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Anyone, why two meters on a (BFO?) detector?
- Thread starter vlad
- Start date
Excellent question. Something to keep in mind though, of the nature-of-people at that time, when it came to electronics:
Believe it or not, there was a time, in the 1960s and into the very early 1970s, where it was just *assumed* that if the electronics item was smaller, that it would, of necessity, be chincy and cheaper. So it's possible that Whites was just putting junk on, and making them bigger, as just Madison Ave. salesmanship marketing.
As an example of this mindset, I heard the following humorous story: The Jr. High school chum who got me into this hobby in the mid 1970s, had older brothers (15-ish yr. older than him) who had actually started the hobby in the mid 1960s, .... 10 yrs. before hand. And, of course, had those giant box Whites machines . Finally, in about 1973 or so, their youngest brother (my school chum) wanted his own machine. They went out to see what was then on the market, and ended up getting him a 99b or 77b Compass. Which ... of course, .... is a lot smaller machine than the Whites of the late 1960's. So the older brothers just *assumed* that they were getting their youngest brother a toy, just to keep the little kid occupied.
Imagine their surprise, when the much smaller Compass outperformed the much larger "more professional" machines ? Doh. Because, as we know now, size makes much less difference, since, components are shrinking all the time. But at the time, in american culture, it was just assumed that the "bigger the better" (home stereo sound quality, etc....).
So while the 2nd meter might have had some function, it could also be just superfluous to drive sales.
Believe it or not, there was a time, in the 1960s and into the very early 1970s, where it was just *assumed* that if the electronics item was smaller, that it would, of necessity, be chincy and cheaper. So it's possible that Whites was just putting junk on, and making them bigger, as just Madison Ave. salesmanship marketing.
As an example of this mindset, I heard the following humorous story: The Jr. High school chum who got me into this hobby in the mid 1970s, had older brothers (15-ish yr. older than him) who had actually started the hobby in the mid 1960s, .... 10 yrs. before hand. And, of course, had those giant box Whites machines . Finally, in about 1973 or so, their youngest brother (my school chum) wanted his own machine. They went out to see what was then on the market, and ended up getting him a 99b or 77b Compass. Which ... of course, .... is a lot smaller machine than the Whites of the late 1960's. So the older brothers just *assumed* that they were getting their youngest brother a toy, just to keep the little kid occupied.
Imagine their surprise, when the much smaller Compass outperformed the much larger "more professional" machines ? Doh. Because, as we know now, size makes much less difference, since, components are shrinking all the time. But at the time, in american culture, it was just assumed that the "bigger the better" (home stereo sound quality, etc....).
So while the 2nd meter might have had some function, it could also be just superfluous to drive sales.
Old California
New member
Hello vlad,
The second lower meter was for Mineral metals, (Hard Metals). The upper Metal meter for (Solt Metals). Will post a picture from White's material, recently a year or two back picked up a ton of whites older material from the fifties and early sixties OreMaster era. Personally myself, My thoughts are it's an add on feature many user's didn't need. Going by audio would be the same, with a trained ear a user can operate just as efficiently without a second meter.
These past few months, been working on my older Whites BFO models getting them operational again. All but one in the picture are working, have other Whites BFO models and although those work these are the older heavier 67.5 volt setup type I prefer to use. One BFO in the pic is a GhostTowner, originally setup for hip mount. Now, It's both a handle set up and hip mount. It's actually a nice operating unit, more sensitive but not as forgiving as the older heavier models as the GhostTowner requires more tuning. And it's lighter, using regular batteries.
Still use these at local parks or front yard school grounds, With smaller coils of course for dig all surface signal hunting. The bigger heavier models have no headphone jack, just a speaker which is fine. With batteries, And depending on coil used the weight is 8.0 to 8.2 pounds on these big boxes.
Hey Tom, I'll bring a couple of these earlier next year when we get together on a hunt. I think you'll be impressed they actually work and use 67.5 volts to power them.
HH, Paul
The second lower meter was for Mineral metals, (Hard Metals). The upper Metal meter for (Solt Metals). Will post a picture from White's material, recently a year or two back picked up a ton of whites older material from the fifties and early sixties OreMaster era. Personally myself, My thoughts are it's an add on feature many user's didn't need. Going by audio would be the same, with a trained ear a user can operate just as efficiently without a second meter.
These past few months, been working on my older Whites BFO models getting them operational again. All but one in the picture are working, have other Whites BFO models and although those work these are the older heavier 67.5 volt setup type I prefer to use. One BFO in the pic is a GhostTowner, originally setup for hip mount. Now, It's both a handle set up and hip mount. It's actually a nice operating unit, more sensitive but not as forgiving as the older heavier models as the GhostTowner requires more tuning. And it's lighter, using regular batteries.
Still use these at local parks or front yard school grounds, With smaller coils of course for dig all surface signal hunting. The bigger heavier models have no headphone jack, just a speaker which is fine. With batteries, And depending on coil used the weight is 8.0 to 8.2 pounds on these big boxes.
Hey Tom, I'll bring a couple of these earlier next year when we get together on a hunt. I think you'll be impressed they actually work and use 67.5 volts to power them.
HH, Paul
Flintstone
Well-known member
How many batterys dose it take to make 67.5 volts?
Old California
New member
Hello Flintstone,
I use a plastic modified battery module off eBay, it replaces the older 67.5 volt Eveready discontinued in 2010. Only, It takes seven 9-volt batteries in series which gives between 68 to 70 volts with no load. Its a neat setup, even looks like the older original 67.5 tube battery. They last between 80 to 110 hours, long term usage.
I'll post a picture tomorrow, each of my BFO tube models with the 67.5 volt battery setup has one. In fact, I may order two more. It is an ingenious setup, who ever invented this 67.5 volt module hope they make a bundle. Great for those using tube radios, or vintage detectorist user's like myself.
HH, Paul
I use a plastic modified battery module off eBay, it replaces the older 67.5 volt Eveready discontinued in 2010. Only, It takes seven 9-volt batteries in series which gives between 68 to 70 volts with no load. Its a neat setup, even looks like the older original 67.5 tube battery. They last between 80 to 110 hours, long term usage.
I'll post a picture tomorrow, each of my BFO tube models with the 67.5 volt battery setup has one. In fact, I may order two more. It is an ingenious setup, who ever invented this 67.5 volt module hope they make a bundle. Great for those using tube radios, or vintage detectorist user's like myself.
HH, Paul
What on earth ? "soft" metal versus "hard metal" ?? I can understand metal vs mineral swing of a single needle. But "soft" vs "hard" metal is a new one on me ! haha
And you're right about the lack of need for a needle in the first place. My first detector was a 66TR (circa 1971 to 1972-ish, I think). And right off the bat, the needle and plastic housing broke. But I never needed it. I just went by audio. That meant I also had no battery tester. But a dime-store external battery tester solved that problem.
As a 14-ish year old kid with that machine, in about 1975 or '76, I kept track of all my coin finds. I remember getting up to about 1000 coins. Then switched to a Garrett Groundhog when those came out. Sheesk , those were the days. With the 66TR, I was doing good to get 3" or 4" depth on a coin sized target. Utterly no disc. (foil would drive you crazy). So on a good day, doing old yards or old schools, I might come home with 15 or 18 coins. But I recall finding buffalos, silver washingtons, wheaties, etc....
As for the Whites older material, I am dying to see that. When you make a trip to the coast, can you bring that ? I will take some pix of some more interesting stuff, and share it here for all the forumites (with your permission). If you can make it 12/25 or 12/26, my wife and I are having guests over each day. You're invited. ( But I realize you're probably tied up with your own family). Just ... whenever you can get here.
And you're right about the lack of need for a needle in the first place. My first detector was a 66TR (circa 1971 to 1972-ish, I think). And right off the bat, the needle and plastic housing broke. But I never needed it. I just went by audio. That meant I also had no battery tester. But a dime-store external battery tester solved that problem.
As a 14-ish year old kid with that machine, in about 1975 or '76, I kept track of all my coin finds. I remember getting up to about 1000 coins. Then switched to a Garrett Groundhog when those came out. Sheesk , those were the days. With the 66TR, I was doing good to get 3" or 4" depth on a coin sized target. Utterly no disc. (foil would drive you crazy). So on a good day, doing old yards or old schools, I might come home with 15 or 18 coins. But I recall finding buffalos, silver washingtons, wheaties, etc....
As for the Whites older material, I am dying to see that. When you make a trip to the coast, can you bring that ? I will take some pix of some more interesting stuff, and share it here for all the forumites (with your permission). If you can make it 12/25 or 12/26, my wife and I are having guests over each day. You're invited. ( But I realize you're probably tied up with your own family). Just ... whenever you can get here.
Old California
New member
Vald,
The extra meter, I suppose would have been a helpful tool especially with beginners. The model I have using two meter's, one for metal the other for mineral's. Depending on were user set the threshold on opposite sides of null, the other meter will not operate.
I can see how easily a user can get confused with this model, so if a user was only searching for mineral's then only the mineral meter will peg right. Opposite if searching for metal, only the metal meter will respond.
It's the user's responsibility to set the tuner, With opposite ends of the null for the type of hunt they want.
Most users didn't have two meter's, they hunted with audio only and which ever of two they selected the other (mineral or metal) would go silent when coil was passing over. And the one they selected would respond with audio.
HH, Paul
The extra meter, I suppose would have been a helpful tool especially with beginners. The model I have using two meter's, one for metal the other for mineral's. Depending on were user set the threshold on opposite sides of null, the other meter will not operate.
I can see how easily a user can get confused with this model, so if a user was only searching for mineral's then only the mineral meter will peg right. Opposite if searching for metal, only the metal meter will respond.
It's the user's responsibility to set the tuner, With opposite ends of the null for the type of hunt they want.
Most users didn't have two meter's, they hunted with audio only and which ever of two they selected the other (mineral or metal) would go silent when coil was passing over. And the one they selected would respond with audio.
HH, Paul
Old California
New member
Hello Tom,
You bet, I even drop off the older Whites material no hurry I'll pick it up on next trip. Its a bunch of neat stuff and not just on BFO metal detectors, tons of material fifties to mid sixties.
Thanks Tom for the invite, wish I could will be working Christmas Eve and Christmas day both 12 hour shifts.
And thanks for sharing your TR experiences, you did well back in those days. Will be heading up there next month, we'll get together.
Thanks Tom,
Paul
You bet, I even drop off the older Whites material no hurry I'll pick it up on next trip. Its a bunch of neat stuff and not just on BFO metal detectors, tons of material fifties to mid sixties.
Thanks Tom for the invite, wish I could will be working Christmas Eve and Christmas day both 12 hour shifts.
And thanks for sharing your TR experiences, you did well back in those days. Will be heading up there next month, we'll get together.
Thanks Tom,
Paul
Old California said:
I find it hard to believe you've found something, md'ing related, from Whites. that dates to the 1950s. I read that .... yes .. .he did make inroads/experiments on metal detectors in the very late 1950's. But they were just a few custom made side projects, to their bigger business of geiger counters. Are you sure you aren't looking at geiger counter paperwork ?
I don't think Whites started getting serious till the early 1960s on metal detectors. So if you have anything , that predates 1960 , on detectors, from Whites , I would very much love to see it.
vlad
Well-known member
I became a multiline dealer in the mid 70's, to find out what worked-lots of variety; and size and number of controls (price also--too low, must be a cheapo) did have an effect.
Seems I recall Gardiner had one of the biggest with as many knobs as a vending candy machine (and he offered a 36" loop too.)
Garrett could have put the Deepseeker in a box 1/3 smaller. When Frank Ball & Dorian cook left Garrett and bought D-Tex, they offered their versions of the Garrett units in a much smaller housing.
Generally the high end units, Garrett, Whites, Compass, Fisher, Bounty Hunter (Barons) were very equal and I could sell whatever model I pushed the hardest.
But some people with knowlege did have a preference; if I did not stock something-I would order it.
But in S.E. Texas at that time it was mainly Garrett and Whites, (and a little back, Compass.)
(Did not sell a lot of A.H. Super Pros, but those that had one loved them.)
Seems I recall Gardiner had one of the biggest with as many knobs as a vending candy machine (and he offered a 36" loop too.)
Garrett could have put the Deepseeker in a box 1/3 smaller. When Frank Ball & Dorian cook left Garrett and bought D-Tex, they offered their versions of the Garrett units in a much smaller housing.
Generally the high end units, Garrett, Whites, Compass, Fisher, Bounty Hunter (Barons) were very equal and I could sell whatever model I pushed the hardest.
But some people with knowlege did have a preference; if I did not stock something-I would order it.
But in S.E. Texas at that time it was mainly Garrett and Whites, (and a little back, Compass.)
(Did not sell a lot of A.H. Super Pros, but those that had one loved them.)
Old California
New member
Hello Tom,
You misread my post, Yes I understand Whites BFO metal detectors are early sixties. The fifties material is mostly geiger counter, uranium ore material and information on public lands including information obtaining patents to a mining claim and much more.
Three of my oldest BFO are OreMaster, these are one of the first BFO metal detectors Whites produced. Early sixties, these OreMaster BFO are extremely hard to find especially in working order.
All three operate, Took me three years to find proper parts to get the third BFO going, Tubes, etc. Have several Whites Geiger Counters but I've yet to get one going, and may never these are extremely tough to bring back to life.
HH, Paul
You misread my post, Yes I understand Whites BFO metal detectors are early sixties. The fifties material is mostly geiger counter, uranium ore material and information on public lands including information obtaining patents to a mining claim and much more.
Three of my oldest BFO are OreMaster, these are one of the first BFO metal detectors Whites produced. Early sixties, these OreMaster BFO are extremely hard to find especially in working order.
All three operate, Took me three years to find proper parts to get the third BFO going, Tubes, etc. Have several Whites Geiger Counters but I've yet to get one going, and may never these are extremely tough to bring back to life.
HH, Paul
Old California
New member
Hello vlad,
No, Never heard of a BFO from Louisiana operating in VLF range. Sounds interesting, probably deeper than normal on coins for a BFO.
Do have a rare Garrett BFO operating with 455 khz, may be the only surviving model as Garrett only made 12 models. But, Garrett recalled those made and switched them back to 288 khz. Allan Cannon managed to keep his 455 khz Garrett, Allan passed the unit to me a few years back. Glad he did, it is extremely sensitivite and will auctally detect tiny gold nuggets or micro gold jewelry.
Still use it often, by far my most sensitive BFO in my collection. Someday will post it, probably the last surviving Garrett 455 khz on the planet.
Paul
No, Never heard of a BFO from Louisiana operating in VLF range. Sounds interesting, probably deeper than normal on coins for a BFO.
Do have a rare Garrett BFO operating with 455 khz, may be the only surviving model as Garrett only made 12 models. But, Garrett recalled those made and switched them back to 288 khz. Allan Cannon managed to keep his 455 khz Garrett, Allan passed the unit to me a few years back. Glad he did, it is extremely sensitivite and will auctally detect tiny gold nuggets or micro gold jewelry.
Still use it often, by far my most sensitive BFO in my collection. Someday will post it, probably the last surviving Garrett 455 khz on the planet.
Paul
thanx for the clarification Paul. Yes: Totally possible to find their geiger-counter products or paperwork from the 1950s. But their detectors (as for general assembly line production) didn't get rolling till the early 1960s.
Of the oldest BFO whites that you have, what do you think is the manufacture date of the oldest one ?
Believe it or not, there was still a few people using BFO's when I got into this hobby as a kid during the mid 1970s. And I distinctly recall that the Whites dealer in our city (we had a dealer since the very early 1970s) had taken a BFO in on a trade-in . He showed me how it worked @ a counter demonstration. I distinctly remember the motor boat "putt putt putt" sound. I do not recall what the box looked like, or the age of the unit.
Of the oldest BFO whites that you have, what do you think is the manufacture date of the oldest one ?
Believe it or not, there was still a few people using BFO's when I got into this hobby as a kid during the mid 1970s. And I distinctly recall that the Whites dealer in our city (we had a dealer since the very early 1970s) had taken a BFO in on a trade-in . He showed me how it worked @ a counter demonstration. I distinctly remember the motor boat "putt putt putt" sound. I do not recall what the box looked like, or the age of the unit.
Old California
New member
Sorry for the slow reply Tom, was going over material searching for the earliest White's BFO metal detector model.
Here's what I found to be one of the earliest model's if not the first, it was the Treasure Master BFO 1960 maybe even 1959, I read a testimony from a customer dated April 16, 1960. Will enclose a picture of the customer holding the Treasure Master and will add another pic same BFO for advertisement, this model had a leather strap for the handle.
The shaft was mounted directly underneath the housing, Karl von Mueller spoke highly on the model and even mentions he wouldn't trade this outfit for any other on the market.
My oldest Whites BFO are not as old as I thought, Based from what I read my three oldest OreMaster Gold Master models are one 1962 and two 1963 models.
This week, picked up another Whites BFO, it is a 1965 model with three coil setup and like it's older OreMaster brother it too takes a 67.5 volt battery. But only one set of 1.5 volt and a 9-volt battery. The older models only used one 67.5 volt and two sets of 1.5 battery volt setup no 9-volt battery.
The 1965 BFO works, but it's much bigger and heavier than the earlier OreMaster BFO which is odd Whites was making them heavier in the years to follow after the 1962 & 1963 models? Instead of making them lighter they made them heavier mid sixties, I know for a fact around 1967 they were starting to make them lighter because I have other Whites BFO models from that era.
First two pictures are of the 1960 Whites Treasure Master BFO, third picture are my four earliest Whites BFO. From Left to right (1962-1963-1963-1965), all of these work, each have their own 67.5 volt battery setup.
Each also have their own set of wooden coils, (3.5", 6", 12", 18"). Guess I'll have to start searching for the 1960 model, With my luck it'll be searching for a needle in a hay stack.
HH, Paul
Here's what I found to be one of the earliest model's if not the first, it was the Treasure Master BFO 1960 maybe even 1959, I read a testimony from a customer dated April 16, 1960. Will enclose a picture of the customer holding the Treasure Master and will add another pic same BFO for advertisement, this model had a leather strap for the handle.
The shaft was mounted directly underneath the housing, Karl von Mueller spoke highly on the model and even mentions he wouldn't trade this outfit for any other on the market.
My oldest Whites BFO are not as old as I thought, Based from what I read my three oldest OreMaster Gold Master models are one 1962 and two 1963 models.
This week, picked up another Whites BFO, it is a 1965 model with three coil setup and like it's older OreMaster brother it too takes a 67.5 volt battery. But only one set of 1.5 volt and a 9-volt battery. The older models only used one 67.5 volt and two sets of 1.5 battery volt setup no 9-volt battery.
The 1965 BFO works, but it's much bigger and heavier than the earlier OreMaster BFO which is odd Whites was making them heavier in the years to follow after the 1962 & 1963 models? Instead of making them lighter they made them heavier mid sixties, I know for a fact around 1967 they were starting to make them lighter because I have other Whites BFO models from that era.
First two pictures are of the 1960 Whites Treasure Master BFO, third picture are my four earliest Whites BFO. From Left to right (1962-1963-1963-1965), all of these work, each have their own 67.5 volt battery setup.
Each also have their own set of wooden coils, (3.5", 6", 12", 18"). Guess I'll have to start searching for the 1960 model, With my luck it'll be searching for a needle in a hay stack.
HH, Paul
Thanx for all your inputs and cool pix.Old California
New member
Thanks Tom,
Back in the late 60's and 70's the attitude was bigger was better. We use to scoff at the small boxed detectors and if the control box was made out of plastic we would called call it a "Toy." Being very light was also considered to be a toy...most of the good detectors had an expected weight to them. If one meter was good, two meters should be better?
Joe(TX) said:
Bingo. Good answer. It was just Madison Ave. psychology. Yes, in that era , a LARGE tape recorder was simply deemed to be better. A LARGE radio, was deemed to have better sound. Any electronic item that was small, was supposedly more of a toy, or cheaper stuff.
But .... as time went on during the later 1960s and into the 1970s, electronics shrunk, and IMPROVED at the same time. Consumer mentality changed. The size ceased to be a psychological impediment. But these old behemoths hearken back to that earlier consumer mindset.
Flintstone
Well-known member
Is this set up like the Garrett's Master Hunter ADS 7 ? It takes about 8 or 9 , 9v battery's. I have a 7 in the case with the Hot Head coils I have not used in 10 years or more. I need to put it to use.