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Anyone tested the XT-Pro in rusty nails

Donut

Active member
It’s going to be the same as the Equinox 600/800 because the algorithm program it’s pretty much the same.
 

KSDfisher77

Well-known member
I havent really tested it so to say, but I got a old ghost town that is riddled with square nails & bigger iron that I hunt. Keep in mind this is my 1st minelab detector. I'm a Whites man at heart.
What I have noticed today after digging some square nails, they all had a VDI/TID of 97-99 on my new x-terra pro. Bigger iron was always 98-99 & if you lifted coil you could distinguish between the bigger iron & square nails. Whites called it wrap around I believe. It seemed to separate fairly good from what good targets I did come along & dig. I'm also glad Minelab went to a expanded VDI/TID # scale.
 

Old Longhair

Crazy Ol' Foole
Staff member
Honestly, my testing is done in the field. IMO, the controlled tests are typically close to worthless, mostly because they are either air tests or involve disturbed ground.

So far, my findings are about the same as KSDfisher77. My first two hunts were in a farm field where there had been a house that was burned off when it was no longer needed. It is a bed of square nails that good targets have to be sorted from, and in those kinds of situations you have to dig a few "iffy" targets, else you will surely miss good ones.
My first two hunts there were with the XT-Pro in stock configuration, and they netted a total of three coins, the newest of which was an 1887 IHP. Since then I've gone over that site with the XT-Pro and Coiltek NOX15 coil as well as my Explorer SE w/Explorer 8" coil (<-the good one), and neither one yielded a single additional coin or any other significant find. I did dig a few nails, but not a lot of them, so to me the XT-Pro holds its own in nails just fine.

KSDfisher77 also mention the "wrap-around effect", which is essentially the same thing as Randy's theory of "circular discrimination" that he described in his book "Understanding Your Xterra". If you imagine the discrimination scale being like the face of a clock, where the lowest number is right next to the highest number, and then think about how TID values "bleed over" to adjacent target bins elsewhere in the scale, it makes perfect sense that an iron target with the lowest value could bleed over to the bin with the highest value.
When you combine that concept with the knowledge that target bin widths are different depending on the frequency you've selected, it becomes even easier to understand.
This old illustration of the difference between bin width assignments relative to the selected frequency is still relevant.
1683986227400.jpeg

In this illustration you can see why a lower frequency is going to be more accurate on high conductors, and a higher frequency is going to be more accurate on low conductors.
The reason that this is important to us now with the new XT-Pro is because Minelab has given us a powerful new tool.....the "PRO SWITCH" that enables us to change frequencies on the fly. I've found that if I encounter a target that returns a high value and I switch from 5kHz to 15kHz, if the value drops 20+ points it likely isn't as good as it initially appeared to be. The inverse is also true.

I would encourage you all to play around with this a little in your own conditions on a variety of targets. You may find it very useful.
 

Tommy Boy

Active member
Honestly, my testing is done in the field. IMO, the controlled tests are typically close to worthless, mostly because they are either air tests or involve disturbed ground.

So far, my findings are about the same as KSDfisher77. My first two hunts were in a farm field where there had been a house that was burned off when it was no longer needed. It is a bed of square nails that good targets have to be sorted from, and in those kinds of situations you have to dig a few "iffy" targets, else you will surely miss good ones.
My first two hunts there were with the XT-Pro in stock configuration, and they netted a total of three coins, the newest of which was an 1887 IHP. Since then I've gone over that site with the XT-Pro and Coiltek NOX15 coil as well as my Explorer SE w/Explorer 8" coil (<-the good one), and neither one yielded a single additional coin or any other significant find. I did dig a few nails, but not a lot of them, so to me the XT-Pro holds its own in nails just fine.

KSDfisher77 also mention the "wrap-around effect", which is essentially the same thing as Randy's theory of "circular discrimination" that he described in his book "Understanding Your Xterra". If you imagine the discrimination scale being like the face of a clock, where the lowest number is right next to the highest number, and then think about how TID values "bleed over" to adjacent target bins elsewhere in the scale, it makes perfect sense that an iron target with the lowest value could bleed over to the bin with the highest value.
When you combine that concept with the knowledge that target bin widths are different depending on the frequency you've selected, it becomes even easier to understand.
This old illustration of the difference between bin width assignments relative to the selected frequency is still relevant.
View attachment 40480
In this illustration you can see why a lower frequency is going to be more accurate on high conductors, and a higher frequency is going to be more accurate on low conductors.
The reason that this is important to us now with the new XT-Pro is because Minelab has given us a powerful new tool.....the "PRO SWITCH" that enables us to change frequencies on the fly. I've found that if I encounter a target that returns a high value and switch from 5kHz to 15kHz, if the value drops 20+ points it likely isn't as good as it initially appeared to be. The inverse is also true.

I would encourage you all to play around with this a little in your own conditions on a variety of targets. You may find it very useful.

Honestly, my testing is done in the field. IMO, the controlled tests are typically close to worthless, mostly because they are either air tests or involve disturbed ground.

So far, my findings are about the same as KSDfisher77. My first two hunts were in a farm field where there had been a house that was burned off when it was no longer needed. It is a bed of square nails that good targets have to be sorted from, and in those kinds of situations you have to dig a few "iffy" targets, else you will surely miss good ones.
My first two hunts there were with the XT-Pro in stock configuration, and they netted a total of three coins, the newest of which was an 1887 IHP. Since then I've gone over that site with the XT-Pro and Coiltek NOX15 coil as well as my Explorer SE w/Explorer 8" coil (<-the good one), and neither one yielded a single additional coin or any other significant find. I did dig a few nails, but not a lot of them, so to me the XT-Pro holds its own in nails just fine.

KSDfisher77 also mention the "wrap-around effect", which is essentially the same thing as Randy's theory of "circular discrimination" that he described in his book "Understanding Your Xterra". If you imagine the discrimination scale being like the face of a clock, where the lowest number is right next to the highest number, and then think about how TID values "bleed over" to adjacent target bins elsewhere in the scale, it makes perfect sense that an iron target with the lowest value could bleed over to the bin with the highest value.
When you combine that concept with the knowledge that target bin widths are different depending on the frequency you've selected, it becomes even easier to understand.
This old illustration of the difference between bin width assignments relative to the selected frequency is still relevant.
View attachment 40480
In this illustration you can see why a lower frequency is going to be more accurate on high conductors, and a higher frequency is going to be more accurate on low conductors.
The reason that this is important to us now with the new XT-Pro is because Minelab has given us a powerful new tool.....the "PRO SWITCH" that enables us to change frequencies on the fly. I've found that if I encounter a target that returns a high value and I switch from 5kHz to 15kHz, if the value drops 20+ points it likely isn't as good as it initially appeared to be. The inverse is also true.

I would encourage you all to play around with this a little in your own conditions on a variety of targets. You may find it very useful.
Excellent post describing targets and discrimination, thank you for the post.
 

KSDfisher77

Well-known member
Honestly, my testing is done in the field. IMO, the controlled tests are typically close to worthless, mostly because they are either air tests or involve disturbed ground.

So far, my findings are about the same as KSDfisher77. My first two hunts were in a farm field where there had been a house that was burned off when it was no longer needed. It is a bed of square nails that good targets have to be sorted from, and in those kinds of situations you have to dig a few "iffy" targets, else you will surely miss good ones.
My first two hunts there were with the XT-Pro in stock configuration, and they netted a total of three coins, the newest of which was an 1887 IHP. Since then I've gone over that site with the XT-Pro and Coiltek NOX15 coil as well as my Explorer SE w/Explorer 8" coil (<-the good one), and neither one yielded a single additional coin or any other significant find. I did dig a few nails, but not a lot of them, so to me the XT-Pro holds its own in nails just fine.

KSDfisher77 also mention the "wrap-around effect", which is essentially the same thing as Randy's theory of "circular discrimination" that he described in his book "Understanding Your Xterra". If you imagine the discrimination scale being like the face of a clock, where the lowest number is right next to the highest number, and then think about how TID values "bleed over" to adjacent target bins elsewhere in the scale, it makes perfect sense that an iron target with the lowest value could bleed over to the bin with the highest value.
When you combine that concept with the knowledge that target bin widths are different depending on the frequency you've selected, it becomes even easier to understand.
This old illustration of the difference between bin width assignments relative to the selected frequency is still relevant.
View attachment 40480
In this illustration you can see why a lower frequency is going to be more accurate on high conductors, and a higher frequency is going to be more accurate on low conductors.
The reason that this is important to us now with the new XT-Pro is because Minelab has given us a powerful new tool.....the "PRO SWITCH" that enables us to change frequencies on the fly. I've found that if I encounter a target that returns a high value and I switch from 5kHz to 15kHz, if the value drops 20+ points it likely isn't as good as it initially appeared to be. The inverse is also true.

I would encourage you all to play around with this a little in your own conditions on a variety of targets. You may find it very useful.
Thanks longhair for that post. I've noticed a change in TID #'s when frequency is changed. Thanks again. Much appreciated.
 

KSDfisher77

Well-known member
Honestly, my testing is done in the field. IMO, the controlled tests are typically close to worthless, mostly because they are either air tests or involve disturbed ground.

So far, my findings are about the same as KSDfisher77. My first two hunts were in a farm field where there had been a house that was burned off when it was no longer needed. It is a bed of square nails that good targets have to be sorted from, and in those kinds of situations you have to dig a few "iffy" targets, else you will surely miss good ones.
My first two hunts there were with the XT-Pro in stock configuration, and they netted a total of three coins, the newest of which was an 1887 IHP. Since then I've gone over that site with the XT-Pro and Coiltek NOX15 coil as well as my Explorer SE w/Explorer 8" coil (<-the good one), and neither one yielded a single additional coin or any other significant find. I did dig a few nails, but not a lot of them, so to me the XT-Pro holds its own in nails just fine.

KSDfisher77 also mention the "wrap-around effect", which is essentially the same thing as Randy's theory of "circular discrimination" that he described in his book "Understanding Your Xterra". If you imagine the discrimination scale being like the face of a clock, where the lowest number is right next to the highest number, and then think about how TID values "bleed over" to adjacent target bins elsewhere in the scale, it makes perfect sense that an iron target with the lowest value could bleed over to the bin with the highest value.
When you combine that concept with the knowledge that target bin widths are different depending on the frequency you've selected, it becomes even easier to understand.
This old illustration of the difference between bin width assignments relative to the selected frequency is still relevant.
View attachment 40480
In this illustration you can see why a lower frequency is going to be more accurate on high conductors, and a higher frequency is going to be more accurate on low conductors.
The reason that this is important to us now with the new XT-Pro is because Minelab has given us a powerful new tool.....the "PRO SWITCH" that enables us to change frequencies on the fly. I've found that if I encounter a target that returns a high value and I switch from 5kHz to 15kHz, if the value drops 20+ points it likely isn't as good as it initially appeared to be. The inverse is also true.

I would encourage you all to play around with this a little in your own conditions on a variety of targets. You may find it very useful.
Longhair just so I'm clear, does the #'s on that chart you posted, are #'s 2-48 your TID/VDI #'s on them 3 charts? Thanks.
 

Old Longhair

Crazy Ol' Foole
Staff member
Longhair just so I'm clear, does the #'s on that chart you posted, are #'s 2-48 your TID/VDI #'s on them 3 charts? Thanks.
Those charts were made based on the discrimination scale and frequencies of the old Xterra 705, so it has essentially doubled with the new XT-Pro, and the frequencies are a little different, but the concept is the same.
 

KSDfisher77

Well-known member
Those charts were made based on the discrimination scale and frequencies of the old Xterra 705, so it has essentially doubled with the new XT-Pro, and the frequencies are a little different, but the concept is the same.
Thanks. Me coming from a whites all my hunting career, I was glad to see a expanded TID/VDI scale on the new Minelab machines.
 

Old Longhair

Crazy Ol' Foole
Staff member
Relative to stability..........
I've noticed that it depends on exactly where the target is within the coil's detection field. The TID seems to fluctuate more the further from the center of the detection field it is, which makes hunting in heavy trash a serious challenge.
Being a diehard 705 devotee, and being dedicated to hunting with All Tones in All Metal, I'm finding the Xterra Pro somewhat lacking in the area of tonal nuance that the 705 excelled at. The TID scale being doubled and contributing to the stability issues also has a direct effect on tonal response with similarly doubled fluctuations that make determining the actual target tone much more difficult. Clipped or scratchy sounding tones are less obvious due to the tones jumping around commensurately with the numerical TID.

I almost didn't post this because I'm not really ready to commit to these preliminary observations yet, but I intend to expound on this topic more after playing around with a few more tweaks to the XT-Pro.
The 705 had so many user definable features that if something wasn't working you could usually change something and often obtain more acceptable results. The lack of flexibility the XT-Pro offers the user is not conducive to the same sort of successes enjoyed by 705 users who were willing to delve deep into its capabilities.

Minelab has transformed the Xterra into a basic turn-on-and-go machine. Not that it's all bad, but it's not what I had hoped for the next chapter of the Xterra story. I understand why they did a lot of what they did, but IMO I still believe they could have made it better w/o affecting the cost of production or retail price point.

I will revisit this subject in the near future, and with any luck I'll have a couple suggestions to help smooth out operation.
 

KSDfisher77

Well-known member
Relative to stability..........
I've noticed that it depends on exactly where the target is within the coil's detection field. The TID seems to fluctuate more the further from the center of the detection field it is, which makes hunting in heavy trash a serious challenge.
Being a diehard 705 devotee, and being dedicated to hunting with All Tones in All Metal, I'm finding the Xterra Pro somewhat lacking in the area of tonal nuance that the 705 excelled at. The TID scale being doubled and contributing to the stability issues also has a direct effect on tonal response with similarly doubled fluctuations that make determining the actual target tone much more difficult. Clipped or scratchy sounding tones are less obvious due to the tones jumping around commensurately with the numerical TID.

I almost didn't post this because I'm not really ready to commit to these preliminary observations yet, but I intend to expound on this topic more after playing around with a few more tweaks to the XT-Pro.
The 705 had so many user definable features that if something wasn't working you could usually change something and often obtain more acceptable results. The lack of flexibility the XT-Pro offers the user is not conducive to the same sort of successes enjoyed by 705 users who were willing to delve deep into its capabilities.

Minelab has transformed the Xterra into a basic turn-on-and-go machine. Not that it's all bad, but it's not what I had hoped for the next chapter of the Xterra story. I understand why they did a lot of what they did, but IMO I still believe they could have made it better w/o affecting the cost of production or retail price point.

I will revisit this subject in the near future, and with any luck I'll have a couple suggestions to help smooth out operation.
I'll be curious in your findings/report. Do you feel the XT-PRO is missing/or lacking of something? I mainly bought it because its waterproof. I've been using it basically as a beep & dig detector. It's been doing pretty good in the iron for me using it as a relic machine. Thanks.
 

Old Longhair

Crazy Ol' Foole
Staff member
I'll be curious in your findings/report. Do you feel the XT-PRO is missing/or lacking of something? I mainly bought it because its waterproof. I've been using it basically as a beep & dig detector. It's been doing pretty good in the iron for me using it as a relic machine. Thanks.
It has two significant improvements over the old 705, which are the addition of the Pro Switch that allows frequency changes on the fly, and its ability to work in salt environments. The Park and Field mode choices are nothing but replacements for discrimination patterns we've always had, so they are really nothing new, just repackaged. And IMO, the expanded TID range is a detriment rather than an advancement, because it does more to cause apparent instability than it contributes.

I don't think that I like having to give up the ability to offset Tracking, and I'm not happy about sacrificing Prospector Mode that was a no-motion VCO audio mode w/Iron Mask which ran very deep and worked extremely well. These reasons combined with superior stability and audio quality make me glad that I still have my 705, and I will never give it up.
 

vlad

Well-known member
Honestly, my testing is done in the field. IMO, the controlled tests are typically close to worthless, mostly because they are either air tests or involve disturbed ground.

So far, my findings are about the same as KSDfisher77. My first two hunts were in a farm field where there had been a house that was burned off when it was no longer needed. It is a bed of square nails that good targets have to be sorted from, and in those kinds of situations you have to dig a few "iffy" targets, else you will surely miss good ones.
My first two hunts there were with the XT-Pro in stock configuration, and they netted a total of three coins, the newest of which was an 1887 IHP. Since then I've gone over that site with the XT-Pro and Coiltek NOX15 coil as well as my Explorer SE w/Explorer 8" coil (<-the good one), and neither one yielded a single additional coin or any other significant find. I did dig a few nails, but not a lot of them, so to me the XT-Pro holds its own in nails just fine.

KSDfisher77 also mention the "wrap-around effect", which is essentially the same thing as Randy's theory of "circular discrimination" that he described in his book "Understanding Your Xterra". If you imagine the discrimination scale being like the face of a clock, where the lowest number is right next to the highest number, and then think about how TID values "bleed over" to adjacent target bins elsewhere in the scale, it makes perfect sense that an iron target with the lowest value could bleed over to the bin with the highest value.
When you combine that concept with the knowledge that target bin widths are different depending on the frequency you've selected, it becomes even easier to understand.
This old illustration of the difference between bin width assignments relative to the selected frequency is still relevant.
View attachment 40480
In this illustration you can see why a lower frequency is going to be more accurate on high conductors, and a higher frequency is going to be more accurate on low conductors.
The reason that this is important to us now with the new XT-Pro is because Minelab has given us a powerful new tool.....the "PRO SWITCH" that enables us to change frequencies on the fly. I've found that if I encounter a target that returns a high value and I switch from 5kHz to 15kHz, if the value drops 20+ points it likely isn't as good as it initially appeared to be. The inverse is also true.

I would encourage you all to play around with this a little in your own conditions on a variety of targets. You may find it very useful.
George Payne first stated that discrimination was circular rather than linear before Teknetics was formed. He also said using higher frequency/energy could push higher targets into the iron range all the way around: did this also push nails up into the conductive range as I experienced maxing out my sensitivity on my Mk-1 which also upped trans boost (but did not at lower levels.) He also stated that "best" frequency for a given metal changes with its size. Whites first used the term normalize but I wonder if others where using technique too without using the term. On JBirds Forum when George was asked why a metal regardless of size does not have the same i.d. number it is because the larger the target the more of the loop's field's is absorbed and the more electrons transmitted and that is what is measured (along with reactance.) (I have experienced increased depth on deeper conductive targets near iron too. I asked George if iron could amplify a coil's field and he said he had experienced it in the lab, and Dave Johnson said there is more to it than you know.) The very lowest frequencies as above have some pluses such as almost not being affected by mineral and wet salt and being hot on low conductors. But they have some negatives too: poor discrimination of iron, very poor response to small targets and low conductors, and much higher battery drain to fill the loop's Q. (Is it a given that ML is not normalizing across frequencies? If so I can almost see a multimeter in the future that reads out for each frequency at the same time.) How does the XT Pro's compare with the Vanquish series? I would figure that the Vanquish would offer more advantages, being a multi and some models are priced close to the XT Pro.
(Did they ever get the iron bias problem solved on the Vanquish that was misidentifying a nickle and dime together as ferrous?)

 

vlad

Well-known member
Relative to stability..........
I've noticed that it depends on exactly where the target is within the coil's detection field. The TID seems to fluctuate more the further from the center of the detection field it is, which makes hunting in heavy trash a serious challenge.
Being a diehard 705 devotee, and being dedicated to hunting with All Tones in All Metal, I'm finding the Xterra Pro somewhat lacking in the area of tonal nuance that the 705 excelled at. The TID scale being doubled and contributing to the stability issues also has a direct effect on tonal response with similarly doubled fluctuations that make determining the actual target tone much more difficult. Clipped or scratchy sounding tones are less obvious due to the tones jumping around commensurately with the numerical TID.

I almost didn't post this because I'm not really ready to commit to these preliminary observations yet, but I intend to expound on this topic more after playing around with a few more tweaks to the XT-Pro.
The 705 had so many user definable features that if something wasn't working you could usually change something and often obtain more acceptable results. The lack of flexibility the XT-Pro offers the user is not conducive to the same sort of successes enjoyed by 705 users who were willing to delve deep into its capabilities.

Minelab has transformed the Xterra into a basic turn-on-and-go machine. Not that it's all bad, but it's not what I had hoped for the next chapter of the Xterra story. I understand why they did a lot of what they did, but IMO I still believe they could have made it better w/o affecting the cost of production or retail price point.

I will revisit this subject in the near future, and with any luck I'll have a couple suggestions to help smooth out operation.
Ty Brook would agree with you on the 705, it was his go to detector including prospecting, and he is a radio engineer that understands detectors and built vacuum tube VLFS.
 

vlad

Well-known member
It has two significant improvements over the old 705, which are the addition of the Pro Switch that allows frequency changes on the fly, and its ability to work in salt environments. The Park and Field mode choices are nothing but replacements for discrimination patterns we've always had, so they are really nothing new, just repackaged. And IMO, the expanded TID range is a detriment rather than an advancement, because it does more to cause apparent instability than it contributes.

I don't think that I like having to give up the ability to offset Tracking, and I'm not happy about sacrificing Prospector Mode that was a no-motion VCO audio mode w/Iron Mask which ran very deep and worked extremely well. These reasons combined with superior stability and audio quality make me glad that I still have my 705, and I will never give it up.
From what I recall the 705 was one of the better advanced VLF non multi's out with solid and deep i.d. and many more features, and changing the loop to change the frequency was easy. The XT Pro is
a beginner's unit with a lot of features and aimed right at NM in the low priced market. ML just had a major distributor/service center in Germany drop them for lack of products and parts too.
Going to be interesting and should be good for buyers.
 

vlad

Well-known member
Relative to stability..........
I've noticed that it depends on exactly where the target is within the coil's detection field. The TID seems to fluctuate more the further from the center of the detection field it is, which makes hunting in heavy trash a serious challenge.
Being a diehard 705 devotee, and being dedicated to hunting with All Tones in All Metal, I'm finding the Xterra Pro somewhat lacking in the area of tonal nuance that the 705 excelled at. The TID scale being doubled and contributing to the stability issues also has a direct effect on tonal response with similarly doubled fluctuations that make determining the actual target tone much more difficult. Clipped or scratchy sounding tones are less obvious due to the tones jumping around commensurately with the numerical TID.
Do you think the TID instability is a byproduct of a too narrow loop detection zone side to side, or is it the electronics, or is frequency the reason?
(These coils are far different in looks from the FBS ones on previous units and being able to handle several frequencies may mean resonance is not as closely matched.)
 

Old Longhair

Crazy Ol' Foole
Staff member
Do you think the TID instability is a byproduct of a too narrow loop detection zone side to side, or is it the electronics, or is frequency the reason?
(These coils are far different in looks from the FBS ones on previous units and being able to handle several frequencies may mean resonance is not as closely matched.)
My personal opinion is that the biggest contributor to the instability is the doubling of the ID range. It effectively narrowed each target bin, making the response at least twice as likely to bleed over into adjacent bins.

As far as the difference in coils go, there has always been a big difference between FBS and V-Flex coils, so any real comparison between the two is virtually impossible. Until I see a comparison between the old Xterra coils and the Xterra Pro coils that illustrates how the new Pro can switch frequencies w/o changing coils I can't offer much of an opinion on whether it contributes to the instability or not, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if it does.
 
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