe the ID will change as the ground matrix becomes less disturbed (if you subscribe to that one), maybe it will always be wacked out due to the soil, or maybe it will change as your detector ages and its electronics become fatigued. Heck, it might even read on the money all the time. Regardless, it will be good information to have and we can all do those future detectorists a favor by slowly reseeding the old parks.

Cheers,

S505

 

[Gaz]

.....some great info there guys.

I must admit.....I like using no disc and 2 tones. I tend to dig down to where the high tone meets the low tone.
This kinda avoids having to look at the TID numbers. I don't usually pay much attention to the numbers. I only really glance to see if it's locked
or if it's bouncing.
Even then.....if I'm getting a good solid high tone with bouncing numbers....I'll still lift a plug out. They usually then stabilise.

Thanks guys....

Gaz.

 

[goldseeker4000]

If I get a signal and it is saying 36,38, 40 and then dip down to -8, -6, -4 -2, but always has with it the positive tid as I circle around it while scanning the coil over target, then go to pinpoint and it does the same thing but predominately has the positive numbers, I will dig it. I have pulled many coins out of the ground in this scenario. Most of my wheaties have been found with this very scenario. If I didn't dig these signals and only dug 100% positive locked onto tids I would miss most all of my wheaties at 6" or deeper. As for a 0 tid - that is nonsense! there is no 0 tids with the X-terras'. It cannot happen. It will always be positive or neg or a combination of the two. If I get a signal that is always neg and I don't like the way it sounds i will not dig it. If it sounds like a coin but has some low tones but mostly high tones as I circle around target and has mostly positive tids and mostly good tones and pinpoints mostly positive tids but bounces in and out of neg I will dig. this is how I have been increasing my wheatie finds. I have been adjusting my sensitivity per Diggers instructions of first noise cancel then auto ground balance then adjust sensi starting from midway(15) pumping the coil up and down and raising the sensi till it gets noise or chirpy, then backing down one notch at a time and waiting for noise, then dropping a notch again until it goes away. I always noise cancel, ground balance and adjust my sensi in AM mode. For my area in Whitefish, MT I can use the sensi at around 25-27 but no higher as it will get chirpy. I then have to listen to all of the tones in 99 tone search mode and listen and decifer from high tones and ignore the low. I do get high tones with an aocassional neg tone. I dig those. It is often a coin but not always. Knowing what I know now about my 705, if I only dug 100% positive locked on tids I would only be digging clad, unless it is an old coin at less than 6" deep. I hunt with the 9" MF concentric coil and the 6" DD HF coil but mostly the 9" because that is all I have right now to work with. I think the 9" LF concentric or 10" DD MF would punch deeper and have a more consistant positive tid reading at depth, but,if you reach their depth boundries you will run into the same scenarios. I am looking forward to the day I get a 3 KHZ coil and see first hand the increase of my old coin finds and especially that of silver.

 

[Gaz]

....some great technique there........I just love digging iffy and warbly sounding signals.....only to find them become more solid as you lift a plug out.
The icing on the cake is when you find a coin AND a piece of iron in the hole!!!!
.....heaven!!
The last few trips.....my iffy signals by coincidence have been small lead musket balls.

They have been mixed high and low tones but consistant mixed high and low tones from various angles if that makes sense?!?!?
These have to be dug.

Gaz.

 

[Digger]

I've referred to that in my consistency theory! Location, sound and TID. In that order. HH Randy

 

[goldseeker4000]

Digger, location being where in the country a person is detecting in regards to mineral content?

 

[Digger]

No, I should have clarified and said it is the location of the target in regard to a blade of grass, pebble or clod of dirt. If the target maintains the same exact "spot" as you sweep over it from various directions, it requires further investigation. Next, I listen for the tone. If the tone maintains a consistency as I sweep from various directions, I look at the visual TID. Then, if the TID maintains the same number, when sweeping from the same direction, I dig it. Note that the TID numbers may be different as you sweep from different directions over the target. That can be caused by adjacent targets, uneven ground or other "odd" circumstances. (that's why I never say never). But most generally, if the target stays in the same spot in both hunt mode and PP mode, sounds the same as you sweep over it repeatedly, and TID's the same from the same direction of sweep, it'll be digging it. There is an article in the FAQFAQ section entitled Coinshooting that provides more detail on how I approach targets. HH Randy