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Could Whites make Ferrous conductivity reading vs VDI?
- Thread starter dan93
- Start date
Larry (IL)
Well-known member
I don't think that could be patented......
White's already has ferrous VDI's. Zero to +95 is non-ferrous and Zero to -95 is ferrous.
Page nine of the VX3 manual gives a pretty good description of Phase and VDI's
http://www.whiteselectronics.com/media/downloadable/files/samples/s/p/spectra_vx3_instruction_manual.pdf
White's already has ferrous VDI's. Zero to +95 is non-ferrous and Zero to -95 is ferrous.
Page nine of the VX3 manual gives a pretty good description of Phase and VDI's
http://www.whiteselectronics.com/media/downloadable/files/samples/s/p/spectra_vx3_instruction_manual.pdf
I am with Larry on this one in that you have Ferrous and Non-Ferrous VDI read-outs. The problem is that not all ferrous targets will respond with a ferrous VDI numeric read-out, nor give a low audio tone ... if they are of a size and/or shape that enhances their conductivity. I have personally owned several Minelab Explorer models with Ferrous/Conductive read-outs, and I hunt with several friends who use only FBS models, and I get a kick out of how many times they tell me a target is a bad old bottle cap, and it wasn't, or they sweep over some targets I have located [size=small](or that they decided to recover on their own)[/size] which hinted [size=small](with the F/C display)[/size] that they were probably good, but turned out to be those blasted crown-cap type bottle caps.dan93 said:
I have owned and sold and used many FBS models, and the Vision, V3i and VX3, and I can honestly tell you I enjoy the handier control set-up and audio and visual response of my MXT All-Pro and MX5 over any of the others .... and I am seldom fooled by bottle caps.
Nope, too many very good detectors out there now to go messing them up with more nutty digital behavior, at least as I see it.
Monte
or visual information that is too random, can result in a lot of confusion. All too often I have witnessed people, using ANY form of visual info be it simple Target ID suggestions or a reliance on numeric descriptions, waste a lot of time making multiple sweeps over one target to try and make it give a definite 'proper' reading, then after time wasted standing there sweeping and re-sweeping and wiggling a coil, they walk away from it because it failed to give what they felt was an 'exact' read-out.
Often, and I mean very often, they walk away from a potentially good target, or they end up recovering a piece of ferrous junk because it gave them a more of a 'conductivity' reading. I prefer to briefly use a visual display to help me determine what I might recover, and my recoveries are based on the audio response most of the time, not the display information.
Remember, we are really dealing with two sources of information .... Audio and Visual.
Furthermore, almost every manufacturer will tell you it is best to isolate a target from any nearby targets to get a better response, either audibly or visually. By that reference, to 'isolate' a target it is usually best achieved by making a shorter sweep length [size=small](so as not to encounter another metal target)[/size] and to narrow down or 'pinpoint' the located target. To do this the located target is then in-line with the search coil's center axis.
Discrimination, both audible and visual, is determined by the targets effect on the Electro-Magnetic Field about the search coil. What most people do not know or understand, is that Iron and Non-Iron have different effects on the EMF. Non-Ferrous targets, or some Ferrous-based targets that have a shape that enhances their Conductivity, will most often produce a higher or stronger VDI numeric read-out in the Conductive range that is more significant than a typical Ferrous range response.
Once a target has been 'isolated' or 'pinpointed' to eliminate masking from other nearby metal targets, it makes it more difficult to use tools we have [size=small](detectors and search coils)[/size] with in-the-field techniques to help better 'Classify' a target. Simple 'Classification' will suggest a target is quite probably Iron [size=small](in just a general Iron category)[/size], or probably a Non-Iron target. Once that is achieved, then we can try and get a better visual read-out that might help us 'Classify' the Non-Iron target across a broader range of VDI numeric readings that are best defined by the Conductivity of the target [size=small](size, shape, metal alloy, etc.)[/size].
A quick grab from Wikipedia to describe Ferrous Metal Content gives us this.:
"Outside chemistry, ferrous is an adjective used to indicate the presence of iron. The word is derived from the Latin word ferrum ("iron")"
"Ferrous metals include steel and pig iron (with a carbon content of a few percent) and alloys of iron with other metals (such as stainless steel). Manipulation of atom-to-atom relationships between iron, carbon, and various alloying elements establishes the specific properties of ferrous metals."
"The term non-ferrous is used to indicate metals other than iron and alloys that do not contain an appreciable amount of iron."
There are so many types of metals that can fall into the 'Iron' or 'Ferrous' category, and that is just what they are ... metals.
The 'Conductivity' read-out isn't really telling us exactly what type of metal a target is, but it is a reflection of the metals conductive properties. With Non-Ferrous objects some makes and models still struggle to produce a 'proper' response due to internal settings or operator control of settings, most specifically the Ground Balance adjustment. If the Ground Balance reference for the motion Discriminate mode, which we most generally search in, is too high, it can shift the ground mineral range and higher conductivity range such that targets like a silver dollar or a stack of silver coins might not response because they are treated more like the ground signal.
I have a lot of appreciation for the way most White's models are designed, especially with the more limited 'Iron' category readings. Some model, like my Classic ID, have 8 simple TID segments with the lowest 1 segment being for Iron targets, and the other 7 segments providing functional 'conductivity range' TID suggestions. I like my MX5 which has 4 Iron range segments and the rest break down the more desired positive conductivity range of targets.
Naturally, the type of sites a person searches can pose different challenges so far as Iron vs Non-Iron targets and most Traditional Coin Hunters will mainly have problems only with the crimp-on Bottle Caps. They are ferrous-based and are attracted to a magnet, but their man-made physical shape enhances their Conductivity which bothers some people with a higher penny/dime/quarter type display read-out. Even the broad-range numeric detectors like you describe have trouble with Bottle Caps. That more exotic type of display isn't really needed, in most hunt sites, because Bottle Caps and a lot of other similar Iron-based targets, like rusty tin, can be easily 'classified' as probable Iron and ignored [size=small](if you don't hear a nearby Non-Iron target audio blend in).
[/size]
Classifying or identifying a lot of Iron targets has been relatively easy even from using standard TR's in 1970 and maybe a little more challenging with the more 'modern' motion-based Discriminators since '78. I used in-the-field techniques back then, and I have taught these classification methods in seminars since '81 using two techniques I coined the names of [size=small](Quick-Out and EPR for Edge-Pass Rejection)[/size] to help speed up target Classification of the surface to shallower magnetic type targets. It's simple and efficient, and works faster to deal with sites that have a high density of Bottle Caps and similar problem ferrous trash.
I can use all the models in my carry arsenal, as listed below, and with each of them deal with common iron trash. For those who really like the idea of having a model with a broader range of numeric readings for Iron range targets, well, I guess they can go buy a Minelab FBS model or some other brand that provides that visual info. To me, it isn't needed. I just consider it a lot of unnecessary fluff that wastes a lot of my time.
Monte
Often, and I mean very often, they walk away from a potentially good target, or they end up recovering a piece of ferrous junk because it gave them a more of a 'conductivity' reading. I prefer to briefly use a visual display to help me determine what I might recover, and my recoveries are based on the audio response most of the time, not the display information.
I think it is more a matter of having 'sufficient' information, not 'less' information.dan93 said:
Remember, we are really dealing with two sources of information .... Audio and Visual.
Furthermore, almost every manufacturer will tell you it is best to isolate a target from any nearby targets to get a better response, either audibly or visually. By that reference, to 'isolate' a target it is usually best achieved by making a shorter sweep length [size=small](so as not to encounter another metal target)[/size] and to narrow down or 'pinpoint' the located target. To do this the located target is then in-line with the search coil's center axis.
Discrimination, both audible and visual, is determined by the targets effect on the Electro-Magnetic Field about the search coil. What most people do not know or understand, is that Iron and Non-Iron have different effects on the EMF. Non-Ferrous targets, or some Ferrous-based targets that have a shape that enhances their Conductivity, will most often produce a higher or stronger VDI numeric read-out in the Conductive range that is more significant than a typical Ferrous range response.
Once a target has been 'isolated' or 'pinpointed' to eliminate masking from other nearby metal targets, it makes it more difficult to use tools we have [size=small](detectors and search coils)[/size] with in-the-field techniques to help better 'Classify' a target. Simple 'Classification' will suggest a target is quite probably Iron [size=small](in just a general Iron category)[/size], or probably a Non-Iron target. Once that is achieved, then we can try and get a better visual read-out that might help us 'Classify' the Non-Iron target across a broader range of VDI numeric readings that are best defined by the Conductivity of the target [size=small](size, shape, metal alloy, etc.)[/size].
So, just what is "ferrous" and what is "conductivity?" They are two very different things.dan93 said:
A quick grab from Wikipedia to describe Ferrous Metal Content gives us this.:
"Outside chemistry, ferrous is an adjective used to indicate the presence of iron. The word is derived from the Latin word ferrum ("iron")"
"Ferrous metals include steel and pig iron (with a carbon content of a few percent) and alloys of iron with other metals (such as stainless steel). Manipulation of atom-to-atom relationships between iron, carbon, and various alloying elements establishes the specific properties of ferrous metals."
"The term non-ferrous is used to indicate metals other than iron and alloys that do not contain an appreciable amount of iron."
There are so many types of metals that can fall into the 'Iron' or 'Ferrous' category, and that is just what they are ... metals.
The 'Conductivity' read-out isn't really telling us exactly what type of metal a target is, but it is a reflection of the metals conductive properties. With Non-Ferrous objects some makes and models still struggle to produce a 'proper' response due to internal settings or operator control of settings, most specifically the Ground Balance adjustment. If the Ground Balance reference for the motion Discriminate mode, which we most generally search in, is too high, it can shift the ground mineral range and higher conductivity range such that targets like a silver dollar or a stack of silver coins might not response because they are treated more like the ground signal.
I have a lot of appreciation for the way most White's models are designed, especially with the more limited 'Iron' category readings. Some model, like my Classic ID, have 8 simple TID segments with the lowest 1 segment being for Iron targets, and the other 7 segments providing functional 'conductivity range' TID suggestions. I like my MX5 which has 4 Iron range segments and the rest break down the more desired positive conductivity range of targets.
Naturally, the type of sites a person searches can pose different challenges so far as Iron vs Non-Iron targets and most Traditional Coin Hunters will mainly have problems only with the crimp-on Bottle Caps. They are ferrous-based and are attracted to a magnet, but their man-made physical shape enhances their Conductivity which bothers some people with a higher penny/dime/quarter type display read-out. Even the broad-range numeric detectors like you describe have trouble with Bottle Caps. That more exotic type of display isn't really needed, in most hunt sites, because Bottle Caps and a lot of other similar Iron-based targets, like rusty tin, can be easily 'classified' as probable Iron and ignored [size=small](if you don't hear a nearby Non-Iron target audio blend in).
[/size]
Classifying or identifying a lot of Iron targets has been relatively easy even from using standard TR's in 1970 and maybe a little more challenging with the more 'modern' motion-based Discriminators since '78. I used in-the-field techniques back then, and I have taught these classification methods in seminars since '81 using two techniques I coined the names of [size=small](Quick-Out and EPR for Edge-Pass Rejection)[/size] to help speed up target Classification of the surface to shallower magnetic type targets. It's simple and efficient, and works faster to deal with sites that have a high density of Bottle Caps and similar problem ferrous trash.
I can use all the models in my carry arsenal, as listed below, and with each of them deal with common iron trash. For those who really like the idea of having a model with a broader range of numeric readings for Iron range targets, well, I guess they can go buy a Minelab FBS model or some other brand that provides that visual info. To me, it isn't needed. I just consider it a lot of unnecessary fluff that wastes a lot of my time.
Monte