I was metal detecting near Fort Davis and found a number of 45-70 cases but none have any markings on the head except this one. I am curious what they indicate. I assume the 80 on the right is probably the last two digits of 1880 and even that could be wrong. Anyone out there trying to stay out of the heat know? Thanks for any info.
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45-70 Case Markings
- Thread starter Explorer
- Start date
7centsworth
Well-known member
Post this on the whatzit forum and I garuantee you they will id it.
DirtyDeedsDugDirtDeep
Member
Hi,
You are correct in your guesstimate. You have an early inside primed casing; which I believe is referred to as a "Benet" (pronounced benay) after it's inventor.
The markings read : C- for carbine F- for Frankford arsenal (where it was manufactured) and 10-80 for October 1880 the date it was manufactured.
These cases are different from later government and commercial 45-70 cases in a couple respects: 1- they are of copper compostion; rather than brass, and 2- they cannot be reloaded (the spent primer cannot be removed or replaced).
It has been hypothized that these cartridges contributed to Custer's untimely demise in 1876 because being of soft copper, the case expanded and stuck in the Trapdoor Sprinfield's chamber causing the extractor to tear through the soft rim; thus rendering the firearm useless against the attacking Indians.
There have been historical accounts of frenzied troopers desperately trying to pry these stuck cases out with their pocket knives during a fire fight .
This scenario prompted the government to improve the cartridge design to one that is still in use today: the brass , reloadable cartridge case.
You are correct in your guesstimate. You have an early inside primed casing; which I believe is referred to as a "Benet" (pronounced benay) after it's inventor.
The markings read : C- for carbine F- for Frankford arsenal (where it was manufactured) and 10-80 for October 1880 the date it was manufactured.
These cases are different from later government and commercial 45-70 cases in a couple respects: 1- they are of copper compostion; rather than brass, and 2- they cannot be reloaded (the spent primer cannot be removed or replaced).
It has been hypothized that these cartridges contributed to Custer's untimely demise in 1876 because being of soft copper, the case expanded and stuck in the Trapdoor Sprinfield's chamber causing the extractor to tear through the soft rim; thus rendering the firearm useless against the attacking Indians.
There have been historical accounts of frenzied troopers desperately trying to pry these stuck cases out with their pocket knives during a fire fight .
This scenario prompted the government to improve the cartridge design to one that is still in use today: the brass , reloadable cartridge case.
DirtyDeedsDugDirtDeep
Member
Glad to be of service !
I did forget one detail that may have had somebody wondering : The reason these cases were marked either "C" for carbine or "R" for rifle is because the carbine used a lighter load than the rifle.And since the sights were calibrated for specific loads, it was imperative that each gun used the correct load for optimum accuracy.
Not sure about how much difference there was in the amount of powder(if any), but carbine loads used a 405 grain bullet, whereas the rifles used a 500 grain slug.
I own and shoot original examples of both versions of these trapdoor Springfields, and can tell you from personal experience, they kick like an old Army mule !
If you get to go back to this area, maybe you will turn up some fired slugs.
I did forget one detail that may have had somebody wondering : The reason these cases were marked either "C" for carbine or "R" for rifle is because the carbine used a lighter load than the rifle.And since the sights were calibrated for specific loads, it was imperative that each gun used the correct load for optimum accuracy.
Not sure about how much difference there was in the amount of powder(if any), but carbine loads used a 405 grain bullet, whereas the rifles used a 500 grain slug.
I own and shoot original examples of both versions of these trapdoor Springfields, and can tell you from personal experience, they kick like an old Army mule !
If you get to go back to this area, maybe you will turn up some fired slugs.
I would love to get to detect the old battle areas you guys get to detect. Out here I occasionally get to hunt some of the old military trails and have found a few mini balls and shells but they are far a few for me. Just found my first Eagle button with the V3i.
I had the opportunity to shoot a Springfield trap door at a re-enactment event at Fort Chadbourne, Texas May 2013. To my surprise I was able to hit a steel buffalo target at 500 yards from bench rest. They are an impressive rifle and do kick a bit. It seem like it took forever for the bullet to reach the target and for us to hear the ring. Myself besides detecting I am into artillery. The photo is of my mortar shooting a 3 lb. projectile. Nothing like the smell of black power in the morning!
Thanks for the info.
I had the opportunity to shoot a Springfield trap door at a re-enactment event at Fort Chadbourne, Texas May 2013. To my surprise I was able to hit a steel buffalo target at 500 yards from bench rest. They are an impressive rifle and do kick a bit. It seem like it took forever for the bullet to reach the target and for us to hear the ring. Myself besides detecting I am into artillery. The photo is of my mortar shooting a 3 lb. projectile. Nothing like the smell of black power in the morning!
Thanks for the info.
DirtyDeedsDugDirtDeep
Member
Explorer,
Thanks for the post and photo. The mortar looks like fun !
A lot of folks are surprised by how accurate those old guns can be if they are in decent condition and loaded properly.
I used to shoot competitively with black powder cartridge rifles at distances out to 500 meters, aiming at silhouettes in the shapes of different animals.
Most of the guns used were more sporting than military style, but still used cartridges like the 45-70 Government loaded with black powder and lead bullets ONLY.
It was amazing how the better shooters could consistantly knock down 10 ram sized targets in a row at 500M distance with nothing more than a set of cross sticks to support the barrel.
And the bullets were going so slow, if the sun was right,and you were using a spotting scope,you could actually see a silver-grey streak arc through the air toward the target !!
I think the muzzle velocity was in the neighborhood of about 1100 FPS.
When I shot at that distance, I could literally fire the gun, and lay it down before I would hear the CLANG of the bullet hitting the mark.
BUT don't think those old guns were weaklings !!
I used to pick up 500 grain lead slugs that looked like poker chips after hitting the steel targets.
Those bullets may be slow, but they are heavy; and could drop a buffalo at 400 yards if the shot was placed right.
Thanks for the post and photo. The mortar looks like fun !
A lot of folks are surprised by how accurate those old guns can be if they are in decent condition and loaded properly.
I used to shoot competitively with black powder cartridge rifles at distances out to 500 meters, aiming at silhouettes in the shapes of different animals.
Most of the guns used were more sporting than military style, but still used cartridges like the 45-70 Government loaded with black powder and lead bullets ONLY.
It was amazing how the better shooters could consistantly knock down 10 ram sized targets in a row at 500M distance with nothing more than a set of cross sticks to support the barrel.
And the bullets were going so slow, if the sun was right,and you were using a spotting scope,you could actually see a silver-grey streak arc through the air toward the target !!
I think the muzzle velocity was in the neighborhood of about 1100 FPS.
When I shot at that distance, I could literally fire the gun, and lay it down before I would hear the CLANG of the bullet hitting the mark.
BUT don't think those old guns were weaklings !!
I used to pick up 500 grain lead slugs that looked like poker chips after hitting the steel targets.
Those bullets may be slow, but they are heavy; and could drop a buffalo at 400 yards if the shot was placed right.